TDS-4 questions part II

Discussion in 'Trojan Defence Suite' started by dallen, Nov 10, 2003.

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  1. dallen

    dallen Registered Member

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    Recently, in a thread titled "TDS-4 ?" I read a quote that said the following:

    "1 1/2 years later... after Wayne said TDS-4 was coming soon, there is still no TDS-4 yet.

    I am sure glad I ended up purchasing BOClean instead. They are at least upfront and honest on things. TDS are great at marketing and leading people on though, ill give em that."

    I read every posting in that thread including Wayne - DiamondCS's reply. I must say that I've defended DiamondCS before and I will do it again. I think that DiamondCS is upfront and I'd like to think that they don't lead anyone on, falsely. However, this has raised some questions.

    DiamondCS representatives suggest that people purchase TDS-3 with the understanding that when TDS-4 is released they will get a free upgrade. However now I'm reading about TDS-4 Pro, Guard, and Scanner. My question is will the registered owners of TDS-3 be upgraded to TDS-4 Pro that includes Guard and Scanner or are we going to have to purchases Guard and Scanner which DiamondCS considers to be "Seperate, New Products?" If the latter is true than I would say that the individual that posted the accusation may not be as far off as others and myself suggests.

    My other question is regarding a different thread where I read that WG4 would be the 1st release of the new family. After reading the "TDS-4 ?" thread it seems that this is not true. What is the plan?

    Speaking of plans, I think that DiamondCS is doing the right thing in taking their time to make reliable, powerful products rather than hurry to meet some predetermined deadline. Microsoft are you listeningo_O Anyway, I see no harm in keeping your loyal customers informed about the expected release dates of your new products. If your logic is that you don't want to let them down by having to delay it, I think that giving them a date then changing that date is better than keeping them in the dark. Furthermore, I would caution you on two things: taking your time releasing new software and focusing your attention on the competition that you know. When you're number 1 you have a tendency to focus on number 2. You may be knocked off by someone you wouldn't expect. With regard to taking your time I know that I said it's important to do it right, but there is a thing called first mover advantage and it's a powerful thing.

    I am eager to hear everyone's feedback to my comments and questions. Thanks.
     
  2. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    Hi there dallen,
    Thanks for your feedback.

    TDS3 has been available for quite a while now but it still has a primary detection list larger than that of any other anti-trojan program and it's still the only anti-trojan database that is released on a daily basis Mon-Fri - there's not a single trojan out there that TDS3 hasn't been able to handle, so although TDS4 will be great when it's available, it's not actually a necessity in that regard as TDS3 already fulfills all anti-trojan needs, but rest assured we're doing everything we can to make it available as soon as we can - that's in everyones best interests.

    However, the delayed release of TDS4 is due to one important factor: advanced research. If you take a few moments to look at our Port Explorer, OpenPorts, and Process Guard programs, you'll see that while other anti-trojan companies haven't really released any programs other than updates to their scanner, we've been doing leading-edge research in the fields of port-to-process mapping and process protection, two very important anti-trojan 'subfields', but we're the only anti-trojan team/company that are actually tackling these issues. Another area is emulation - TDS4 will be the first and only anti-trojan system with emulation capabilities (allowing it to safely unpack and scan inside compressed executables), but this isnt an area anyone else seems to be researching either.

    This is why other anti-trojan programs have been able to advance more quickly - they're not researching any other fields. TDS4 on the other hand will take a lot longer to develop than any other anti-trojan program because it's so much more advanced, but the end result will be worth it, I promise you that.

    This research is critical to TDS4 and arms TDS4 with anti-trojan capabilities that you probably wouldn't think are possible at this stage, but this type of research can't be done overnight - there is no documentation for what we do, it's all a matter of laborious testing and analysis - very tedious and slow work (something like searching for gold in a mine without any lights on), but the reward at the end makes it all worth it.

    We thank everyone for their patience and understanding, and look forward to being able to reward everyone with even more powerful and unique leading-edge software soon.
     
  3. dallen

    dallen Registered Member

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    I do appreciate the response, despite the form letter approach. However, I will specify my two questions more clearly so they might be addressed.

    1) My question is will the registered owners of TDS-3 be upgraded to TDS-4 Pro that includes Guard and Scanner or are we going to have to purchase Guard and Scanner which DiamondCS will consider to be "Seperate, New Products?"

