U.S. Is Working to Ease Wiretaps on the Internet

Discussion in 'privacy problems' started by Osaban, Sep 27, 2010.

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  1. Dermot7

    Dermot7 Registered Member

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  2. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about what I say to be very honest. Your little "Wiki pic" means nothing when, if you bothered to look, proved that more than 3 measly billion was spent last year. And, foreign aid, come on, are you really that naive? You've had great posts here before showing that you AREN'T stupid, yet you seem to only consider what is publicly reported as spent as the only money spent. I seriously think you know MUCH better than that. "All that we know"?...Caspian, please, do you seriously think "we" know much of anything? Mainstream sources are the exact ones feeding people all of the nonsense, the lies, and the scare tactics.

    If your "mainstream sources" were really telling you what was going on, you'd want to overthrow multiple governments and the U.N as fast as you possibly could. To be more on-topic, the government HAS to ease wiretaps, they HAVE to invade any and everyone's privacy, they HAVE to bypass Congress and others who get in the way, and, they have absolutely no choice but to do all this in the name of security. Otherwise, they wouldn't have a chance in hell of a world government, which is EXACTLY what you are seeing happen.

    Scaring you, me, and everyone else into giving up our rights and letting the government take over almost every aspect of our lives, is the only way they'll get away with what they are doing. The U.S is not alone in this, the U.K is way ahead of the U.S in this plan. Every supposed "victory" there or here in the States, is no victory at all, it's simple, intentional backpedaling by the governments. I once gave an example of gas, you get used to cheap gasoline, the government suddenly raises it sky high. You and many others throw fits, and, slowly, it goes back down. Months and months pass by, gas is raised slightly, but not to where it was when you complained.

    No one complains, the price stays this way for months more. Then, it is raised again, and this process continues until the price is where it was when you complained. Except, now, no one is complaining. Why? You got used to higher prices, you just couldn't handle it all in one shot. The same thing is happening with security and privacy. The public can't handle that kind of intrusion to that extent in one go, they have to be conditioned. There's one problem right now though, President Obama. Remember everyone claiming George Bush was a "cowboy"? Well, you've got the same thing in Obama. The only difference is, Obama is not afraid to stare you straight in the eye and tell you what he's going to do.

    Obama is a great asset to have to the U.N and others looking for the one world government. He's completely on-board the idea and is making a lot of progress in furthering the goal. However, his "in your face" tactics are a bit much even for them, let alone his own citizens. Congress, even though there are many in there like him, does not like being tossed aside either and shown as irrelevant. His controlling and strong-arm tactics are going against him, which is the reason he almost assuredly will not be back for another term. Does that matter? No. The damage has already been done, the laws have already been passed. Even if the U.S got the best President we've ever had since creation of the country, it would take decades to "right the ship" so to speak.

    I personally think Obama knew he was in for a short ride, it would explain very easily the attitude he has towards public opinion and even Congress. He cares what the U.N thinks, which is very telling to me. Even unions and the major advocacy groups that got him into office in the first place, have suddenly started backing away slowly but surely. In my mind, he's served his purpose, and another, "more kinder, gentler" leader will take the reigns and continue where he left off, albeit working more slowly towards the final goal. Obama was the Mafia "leg breaker", the guy who shows up at your door telling, and, showing you that the boss was displeased. I truly believe the bosses are on their way.
     
  3. CloneRanger

    CloneRanger Registered Member

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    @ dw426

    Lots of nice points in there :thumb:

    The gasoline topic is a good one. A perfect example of how "They" do it, and keep doing it to us, over and over, year after year :thumbd: And what do they then spend ALL those tax $ on, yep spying etc on us and invading etc the world, whilst enriching themselves and their buddies/families etc :thumbd: Well it's got to stop, and it will before too long, but not before a hack of a lot of **** happens in the meantime. So get prepared for the ride, which Will be very bumpy.
     
  4. hierophant

    hierophant Registered Member

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    It's just good cop / bad cop. Con game.
     
  5. nix

    nix Registered Member

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    Well, we're all on the same page today:D

    From Clone Ranger:

    Well it's got to stop, and it will before too long, but not before a hack of a lot of **** happens in the meantime.

    I know that's a typo, Clone, but it still gave me a big smile ;)
     
  6. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    I'm afraid we disagree there, Clone. What we're seeing right now is merely the "foreplay". We haven't even reached Britain's level of spying and privacy loss yet, never mind the end goal of those behind the plan. I sometimes sit back and watch, amazed at people. I hear all of the discussions about Truecrypting drives, chaining proxies, the freedom cries, the "I'll be damned if they invade me" speeches. For some reason, people, especially in the U.S, think they are somehow special and that they can't be controlled, that they have much more power because they can run over to the nearest elementary school and vote, and everything will be just fine because THEY chose who got to go to Washington. They think the Constitution protects them and that Iran, China, Libya, any number of less than free countries can't happen to them.

