The damage of fanboys advises

Discussion in 'other anti-malware software' started by Kees1958, Jan 31, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Kees1958

    Kees1958 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Posts:
    5,857
    This the second time in 2 weeks I heard that Sandboxie was bypassed (only responding to last post, see https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1395925&postcount=1)

    It is my guess that 99,999999999999999% of the times SBIE is bypassed, it is due to user error or misconfiguration.


    Sandboxie
    I hope that Sandboxie fans will take this into consideration when a new member enters Wilders and everyone advises him or her Sandboxie.

    I deliberately entered an 'critical' Sandboxie discussion which led to sharing of knowledge (https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=229492) not because I am against SBIE, but a security application is a tool used by somebody. So the user is part of the solution/security chain.

    Comodo Free
    The same applies to Comodo FireWall fans, it is my guess that 50% of the people advised are far better of with the free products of Online Armor or PC Tools FireWall. People pressing OKAY :oops: on Comodo's popups are not nesseceraly blessed with improved security.

    There is a nice German site about fake security (ScheinSicherheit or someting like that), I would ask the members of wilders (and specifically the fanboys) to take the level of knowledge required into consideration.

    SAS and MBAM Free
    SAS and MBAM have gotten a magical healing reputation. Luckily those applications can not be misconfigured (only one post I know of which caused an accident https://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=35 ).

    But it would help when people would also advise to create a restore point before removing found malware.

    ThreatFire
    As much as I like this application I can not understand why it is configured by default to NOT create a restore point before Quarantaine (while TF offers this option). The lack of listening to user request (Deny) is stated enough in Wilders, so once the sweet heart it is now critised on Wilders (with reason, so I agree). So everyone advising TF should also explain how you can activate this option in TF, otherwise you could well get somebody in deep trouble.

    Hope this post is food for thought

    Security starts with an image and data backup/recovery plan. This is commenly forgotten, The feeling of having an Iron cast/bullet proof security only reduces the need to have a backup/recovery plan. When I am told on as a newbie on an "expert" forum that I can get this incredible security (for free), buying an external harddisk and proper backup/recovery software is not a priority on my agenda.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2009
  2. Franklin

    Franklin Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Posts:
    2,517
    Location:
    West Aussie
    And good to see you're still right on to any possible negatives Kees.:D

    As for your deliberate "critical" thread on Sandboxie try and stay sober next time.;)
     
  3. Kees1958

    Kees1958 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Posts:
    5,857
    It is the fanboys, not the product

    o_O (lost in translation) o_O

    Yes indeed CHEERS :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2009
  4. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Posts:
    2,753
    I think the biggest damage, isn't made by fanboys, but from the lack of will of the users to read a help file or use common sense. Or use the "search" function for what matters. People that usually give advice in here, have done so dozens of times in the past. Re-writing an entire "user guide" each time, just because people are too bored to use search, becomes tiring. Even more, when products actually have a user guide!

    So, apart the fanboys , the enquiring users, should do some simple steps.

    1) Read the manual/ help file of the product they want to use.

    2) Don't use an application, in which they don't understand what they are doing. If you don't understand HIPS' pop ups, neither OA or PC Tools' pop ups will help you to effectively stop your "click OK" habbit or improve your security. Change product. This is called common sense. Only babies are excused , because you can give them a loaded gun and even if they don't know what it is, they will keep trying to do something with it, until they discover the trigger. Adults and adolescents should be smarter than that.

    3) If you need guaranteed and refund-proof help, instead of going to internet fora, pay a professional! In this way you can bitch about his advice. Or, in paid products, contact support.
     
  5. chris2busy

    chris2busy Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Posts:
    477
    Actually kees :D if a fanboy can alter your opinion/make you think about using something else,then you do not stand a chance vs rogues with their fancy bright colours that detect 9 gazillion samples more than your current arsenal :p
     
  6. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Posts:
    9,057
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Fanboys, who would ever have thought about the power they can exhibit.:cautious:
     
  7. Creer

    Creer Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Posts:
    1,345
    Yes, but maybe sometimes it is hard to distinguish "fanboys" from other "normal" users, of course problem don't exist when the fanboy has note about that in his sig :D
     
  8. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,040
    Boy I agree with this one. I get tired of answering questions, when a simple google would get the answer. Also the "can you tell me the difference between product x and y" Gees, you can figure it out by looking at the website. But folks get lazy, and don't want to work. Responding does get tiring.

    But I also agree with Kees about incomplete answers, which is why I will either not answer, or just tell the person asking to do a search.

    Pete
     
  9. Judge Dee

    Judge Dee Guest

    There's something about Kees1958's post I have to agree with (although I wouldn't use the term "fanboy".
    The majority of you folks here are very knowledgeable and interested in computer security. The majority of other people are not. They just want to turn on their computer and check their emails.
    I've put free AVs on several friend's infected computers recently, and every person found them "too complicated".
    I understand that's their problem. But I realize that I have to assume that the average person wanting help will just not want to bother to understand HIPS, sandboxes, etc., even if they are the best thing out there (which they probably are).
    I know that I don't have the patience or expertise like you folks to learn them, and it frustrates me.