    2) My other question is regarding a different thread where I read that WG4 would be the 1st release of the new family. After reading the "TDS-4 ?" thread it seems that this is not true. What is the plan? Will WG4 be released first, or not?

    Thanks again.
     
  4. Gavin - DiamondCS

    Gavin - DiamondCS Former DCS Moderator

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    Hi,

    TDS-3 Professional users will get a free upgrade to TDS-4 Professional, or can choose one of the other programs. Exact details are not set, nor are prices. Please bear with us and decide when you see the available programs :)

    Active Guard or Wormguard 4 ? They are having a race :D
     
  5. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    Registered TDS3 users be be able to upgrade 100% free to any one of the three TDS4 programs, and which one they choose is entirely up to them. Many people using TDS3 today were upgraded 100% free from TDS2 also, so they'll be entering their ~6th year of using an anti-trojan that they only bought once, all those years ago. :)

    In regards to the three types of TDS4 programs, people who like TDS3 just how it is will probably prefer TDS4 Professional. People who use resident/always-on anti-trojan scanners may prefer TDS4 Active Guard, whereas people who prefer on-demand anti-trojan scanners will prefer TDS4 Scanner. Regardless of which one you choose, it will provide complete anti-trojan protection (each can detect equally as many trojans), but in different implementations so that the user can choose exactly which program best suits their needs. And needless to say, if you own one of the TDS4 programs then the other two will become available at heavily discounted prices (including a bundle of all three).

    TDS4 Scanner, TDS4 Active Guard and Wormguard4 are both in similar, late stages of development (as they all share a lot of the new technology) so they'll all both be released at a similar time.

    Best regards,
    Wayne
     
  6. dallen

    dallen Registered Member

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    Thanks for the quick response. As always your time is appreciated.

    I am still unclear about the answer to my first question. We will get a free upgrade to TDS-4 OR one of the OTHER programs. I know that the amount of information regarding this matter is limited, but it seems by your answer that you are claiming that TDS-4, Guard, and Scanner are being considered "seperate, new products." Are you sure this isn't a deliberate division of what was implied would be included in the "Free Upgrade" that was promised to us in an effort to suck more money from the same customers that bought into the buy now and get a free upgrade campaign?

    Again, I know that you haven't "finalized the details" yet, but it's beginning to seem that the claim by NewB when he suggested in an earlier thread...:

    "I am sure glad I ended up purchasing BOClean instead. They are at least upfront and honest on things. TDS are great at marketing and leading people on though, ill give em that. "

    ...may have more validity that I gave it credit for. I have no choice but to wait and see. I know I won't be displeased with the power of your software. It's the power of your word that's in question.
     
  7. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    TDS-4 isn't one program, it's three very different ones, and you'll be able to upgrade to any one of them for free at your choice, and the two other TDS4 programs you can also purchase at heavily-discounted prices. Currently, if you use TDS3, youre using TDS3 Professional. TDS4 Professional is the main upgrade to the current TDS3 Professional, and if you'd like to upgrade to that from TDS3 for free, then you can. TDS4 Active Guard and TDS4 Scanner are extra, brand-new anti-trojan programs that dont even exist in public yet - there are no TDS Active Guard or TDS Scanner registered users, but if there were we'd offer them free upgrades also. However, rather than just offering TDS3 Professional owners a free upgrade to TDS4 Professional, we thought we'd give them the option of switching to Active Guard or Scanner instead, as they may prefer those scanners over TDS4 Professional. So, the choice is entirely theirs.
     
  8. dallen

    dallen Registered Member

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    I posted the above before I had a chance to read Wayne's responses. I don't mind paying you a little more for all your hard work. I think a lot of light was shined on what to expect by Wayne's responses. I'm still confused between Scanner and Pro. I understand that Guard will be an "always on" scanner. Similar to many anti-virus programs today. However is there a difference between Guard and Pro? I mean would there be a need for both? Thanks for your time.
     
  9. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    But you won't have to, that's the beauty of having three programs - the choice is entirely yours, and you can choose the exact setup that works best for you without having to pay for anything you don't need/want, and with a free upgrade to any one of the three TDS4 programs you'll have a total anti-trojan scanner for $0. It's entirely your choice if you also want to use another scanner as well, but even then you'd only be paying a heavily discounted price, not the full price (as you'd already be a TDS4 registered user).

