UPS problem

Discussion in 'hardware' started by arun687, Apr 10, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. arun687

    arun687 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Posts:
    12
    hey guys,
    I've a HP premium 800VA UPS, and the PSU on my system would be 300W or less for sure.

    Whenever there's a power failure, the computer just restarts. Seems the UPS is not able to switch as fast or something of that sort, I've no idea why. For 1 second the PC switches off and starts of the UPS battery.

    However 1 thing to be noted is that, this happens only during a power failure. I've manually switched off the plug many times to test it, but all the time the UPS does its job and switches to battery without problems. Only during the actual power failure the PC restarts in 1 second. Also this happens most of the times, though not always

    Can anyone tell me why this occurs?
     
  2. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    The only UPS that I have found that is a true UPS is a Liebert PS. I run a Computer Assisted Machining controller that is very sensitive to power supply fluctuations and the Liebert devices are the only ones that pass the "pull the plug" test. I had found with other UPS devices that any dip in the power supply, such as the dip when an air conditioning unit would start up, would cause the controller to lose contact with the PC running it thereby ruining the job. I tried many different UPS devices some of then rather expensive and the only one that actually provided complete protection was the Liebert. All the other devices did not kick in quickly enough. This is usually not a problem with PCs as they have some residual current in the system that keeps them alive while the UPS kicks in, I can only suppose that for some reason yours is not doing this.

    http://www.liebert.com/product_pages/MainCategory.aspx?id=2

    I hope this helps
     
  3. Arup

    Arup Guest

    The APC UPS runs fine here in India, the local ones like Microtek and others are true junk, I have tried all of them and always go back to APC. Whats happening with you is that the switch over relay is on the fritz or the change over voltage setting needs to be reset, when power goes, it usually goes gradually instead of abrupt in some cases, that means stray voltage stays on line enough to confuse the lower end UPS, in case of APC and others, the switch over is instant and in case a certain voltage threshold is crossed. Have a technician look at it. HP India didn't make their own UPS, they had a deal with Microtek India who made the UPS for HP.
     
  4. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Whatever the reason the 4 varying priced APC units all failed the "pull the plug" test but the 1 and only Liebert unit priced at $129 worked flawlessly the first time out.

    I don't think I should have to tweak the battery, it should -- ideally -- the way its intended to. Liebert did this, so I have about $1,000 in APC batteries sitting around (I have them plugged into the video recorders, may as well get some use out of them) and the $129 investment in the Liebert.

    I guess you could say my opinion is firmly held:D


    PS: I have no affiliation with Liebert in any way except for being the owner of one of their batteries.
     
  5. arun687

    arun687 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Posts:
    12
    thanks a lot guys for ur replies....i'm from India and i don't think I can get a Liebert UPS here....

    the UPS i have is a new one barely 2 months old....I found the APC UPS prices to be significantly higher, so I went for the HP UPS as i thought HP is a good brand otherwise...didn't know it would turn out this way..

    I was wondering if it was any problem with my PSU or something...seems its with the UPS itself...
     
  6. Arup

    Arup Guest

    Tata sells Liebert here and judging by their service department, there is heaps of Liebert lying around, guess they can't take the Indian power lines too well. OTOH, I have ancient APC bought in 96 from US still serving me. I now live in a remote rural area where power lines are nothing but a joke, we don't just get fluctuation, we would have a 220V line run at 90V and APC handles them all well, all four of them. The best UPS period IMHO is Toshiba online but they are damn pricey. I have never seen them falter even when faced with the poorest of lines.
     
  7. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Just relaying my experience, can't blame me for that. I am glad you have a device that does the job for you,,,,I am also glad I have one that works for me.
     
  8. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Posts:
    2,272
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    First, I think you are very wise to put your system on an UPS - so do NOT think you made a bad decision.

    What else is plugged into the UPS?