    Regards,
     
  10. denniz

    denniz Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Posts:
    430
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I own a Sandboxie license myself, and I think that Sandboxie should be safe to use with default settings. I often read things here on Wilders about configuring Sandboxie, but hardly anyone actually explains in an easy way how to configure Sandboxie in a correct way. Also it seems strange to me that Sandboxie wouldn't be safe to use with it's default settings, especially since all the configuration options are far from user friendly. This is all the more reason the Sandboxie developer should preconfigure the settings so the program is safe to use right out of the box.

     
  11. fcukdat

    fcukdat Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Posts:
    569
    Location:
    England,UK
    Extremely good topic and long over due Kees1958:thumb:

    I think fanboyz would do well to read and understand the following famous security commentary.
    http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0005.html#1

    This may be dated commentary but the core principles highlighted are still very valid today.

    There are no silver bullets,there is nothing that is 100% foolproof and no matter how solid a tool or solution is capable of being then ultimetly its weakest link will be its PEBKAC's

    Security is a process,not a software that can be purchased:thumb:
     
  12. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Posts:
    9,057
    Location:
    North Carolina
    look, there is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. The problem arises when you offer advice or your thoughts, and you really dont know what you are talking about. Fanboy or not. And lord knows, I have been guilty of that more then once.

    So I may now rave about a product, but I sure as hell wont tell you it will solve your issues. Actually for me, and not to have someone else think it would be the same for them, I PM members and/or staff to ask my own questions in relationship to my use. Blue, Peter, Kees and quite a few others have answered me directly to my setup. I greatly appreciate it and it isnt plastered out here for others think it applies to them.

    It is a heck of a lot safer. Lol

    But I am a card carrying member of the Fanboy club, and that is ok for me.
     
  13. Kees1958

    Kees1958 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Posts:
    5,857
    I wrote this post after visiting my mother (she is 75). Who told her neighbour (who maintains her front garden as a good neigbour service) that I could help with a broken down computer.

    So I drove home and back (took me 45 minutes) and armed with hijack this, blacklight, combofix, A2 Malware, Sas, Mbam, Avast, Avira disk, runscanner. cc cleaner and Argente reg cleaner.

    I found a computer with Comodo Version 2 (?) and a NOD32 (dating from 2005), and Ewido free, whch barely came on its feet in safe mode.

    Okay it is stupid of them, but they are complete compute illeterates and a knowledgeable friend of a friend had told them that they had teh best AV, AS, FW in the world.

    They were really surprised they got infected and thought it was a hardware failure.

    In the Netherlands you have to officially get a moped lisence (motorbike of less than 50 cc) before you are allowed to take part in traffic, children of five and six get a bicycle lisences to increase awareness of the dangers of day to day traffic. May be Web surfing lisence is not a bad idea after all (for anyone buying a PC).


    Took two hours before all was actual and running again (on a free saturday that is not nice).

    Cheers
     
  14. MitchE323

    MitchE323 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Posts:
    156
    This is what that post states;
    This is "FanBoy" in reverse. Using any and all comments as vindication for a personal conviction. Show me where (any product) a post states "I did 1-2-3 and this is what happened" - let alone twice in two weeks. This is borderline FUD.

    Is the advise to a user supposed to be; "Well this product is great, but watch out for user error" ? It is post such as this that leaves those very users with no ability to make a decision, on anything. The example in this case is Sandboxie. Sandboxie right out of the box, with default settings provides a level of browsing protection beyond 99.99%.

    It is we that insist on a never ending quest of perfection in the hopes of hitting that 100% mark, that results in the endless tweaking of programs. To then state that the tweaking makes a program "too confusing" for a new user and therefore should not be reccomended enthusiastically, denys that user the protection offered by the default and easily understood settings of the program.
    Mitch
     
  15. Kees1958

    Kees1958 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Posts:
    5,857
    Let me guess, you are SBIE user?

    May be it is my limited English, but you are not interpreting the way I intended this post (I allocate the interpretation error to the sender = me and not the receiver = you).

    SBIE, Comodo, SAS, MBAM are the most advertised programs at Wilders. For Comodo and Sandboxie a minimum knowledge is required otherwise it leads to fake security. My point is please take into account that you need a basic knowledge to use some excellent programs in the right way. It takes two to tango as FCUKDAT told. Fuzfass and Pete also posted that users do not read manuals (cause of their low knowledge), is a far greater problem. Pete even has taken it a sort of rule of good behaviour to advise them to get more informed.