    They're so confident in their "plans to fool the Man" and their rights, that they are completely oblivious to the fact that their "nightmare scenario" is already here. They don't understand that they aren't the ones with the say so anymore, and haven't been for many years. The U.S government doesn't report to them anymore, they report to the U.N. The U.S has involved themselves in so many outside affairs, cashed in so many favors, made so many deals, that even its own government is ruled by outsiders. Will things get better eventually, they sure will. But, you're not going to enjoy the times beforehand.
     
  7. Pfipps

    Pfipps Registered Member

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    Still, the graph you put there is dubious, and inflated to essentially be "anti-military" since there is "Foreign aid" in the defense budget. One elephant in the room is the countless military subsidies we have given to Europe since WWII. They could have never had their massive income transfer programs without them.

    The main issue still is about surveillance, and how far our liberties and rights should be protected. From what I know about intelligence, the issue is more about too much garbage information, and not enough pertinent information. Like for example, ECHELON gives out so much useless stuff, what ever crime or terrorist attack or act of war that it may record may be filtered out by some schmuck at the NSA when its too late.
     
  8. hierophant

    hierophant Registered Member

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    OK, so this is OT, except as an alternate reading of the title.

    How hard are fiber taps to install? And how hard are they to detect? Just curious.
     
  9. CloneRanger

    CloneRanger Registered Member

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    Glad to hear it :)

    Yes it was, but it could also have been a freudien slip :D Anyway good to see you :) and it has me too ;)

    I don't see how, as i was agreeing with you ?

    Yes i know, and FULLY understand "Their" MO and who the players in front, and More importantly behind the curtain, are etc etc. I just don't want to say too much about it all on here, due to you should know why, Without actually saying it ;)

    And i had already posted this

    "Well it's got to stop, and it will before too long, but not before a hack of a lot of **** happens in the meantime. So get prepared for the ride, which Will be very bumpy."

    Which is in agreement with you.

    @ Pfipps

    ECHELON is old hat these days, but i know what you mean ;)

    What people should be Really concerned with & get :mad: about is, what info they do Actually get, and do NOT act upon on Purpose. Thereby ALLOWING all sorts of bad things to happen against the people "They" are "supposed" to be protecting, with our tax $ Find out why "They" do that, and you'll be shocked to the core :eek:
     
  10. CloneRanger

    CloneRanger Registered Member

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    Easy peasy, and they are now Already installed at various locations around the USA, and elsewhere. ALL pipes in/out of the USA are now tapped :eek: And NOT just in the USA but Lots of other coutries too :eek: There is a Massive datacenter being built right now by the NSA to help feed through etc and store ALL the info etc.

    We can't directly, as these are optical taps, not like the old days, so they appear invisable to us. But look in your FW logs and do some reverse DNSing on what you see, you'll be Amazed at "Who" you find :eek:
     
  11. hierophant

    hierophant Registered Member

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    Could we install our own? I mean, with thousands of miles of fiber, there must be relatively unsecured areas.
     
  12. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Sorry, Clone, I didn't read clearly enough, though perhaps our idea of when things will get better may differ. I personally don't see any "light at the end of the tunnel" being visible for at least a couple of decades, and that's being a bit optimistic AND after a semi-decent President who gets us out of the United Nations and away from their control. Getting away from the U.N is about the only hope the U.S has of even beginning to change things around.
     
  13. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Install your own lines? I suppose you could, sure. However, we're leaving out the ugly fact that SOMEBODY has to provide internet service, and that is where the control, privacy, and security issues show up. We can talk about "borrowing" Wi-Fi all we want, but there may not be any Wi-Fi to "borrow" in an "unsecured area" meaning out in the middle of nowhere.
     
  14. CloneRanger

    CloneRanger Registered Member

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    Good luck on that :D That tech is only available to you know who, and would cost a Lot of $ They pay for it with Your tax $ :(

    Anyway supposing you knew some clever person with the skills to build one, and install it, where would you place it ? how would you get in ? and how would you link to it ? what would you tapping ? and why ?

    More than thousands !

    Depends what you mean by Unsecured ? When you connect to the internet it has to go through your ISP, that's the weakest link, and where the tapp feeds etc are located. The bidirectional feeds are then linked to you know who.
     
  15. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    In other words, there's nowhere to hide. Just because nobody is questioning you or knocking on your door,, doesn't mean you aren't being watched.
     
  16. hierophant

    hierophant Registered Member

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    No, I mean tapping into trunk lines, and using long-distance mesh wifi.
     
  17. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Oh okay. But still (not having a clue how such a setup works), I would be concerned about the ability to watch these. It still boils down to access and who provides that access. The parts we can't control are the ones that do us in. In my opinion, encrypted connections and data are all well and good, but only for as long as these methods are legal. It doesn't take much for things to change, all that has to be done is for a government to deem these methods detrimental to security, and with a snap of a finger, they are legally gone.

    You of course still have the option to illegally use them in such a case, however, outside of this forum and other security-minded venues, it will be much harder to find those willing to risk incarceration or more for doing so. In my view, these methods already are cause for suspicion for most ISPs and especially law enforcement and government. Our tools aren't very hard to take away, whether we want to believe that or not.
     
  18. hierophant

    hierophant Registered Member

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    Yes, that is a serious issue.

