UK ANPR systems are one of the ‘world’s biggest surveillance systems’

Discussion in 'privacy problems' started by Minimalist, Dec 6, 2015.

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  1. Minimalist

    Minimalist Registered Member

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    http://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/42534/laws-and-regulations/uk-anpr-systems-surveillance.html
     
  2. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    The US is catching up :eek:

    That's one reason why I don't recommend so much using WiFi hotshots. There's too much tracking.
     
  3. stapp

    stapp Global Moderator

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    Most people in the UK know about the ANPR. There are several well watched reality police programs in the UK showing suspects being followed due to the ANPR flashing up in the police car as the suspects go by.

    They park in lay-bys and as a speeder goes past by the time they pull out and go after it, they know who it is, if he's been done for speeding before, what convictions he has (e.g drink driving) or even if the car has no valid insurance.
     
  4. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    I know it's been said before ... but what the heck ....

    "1984" was intended as a warning , not an instruction manual for Totalitarian states !
     
  5. stapp

    stapp Global Moderator

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    I guess other people have differing opinions.

    A gentleman I know said that he thinks it all a great idea. Due to severe cuts to the police budgets and therefore manpower, he said that the ANPR does in minutes what would take days previously.
     
  6. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    Oh , I totally agree on the point about police budget cuts .... and if it reduces the number of uninsured
    and/or possibly intoxicated drivers on the roads then that is surely a good thing.

    But this quote from the article in the OP is worrying , to say the least :-

    " The principal problem related to the use of the automatic number plate recognition systems
    is the absence of a legal framework that regulate its usage."
     
  7. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    People must want this stuff because people keep making this stuff.
     
  8. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    The problem is that the police will not, even now, obey the rule of law by having rules on their operation. Even "simple" things like retention time, access and purpose, and data handling are not agreed, and it varies by region. Given the pressure on budgets, who knows if they sell the data on? DVLA did for a while. Trust gets steadily eroded. And the principle of having bulk surveillance databases has simply been imposed on the population, against the rule of law. And, almost certainly, the databases are not effectively secured.

    The even bigger problem is that it then gets to a situation where there is not policing by consent, a "them and us" mentality, exacerbated by notorious rogue units within the Met.
     
  9. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    If people drive responsibly and with insurance there should be nothing to fear. Unless you're doing something illegal.
     
  10. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    It's exactly that !

    Where are the safeguards , the so-called " checks and balances " , who is supervising this entire system , who else has access to the system ...
    ... or can buy access / data ?

    And as for public consent ..... dream on !
     
  11. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    Very telling that the supposedly comprehensive and reforming UK Investigatory Powers bill says nothing about ANPR, CCTV, face recognition, other biometrics, drones etc. Nor does it mention little details like data sharing arrangements with however many Eyes we now have.

    Plus, there is no real public consultation on the draft bill, there are a few select committees nominally scrutinising the very underhand wording, with input from the usual suspects only. There's a Science and Technology committee, but it's really hard work scrutinising the output of state-funded lawyers, and the process has little of the character of the Senate committee's review of encryption, for example, when real experts gave real views in public session, although there was an oral transcript from an invited session provided here:

    http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...-powers-bill-technology-issues/oral/24378.pdf

    But this is primarily some ISPs focussed on what they'll be asked to do, plus a few University pundits.
     
  12. Minimalist

    Minimalist Registered Member

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    Collecting this data without law that would regulate it is IMO reason to fear. Even if I don't do anything illegal I don't want everyone to know where and when I was driving. I just like a little bit of privacy.
     
  13. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    There's no such thing as privacy anymore anyway. Again, if you're doing nothing illegal and aren't a terrorist or something you have nothing to fear.
     
  14. Minimalist

    Minimalist Registered Member

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    I'm not afraid. I just don't like the idea of being under constant control, when everyone knows what I am doing or in this case where I am (was) driving.
     
  15. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    Technically, you aren't under 'constant control' as 'everyone' doesn't know what you are doing, where you are or have been. There is no need for anyone to suffer paranoia from ANPR. Or, in fact, to make comparisons with tendentiously allegorical 20th century George Orwell novels.
     
  16. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    I'm not clear why you're persisting with that assertion, in the face of counter-examples and real-life evidence.

    Whereas you might reasonably dispute how much you have to fear, you cannot say to others that they have "nothing" to fear, because that is individual and circumstance dependent, and there are real-life problems for the innocent. To assert otherwise, you'd have to presume saintly individuals and institutions operating these systems, and zero mistakes including false positives.

    You'd also have to explain why there are specific provision in constitution and law to protect people from exactly what you claim they have nothing to fear from. I happen to know some cops, who certainly have to be careful with accessing the PNC for things like "lovint", and that's specifically there because they have been accessed illegally to the detriment and harm of the innocent.

    These databases are like a toxic radioactive waste dump, an accident waiting to happen. The more data you keep, for the longer you keep it, and the more people you share it around, the higher the risk. To the innocent.