    Greetings (ending with cheers seems to get me drunk)
     
  16. MitchE323

    MitchE323 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Posts:
    156
    Case in point - a few posts above from Denniz. Look at the state of mind he is in after reading "things here on Wilders" - "Also it seems strange to me that Sandboxie wouldn't be safe to use with it's default settings".
     
  17. MitchE323

    MitchE323 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Posts:
    156
    That is the kind of dismissal you give to those that disagree with you? Yes, I use Sandboxie, and have used many products over the years. Are you seriously putting Comodo and Sandboxie on an equal par on the "Confusion Meter?"
     
  18. denniz

    denniz Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Posts:
    430
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    To clarify:

    I don't see the point of a developer making software like Sandboxie, advertising it the way he does and then not making it safe to use right out of the box. Sure in itself Sandboxie is a real easy program to use.... as long as you don't try to configure it. So developing Sandboxie and then making it available to users, but not providing default safe settings makes absolutely no sense to me.

    If malware manages to bypass/escape from Sandboxie (not counting keyloggers that are loaded in the sandbox) with default settings I even dare to say that the problem lays with the developer and not with the user using it.
     
  19. MitchE323

    MitchE323 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Posts:
    156
    Yes, I understand ... the only thing is that it hasn't happened. That is my point. Install Sandboxie - Don't change anything - Right click any shortcut and "Run Sandboxed" and right there and then you are at 99.99%. You want more custimization? Go through the settings - Auto Delete Contents - Open Favorites ...... one by one, tab by tab. That is not confusing.
     
  20. funkydude

    funkydude Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Posts:
    6,852
    It's OT but this was seriously bothering me. It's advice, not advises.

    “Advice” is the noun, “advise” the verb. When MitchE323 advises people, he gives them advice.
     
  21. Kees1958

    Kees1958 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Posts:
    5,857
    No as stated, looked at myself before pointing to others.



    just picked up emotion words in your reply and could help teasing, apologise for that is no dismissal, I tried to provide you with an asnwer to your post



    No, not the confusion meter, on the fanboy meter


    Greetings
     
  22. denniz

    denniz Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Posts:
    430
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    If I read the various things at Wilders here correctly then many advanced settings in Sandboxie are only available by editing the Sandboxie.ini file. Also I'm not saying configuring Sandboxie is "confusing". As long as one sticks with the visual menu-styled configuration options, then the config is doable, but it's not very user friendly. Many "techno-babble" is used, and really fine tuning Sandboxie to the max can be a daunting task. A task that's not really possible for people not experienced in computers.

    Also bare in mind that the things I mention about "daunting configuration options" and "not user-friendly to configure" doesn't necessarily apply to myself, I'm mostly talking in general about "normal" computer users, that only use it to msn, mail, and such and don't bother learning the finer things about hardware and software.

    What many people here at Wilders take for granted does not necessarily hold true for the general population.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2009
  23. MitchE323

    MitchE323 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Posts:
    156
    The posts you are reading here are old, outdated posts. That ini configuring was needed as the program was evolving. The same statements made here today, if made a year ago, would hold true. Todays Sandboxie requires absolutely no user ini editing - excepting in the case of solving a specific problem and usually stated by Tzuk, the developer. The most often exception to this would be an OpenFilePath - which is set through the GUI. OpenFilePaths to some programs (and Firefox is one) could possibly be considered lacking - I agree. But what is the developer to do, predetermine who wants OpenFilePaths in their sandboxes? But even with that exception, the context here in this thread refers to protection from malware.
     
  24. MitchE323

    MitchE323 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Posts:
    156
    That's fine and accepted. There is mention that users do not want to read help files and such. That has been since the beginning of time. What about users that do not read or understand forum threads? This is a "Sound-Bite" world we live in. Look at the very first sentence in this thread;
    It is not "Fan-Boy" to call you on that. You are provoking, in order to "prove" an agenda.
     
  25. Page42

    Page42 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Posts:
    5,828
    Location:
    Last Breath Farm
    There is yet another side of the damage fanboys can create. This helpful thread shines a bright light on the dangers of the biased advice that fanboys dish out, but think for a minute of another aspect... call it PEBDE (Problem Exists Between Developer's Ears). One or more members may post legitimate concerns and critical comments about a certain software. These points are often valid and in need of sincere accountability and response from the developer in question. But lo and behold, in swoop the fanboys with their boisterous and boastful cheerleading chatter, heaping mindless praise on top of senseless allegiance, effectively drowning out the voice of the complaining member and (here comes the bad part) filling the developer's head with delusions of grandeur about his magnificent product. I see it with my own eyes here on Wilders... a developer boasting about how many people use his software and how long he has been in business, all the while, the fanboys feed his oversized head with lofty opinions of himself.

    But the truths do eventually come into clear focus and the fanboys and their magaphones will at some time be silenced on a particular point... only to pop up in another place, shouting and declaring their undying love for someone and something else. :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.