    The three variations are...
    Professional - this is similar to the current TDS3, but obviously uses the new scan engines etc. It has a lot of fancy utilities, script capabilities etc - a power-users delight. Not recommended for novice or inexperienced users, but it's the type of program that is only as hard as you make it - basic functionality is very easy to use, usually just a few clicks, but people are often daunted by how much capability is on offer from the large menu system.
    Scanner - purely an on-demand scanner. Very powerful "under-the-hood", but we've tried to keep things as simple, easy-to-use, and intuitive as possible. Anyone with any level of skill should be capable of using it.
    Active Guard - purely a resident, always-on scanner. Again it's very powerful internally, but also has been kept simple and intuitive to keep it as easy-to-use as possible. Anyone with any level of skill should be capable of using it.

    Sound good? :)
     
  10. dallen

    dallen Registered Member

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    Sounds great. I'm sure I'll learn more about each as they are released and decide what best works for me. Keep up the good work and I can't wait.
     
  11. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    >Anyway, I see no harm in keeping your loyal customers informed about the expected release dates of your new products. If your logic is that you don't want to let them down by having to delay it, I think that giving them a date then changing that date is better than keeping them in the dark.<

    See what you've been quoting in your first message yourself. When a possible date is mentioned, they're called unreliable, if they mention a date and have to change it they're not trusted either and called all other kinds of nasty names.

    People forget all the new tools --of which several even completely for free!-- released along the line in the meantime partly using the new technologies is our impression reading Wayne's words carefully, so why so very impatient?

    Wayne told over a year ago there would be three separate products and he told us not long ago we can even choose one of the three for free and now even there will be a bundling and reduced price for current TDS-3 users! It could have been "you have TDS-3 Pro and you get TDS-4 Pro upgraded, if you better like the others that's your choice and you'll have to buy them" but this is not the offer, we have the free choice for what we like most on our system and our needs and wishes, not getting for free what we might not like/need/want.
    But i asure you i want them all so i won't make any problem, i'm just very happy looking forward to the coming new products on their own chosen time.

    Now i ask you how many companies are giving you software and upgrade after upgrade for free so many years and even completely new products released along the lines for free and even more shareware for a reduced price with the one you got for free already?
    Tell me, i don't know them.

    I would prefer to pay a yearly "membership" if this goes on, for the honor to be among the first each time to use new tools and all for free, the two support forums and the private licensed TDS operators only area, the scripts, the 24/7 support, the education, the security on my system, all the fun with that, urgent support where the cause was not with DCS software at all, the family of DCS products users all around the world ensuring support to the best of knowledge all time around the planet and the clock, in sickness and in health, etc etc etc
    My DCS family connection started 29 november 1999 so four years now.
    In TDS-2 i put the menu option on power user immediataly to learn it all while in fact i'm still a novice in many areas, but i find it really hard to clean out and secure people's systems without the DCS tools by now.
    Some people's kids born since that time now are on their first steps on DCS secured computers and won't know different, fortunately!
    We'll write them a few nice msagent scripts to say "Hi!" to them.
     
  12. cguest

    cguest Guest

    I have also three questions:

    1.
    Will the emulation (generic unpacker) be included in TDS-4 Pro, the pure on-demand scanner, or both of them. In other words, will TDS-4 Pro offer everything the pure on-demand scanner offers (except the simplified GUI)? Will the memory scanner of TDS-4 Pro be as powerful as the memory of Active Guard?

    2.
    Is there any official (!) policy regarding free signature updates? Most other companies provide free updates only for a predefined period of time (or at least reserve the right to do so).

    3.
    Is there any way to purchase TDS anonymously? Is it possible to transfer a TDS license (program + keyfile) from one person to another? (I believe that in Europe standard software is considered transferable.)

    TIA.
     
  13. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    Hi again cguest,
    Thanks for your interest in TDS4. I'll try to answer your questions but obviously there's a lot that I can't say at this stage as not everything is set in concrete ...

    Actually all three programs will have emulation, even the Active Guard. You may now be wondering "but why would a resident anti-trojan like Active Guard need to emulate anything, when the process would've already unpacked itself in memory?". Active Guard has execution protection so it can intercept the execution of a file before any code is actually executed, so if the file is packed it can then emulate the unpack code to the point where the main code section has been unpacked, at which point it can be scanned, and if a trojan is detected then the execution can be aborted, preventing any infection that would've otherwise occurred. This is much safer than actually allowing the file to execute and then scanning it while it's running, as that alone is all the trojan would need to start attacking the anti-trojan program (unless it's protected by our upcoming Process Guard program).