    Perhaps so, perhaps not. It depends on what people come to expect. Making stuff illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. Indeed, the result may be decreased respect for the law, with broader consequences. How effective has the Drug War really been, except in inflating prices and producers' profits?

    That may be so. It may be necessary to better hide encrypted traffic, and use some sort of unattributable routing model (Tor on steroids, or whatever). Hey osifer, we're all just gaming with our friends, and trading legal pr0n -- nothing to see here ;)
     
  19. LockBox

    LockBox Registered Member

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    Just as an example, encryption is used everyday by just about everybody working in the healthcare industry that handles patient files. Nobody eyes this with suspicion. When I turn in expense reports and other documents to my company, they must be encrypted. I just don't believe, with the number of encrypted files transferred everyday, that anybody eyes them with suspicion.

    I also remember many people saying the same kinds of things that you wrote regarding the Clipper Chip for voice transmission and when the Clinton administration wanted mandated backdoors for encryption software. The outcry was loud and they had no choice but to back down. If that was true then, it will be 10X that today because of the widespread use of encryption by business and individuals. Those who were pessimistic back then (I remember them on the Compuserve Security Forums and Usenet) were saying just what you are now. They were wrong then and I think a real proposal for any such thing would prove the pessimists wrong again.
     
  20. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    But then you run into the issue of how does a regular joe know how to better hide encrypted traffic? How does he know how to even use encryption to begin with? It's these people that are in the most danger. How much better can we hide to begin with? You can only use so many tools before the technology just comes to a standstill and there is nothing better. Also, the harder you try to hide, the more red flags that get thrown up, and the more attention you get. I know quite a few will call that FUD, but I only invite them to look, truly look at what is going on around them, and how quickly we've reached the point where we even need to discuss such things.

    Speaking of these services such as VPNs and proxies, I for one no longer believe running their IP through a "whois" and reading their privacy policy deems them trustworthy. I don't know the people personally who run these companies, I don't know who their business partners really are, I'm not inside their office to see if there is a big server routing data to a 3 letter agency or someone else. Are we really naive enough to think a government won't set up a simple little service, type up an innocent looking policy, and maybe even plant reviews in search engines? Yes, that makes me sound paranoid, but it is easily and legally done. If fronts are set up by criminals on a daily basis, what on earth makes us think a government won't do it?

    It's no longer a situation of "I'm not doing anything illegal, they don't have an interest in me". That was the 90s and it was before a lot of other things happened. 2010 and beyond is an entirely different ballgame.
     
  21. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    You at home are not a health care business (I assume). They ARE going to wonder why some guy at his house is surfing the net via VPN and proxy servers from some other country. Government has backed down many, many times due to "uproars", but take a trip down memory lane and think about what was said back then would never happen, and has either already happened or is happening. It's not easy to force things on people, the government knows that. They trip up from time to time, but, if they "nudge" people into things slowly, people don't even realize what is going on until it's over with. What did not happen in the 90s has no bearing on what has happened, can happen, and will happen now. In the 90s, there wasn't world-wide daily terror alerts. A good scare changes everything.

    In the 90s, there were no "supercookies", there was no data storage forever (thanks, Google), there wasn't a lot of things. But, as you plainly see, all that changed. Never, ever, ever think something can't happen just because there may be an outcry. How many outcries were there over the AT&T/NSA issue? How many over the Patriot Act? Lots, right? They still happened and are still going on right this minute.
     
  22. LockBox

    LockBox Registered Member

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    I hear what you're saying, DW; good points all. I still think that encryption touches a lot more people in their day-to-day affairs than the broad PATRIOT Act and the AT&T "closet." On top of that, there's an overall feeling that their has been some over-reaching. However, you may be proved right. Speculation is all we can engage in. In the end, I truly believe the practical difficulties of barring some of these things would prove it unenforceable.
     
  23. hierophant

    hierophant Registered Member

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    Yes, we're going to have to stop doing that.

    It surely does.

    Right -- finances, shopping, pr0n, file sharing, etc.

    People will figure out how to be free. I'm sure of it. Consider the Soviet samizdat. They had carbon paper, and some mimeograph machines. We have the internet.
     
  24. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Honestly, Lockbox, you're likely correct when you say some forms of encryption will remain, as checking for things like Truecrypt'ed files on every computer would require a truly "1984"-type of scenario. Not that that is completely unrealistic, but let's stay with more pressing matters. What I see going away are the Xerobanks of the world, the TORs, encrypted emails, that sort of thing. We might be able to encrypt data once it is in our hands, but if they can intercept and snoop on it mid-transmission, it's game over anyway.

    Hierophant, you're also right in that people will try to find ways around it up until there just is no way around it. The unanswered question is at what price, and, how many average citizens are willing to pay it?
     
  25. hierophant

    hierophant Registered Member

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    No offence meant, and current conditions in some places approximate "worst-case" scenarios for those of us in less-repressive areas. Some of us might have first-hand experience to contribute. For example, can users in mainland China reach VPN entry nodes? Does VPN traffic lead to unwelcome visits?
     
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