    There are many good brands of UPS - APC is probably the best known, but Tripp Lite, Belkin, Cyberpower are also common brands. I do not know who actually makes HP UPS but I suspect their quality is fine. So I would wonder about (1) facility wiring - to ensure the UPS is being charged properly and to ensure all devices are properly grounded.

    Understand that power during a power outage is only the icing on the cake. It is the power regulation a decent UPS provides to smooth out the surges, spikes, dips and sags that makes a UPS a necessary component of EVERY computer around the world. Note that surge and spike protectors are NOTHING more than fancy and expensive extension cords because they do NOTHING for dips (opposite of spikes) or sags (opposite of surges).

    When you kill the power by hitting the switch, how long do the batteries hold?
     
  9. axial

    axial Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2007
    Posts:
    477
    bgoodman4, thank you for mentioning Liebert products. I contacted them via their web form on Friday and they replied with an incredibly in-depth response this morning.

    We have a whole-house generator (7KW) wired into the natural gas, with an auto-switch that kicks in after about 6 seconds of the electricity failing. Our APC-brand USPs can't handle the variations inherent in the generator power, so they cycle every few seconds while the generator is on. Even one $500 APC "server grade" product, purchased with direct advice from the APC tech support and supposedly recommended for this exact usage, does this. :mad:

    Apparently these frequency variations can be rectified by using an "on-line UPS" system such as the Liebert GXT2 series,
    http://www.liebert.com/product_pages/Product.aspx?id=53&hz=60

    They also sent a PDF on "Matching a UPS with a Generator", very useful information.
     
  10. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Glad to have helped. I had a similar situation with regard to advice from APC. I called them and explained the situation and followed their recommendation. Did absolutely no good. Then someone on another forum suggested I try the Liebert,,,,,problem solved.
     
  11. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Posts:
    2,272
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    Plugging a UPS into a surge and spike connector can wreck havoc too. There are devices you can put on the output side of your generator to condition the voltage - but they get pricey.

    On-line UPS may be your only - these supply battery power full time - so there is no cutover.
     
  12. axial

    axial Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2007
    Posts:
    477
    Another APC horror story.

    A couple of years ago we bought a brand new consumer grade 1200-watt UPS, off the shelf from Frys or CompUSA. Brand new, never opened box. For some reason that I'll never understand, I insisted that we plug the UPS into the wall first, before we plugged the computer into it. Requisite huffing and puffing to move equipment around as needed; irritation barely held in check. Honey thought I was being paranoid. I was insistent.

    Smoke and flames shot up about 3 ft off the desk. If only i'd had a video camera!
     
  13. Arup

    Arup Guest


    True, no UPS apart from Toshiba or Leibert online can run on gensets, I have a HONDA 5Kva genset which gives relatively clean power in genset terms and none of my APCs would run on it.
     
  14. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Posts:
    2,272
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    Ummm, I know this is a long shot, but perhaps it was because you did something totally out of character - and read the manual first! ;)
     
  15. arun687

    arun687 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Posts:
    12
    i got my pc, lcd monitor which uses about 28w of power and speakers of about 20w plugged in to the UPS....
    when i used to kill the power from the switch..i used to get around 15-20 mins backup without a problem...only it caused a problem in switching when the power actually fails...

    but from the past week i notice the backup time has considerably reduced..has come down to around 5-8 mins...i think the UPS is dying..
     
  16. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Posts:
    2,272
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    The batteries usually last about 3 years - how old are these?
     
  17. arun687

    arun687 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Posts:
    12
    this UPS is only about 3-4 months old...

    i think i'll have to call them up for a check up...its still under warranty so hoping that they can rectify the problem......
     
  18. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Posts:
    2,272
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    You might want to check your house wiring to make sure it is correct - everyone should have an AC Outlet/Ground Fault Indicator Tester. One is made for every outlet type and voltage - then when tech support tries to blame the source power, you can say with confidence the outlet has been tested by an approved outlet checker, the polarity is correct, the outlet properly grounded. Then check every outlet in the house - especially those around water.