    Yes, but in TDS4 Pro it will be an on-demand capability only.

    We haven't published a policy regarding this but we'd be happy to do so, although we haven't actually had any questions about this before (but that's not to say there won't be in the future). We've always provided 100% free database updates, no strings attached, on a daily basis Mon-Fri, with no time restrictions, but due to the high costs of providing database updates (it's very, very time-consuming - finding, unpacking, analysing, finding good ways to detect them, etc), which is probably why TDS is still the only anti-trojan with daily database updates! We may be forced to change that with TDS4 - maybe something like free updates released once a week, with the option to pay a small fee which would allow you to obtain the daily database updates.

    If you'd like to get somebody to purchase for you on your behalf that's fine, just get them to send us an email immediately after their purchase to let us know "I just ordered under <this name>, but I'd like the keyfile to be made out to <this other name> please", and we'll send you the keyfile under the requested name instead of the name of the purchaser.

    Hope that helps,
    Wayne
     
  14. sakharg

    sakharg Registered Member

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    I guess my question somewhat emulates cguest's first one: is TDS4-Pro really an integration of ActiveGuard and Scanner, plus all the other powerful trojan detection tools similar to TDS-3 Pro?

    Is the Pro version capable of both on access scanning (Active Guard or execution protection as in TDS3) and on demand scanning (Scanner)? If so, are both these functions exactly the same as Active Guard and Scanner? I guess what you mean by the latter 2 being new products is that you've never isolated these functions before? And I would also suppose that this is a move catered to the "set it and forget it" crowd like those using BoClean?

    Whatever the case, just 2 things. I'm fed up with software and game developers releasing buggy products ahead of schedule, and promising stuff they never deliver on. So, DCS, take your time and release it only when it's ready. Those who deliver products on dates and development schedules are driven by corporate reasons, so those complaining about this and that delay can help yourselves to the vastly superior similar products available profusely elsewhere.....oh wait, there are none :rolleyes:

    ....Hey Wayne, you posted 2 minutes before I did (!), and I think you answered the technical question.....
     
  15. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    Thought it would be delta updates (daily? weekly?) and once a month(?) a full update?
     
  16. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    Jooske,
    Yes that's correct, but delta updates aren't really related to funding the updates :)
    Delta updates are smaller, 'cumulative' updates -- rather than downloading a full database every day which contains detection for every trojan, you just download that database once a month. Every other update is just a small update which just adds to the existing database -- it saves having to redownload the whole thing each day, so it saves both you the customer and us the vendor bandwidth and time :)

    But that still doesn't solve the issue of funding daily database updates ... :)

    Back in the early TDS2 days (mid-to-late 90s) there was maybe one trojan released every fortnight - it was easy to stay on top of them, so charging for database updates wasn't even something to consider. Today however as we approach 2004 we're seeing several trojans/variants released each and every day, so things have changed a lot - trojan collecting/analysing/detecting is now a fulltime job in itself, and there are literally thousands of trojan authors and programmers who make use of open-source trojans, so now unfortunately there's simply no way one man alone can do an adequate job with that, plus handle sales, email support, forum support, etc etc, and still somehow find time to research and develop, without making a lot of sacrifices -- there are only 24 hours in the day! So unfortunately it costs a lot of money to provide daily anti-trojan database updates in this day and age -- half a decade ago this wasn't the case, but I guess it's just another example of how fast trojans are evolving

    Again though, none of this is set in concrete and we're still throwing a lot of ideas around in the air :)
     
  17. Sisko

    Sisko Registered Member

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    Am I correct when saying that to have On Demand and On Access scan I need to buy (at a very discounted price) at least one product.

    So to have the same functionalities TDS-3 has (on demand and Execution protection) I will need to pay something?
     
  18. elsa

    elsa Guest

    new DCS products ? mhh some of them sounds interesting, e.g. the active guard and the new generation of TDS, but i have a question what kind of user interface will the new TDS will have, like the one of TDS-3 or a new one ? (maybe a nice screenschot would be nice, but i think it is like 3DRelams the next screenshots comming 2065 ;) and what about the signatures, i read a lot (mostly here ;) ) that TDS has (some) 'weak' signaures. Have the new TDS better signatures ?
     