    You'd also have to explain why, since there is an easy mechanism by which everyone's numberplate going by can be checked against a list of actual suspects, those without tax or insurance etc, then immediately discarded if they don't match, why the mass indiscriminate collection and retention (for up to 7 years!!!!!) - is remotely constitutional or necessary. That's way beyond what I want from the state, because it threatens freedom of association, which quite specifically, the Met have recently and repeatedly abused against the innocent. who you claim have nothing to fear.
     
  17. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    ~ my bolding above ~

    I don't want to make an issue on this point alone .... but I feel compelled to say that this line of reasoning is now completely moribund.

    In our post - Snowden world we have everything to fear from this sort of unregulated mass surveillance .

    Where does it end ?

    Have you tied your shoe-laces in the state-approved fashion today ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  18. Minimalist

    Minimalist Registered Member

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    I'm not from UK so ANPR doesn't collect my data, but similar ideas and technologies are introduced in my country also. If system records all plates and stores that info in database then people are under constant control. If there are no rules who can use that info then people can assume that everyone can. Also how do you know that this data is safe? You just trust government that they can't get hacked?
     
  19. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    Well, you'll have to supply the examples of real-life evidence and all the other blatant abuses against the innocent, as I'm obviously oblivious to them. Trying to 'spin' the premise or concept of having nothing to fear is also a tad strange to me. I don't see how databases of individual automotive journeys are particularly concerning or of any interest to anyone outside of law enforcement agencies. Maybe I just don't buy into the hysteria about CCTV and data collection.

    'These databases are like a toxic radioactive waste dump, an accident waiting to happen.'

    Nice combination of simile and metaphor, but a bit of hyperbole if you ask me. 1984 was a novel, not a manifesto. It isn't really going to happen because of automatic number plate recording.
     
  20. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    You may have everything to fear, meanwhile, those of us without paranoia are doing OK. As I can effectively only utilise my left hand in tying my shoelaces, I do indeed use the way the (state funded) NHS occupational therapist (a lovely young woman) taught me to.
     
  21. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    Quod erat demonstrandum.
     
  22. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    Well, I don't have to do anything actually, and don't mind at all if you're happy and oblivious and don't care for constitutional and human rights, carry on. I didn't mention 1984, and I've worked in computing and networking all my working life, and lived many different parts of the world, so I'm perhaps less insouciant than you.

    There are many threads on this forum which document the many ways in which there is something to fear from mass surveillance databases of all sorts. For ANPR, there are existing examples of people getting routinely stopped because their vehicle was previously seen near a legal public demonstration. A man who was repeatedly stopped. and tasered because his vehicle had previously belonged to a gangster (he won a payout from the Met, but could only prosecute because he was very rich and very angry, and the Met squandered a huge amount of public money defending the case, hundreds of £k). Normal people have no redress for rubbish in these databases, and there's no way of challenging them This is what the rule of law's about, that's what data protection legislation is about, and it's being flouted.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32058565

    That's without any grander worries about what will be done with data mining and restrictions on peaceful, legitimate protest. and freedom to associate. Losing the data, selling the data, abusing the data.

    If you'd like a frinstance from the US, have a look at this:

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/thre...-plate-readers-see-your-certain-areas.381930/

    The only reason I care to provide these examples is for other readers, I have no expectation or desire that you will change your views.
     
  23. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    The Police make mistakes, no one denies that. Governments are often incompetent and new technology is far from being foolproof.

    'Well, I don't have to do anything actually'

    And yet ... *scratches chin in a perplexed manner* ... you obviously feel the need to respond to me.

    'and don't mind at all if you're happy and oblivious'

    That's very gracious of you, I'd hate for you to have to stoop to condescension in any way, shape or form.

    'and don't care for constitutional and human rights, carry on.'

    Bit of a straw man there. My not being paranoid of police databases doesn't automatically suggest my condoning constitutional (we have a written constitution?) violations or human rights abuses. Nice try, but no cigar.

    'There are many threads on this forum which document the many ways in which there is something to fear from mass surveillance databases of all sorts.'

    Yes, and they are all very entertaining, although often unrealistic and slightly hysterical at times.

    'Normal people have no redress for rubbish in these databases, and there's no way of challenging them This is what the rule of law's about, that's what data protection legislation is about, and it's being flouted.'

    Ostensibly, this case looks like you have a valid point. But this is just one case and seems to be a product of police incompetence more than anything else. An instance of database incompetence happened over twenty years ago with a mistake in DNA records which caused the police to arrest a wheelchair bound man for a series of rapes that happened hundreds of miles from where he actually lived. I'm not even sure the information was actually stored on a computer then. These are obviously troubling incidents but seem more associated with lack of training and familiarity with new technology to me than anything more sinister.

    Maybe I just aren't paranoid enough.
     
  24. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    Please , do not blame deBoetie for bringing George Orwell into this .
    As far as I know , he is entirely innocent on that score ..... it was me wot dun it ( see post #4 ).

    And you can blame me for the " shoe-laces " business as well .... ..... guilty !
     
  25. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    The Orwellian trope is a common one invoked by these sorts of threads. I just don't do paranoia. I wonder what Winston Smith would have thought?
     
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