    An 800VA UPS supplies about 560W of power, you should be fine. That said, an UPS should be used to protect your essential hardware - that would not include speakers. Printers either (especially lasers). You can, however, plug your speakers into the non-battery side of your UPS as those outlets usually offer protection from surges and spikes.

    LCD monitors are fine - in fact I run two 22" WS LCDs, plus my cable modem, router, WAP, PDA cradle, and the PC from my 1000VA (700W) UPS - I get about 15 minutes before beeps annoy me.

    But, considering every time a toaster, microwave, refrigerator, air conditioner, water cooler, hair dryer, or any other high wattage appliance cycles on and off, anomalies are sent down the line, it is the voltage regulation the UPS with AVR provides that is really saving my hardware, and the data within. Power during a full outage is just the icing on the cake. So if you have any of those type appliances in your home or office, or if you live in an apartment building, you need an UPS with AVR.
     
  19. arun687

    arun687 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Posts:
    12
    Yes, whenever my airconditioner kicks in...i hear a sound from UPS...and then in the monitoring software...it shows its operating in AVR mode....so the UPS does have an AVR mode....

    my wiring seems fine as well...i've tested it for grounding and all the outlets are properly grounded.....

    i've no problem even if i get just enough time to shut down the PC safely after a power failure...but the main problem is that the UPS takes sometime to switch and for 1 second the power supply stops and hence the PC switches off and immediately starts from the battery....so when the actual power failure happens...the PC goes off as well...even if its for 1 second...but this does not happen when i manually hit the switch and turn off the power....
     
  20. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Posts:
    2,272
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    It should be almost instantaneous - in milliseconds - fast enough to keep it from shutting down. I agree - you should call tech support.
     
  21. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132

    I had posted this before but will provide a quick summary.......

    I use a PC to operate a CAM (computer operated machining) system and the controller is very sensitive to any power fluctuations. Any time the air conditioner or compressor was turned on the power would drop and the controller would go off line as the UPS did not kick in fast enough. I tried a number of APC units but even the most expensive (over $500) did not resolve the problem. A friend then told me about Liebert UPS and I picked up a relatively inexpensive one (apx $100). Problem solved. This is the only unit that passes the PULL THE PLUG test.

    See here for more info http://www.liebert.com/product_pages/MainCategory.aspx?id=2
     
  22. 842x5

    842x5 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Posts:
    10
    not quite... There are fine products from APC, too. I have two APC units - Back-UPS CS 650 and BE 400. Both pass the PULL THE PLUG test. The CS 650 powers two PCs plus networking gear plus two LCDs, the BE 400 backs my DSL router and telephone system. The CS 650 works flawlessly since two years, the BE 400 since 9 months. Both have served power during a couple of brownouts and secured 24/7 operation...
     
  23. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Posts:
    2,272
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    I agree. I have 6 UPS here - from APC, CyberPower, and Belkin - protecting computers, big screen TV, and the home theater audio equipment. I live in Eastern Nebraska - the north end of Tornado Alley. It has been awhile since a tornado came through but thunderstorms and other severe weather comes through all the time. I don't have to pull the plug to know all UPS here switch fast enough - none of the computers go down.
     
  24. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Sorry, I should have been more specific - The Liebert unit is the only one that passed the Pull The Plug test with my CAM controller. I never had a problem with APC on my normal PC set-ups. Still, says something about the relevant units when a $500+ APC unit fails to protect in a particular instance (in this case my controller) and the much cheaper Liebert unit protects nicely.
     
  25. arun687

    arun687 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Posts:
    12
    hey guys, lately the backup reduced to less than 2 mins...
    so i called up tech support and they came and replaced the battery, but the same problem...the backup was less than 2 mins...

    today they finally replaced the UPS with a new one...the backup problem is solved..im getting 15 mins of backup as before....

    however dunno if the switchover delay which restarts the pc still exists or not....will use it for a few days and post the result here....

    thnkx a lot guys for the assistance....
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.