  19. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    Sisko,
    We're still debating whether or not to remove execution protection from TDS4 Professional, but that's the only aspect that might be removed - everything else will simply be enhanced.

    "elsa",
    Thankyou for your interest in TDS4. The TDS4 Pro interface will be similar to the TDS3 Pro one, but TDS4 Active Guard and TDS4 Scanner will have very different interfaces, with a whole new refreshing look and feel about them - this is important as Scanner and Active Guard in particular are designed to be easy to use. Sorry, no screenshots at this stage.

    And no, TDS3 doesnt have weak signatures, the only person you read that from here was one of our competitors (so I'm sure you can guess why they're saying that). All of our signatures are hand-picked after comprehensive analysis, and we have many different classes of signatures also - TDS3 is able to detect trojans in more ways than any other anti-trojan program. This is in stark contrast to some of the other anti-trojan programs out there which use signatures taken from fixed locations in a file (no human analysis required - "dumb" signatures). They're the weak signatures you should be worried about, and no, we certainly don't use anything like that.

    Regards,
    Wayne
     
  20. helloworld

    helloworld Guest

    Wait so what you are saying is that if I were to purchase TDS-3 right now and in order to have the same functionality in TDS-4 as I would have in TDS-3 then I have purchase additional scanners? (on demand and real time?).
    Thus it boils down to this:
    If you purchase TDS-3 you get free upgrade to on demand scanner but for real time you have to pay? (well ok discounted but still you have to pay, thus it's not really a free upgrade from TDS-3 capabilities to TDS-4).

    And boy I really hope that you keep the daily or bi daily updates free since haveing weekly updates kind of discourages me from buying...it will be something along the lines of Norton's WED update (but at least you can download a manual update from Mon-Fri from their website).
     
  21. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    Norton asks a yearly payment too, don't they?

    I guess if exe protection is on one or in Pro and Active Guard both, we only need to install it once and i am happy with the idea of it running at first windows startup immediately! There's a kind of exec protection in WormGuard too if i remember well (?)
    Also i guess we'll use the same radius database one d/l for all three at a time.
    Looks like Gavin is going to need a colleague for some parts of the job! And somebody for updating the websites with all those new tools each time!
     
  22. phaedrus

    phaedrus Registered Member

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    I recently purchased TDS-3 because it has a good daily updated scanner AND a real time guard in the form of execution protection.
    I presumed the free upgrade to TDS-4 would be for an updated version of the same. :(

    Cheers,

    Trev.
     
  23. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    "helloworld",
    No, I didn't say that! I'll repeat what I just said :)
    We're still debating whether or not to remove execution protection from TDS4 Professional, but that's the only aspect that might be removed - everything else will simply be enhanced.

    In other words, if you liked TDS3 Professional, youll love TDS4 Professional! However we do know that some people do like the execution protection available from TDS3, so again - it's not set in concrete as to whether or not we'll remove it from TDS4 Pro, but that's the only thing that might be removed. We'd appreciate more user input on this :)

    Can I please ask are you currently a TDS3 registered user, and if so, do you use Execution Protection? We've found that only a minority seem to use it, with most TDS3 users just using TDS3 for on-demand scanning, which is the main reason for us considering removing Execution Protection from TDS4 Pro. But again, this isn't set in concrete yet!

    Im assuming that if youre using an anti-trojan program you're also using an anti-virus program? If so, your anti-virus program probably already requires you to subscribe for database updates. For example, if you use the Kaspersky anti-virus scanner then youve probably either got a Platinum, Gold, Silver or Bronze subscription ... :)

    Back in the mid-to-late 90s when remote access trojans first came of age (when the only anti-trojan programs available were our TDS2, BOClean, The Cleaner, and Lockdown), trojans were only being released maybe once every week or two. As such, it didn't cost much time to analyse and add detection for them. Now in 2003 where trojans are being released on a daily basis it's costing a lot of time and money to provide daily database updates (we're still the only anti-trojan company that has daily updates, and due to the rising number of trojans being released I can't see that changing). Other anti-trojan "companies" (with all due respect I have to use that term loosely as virtually all of them consist of just 1 person so I feel strange calling them "companies") may use this to attack us by saying "forget what they say, we'll keep offering free database updates", but they don't spend anywhere near as much time, money, or human resources as we do on database updates and trojan collection/analysis so it's not really a fair comparison.

    There are basically two types of programs in this regard ... most programs (probably 99% of software) can be developed, released, and then left "as is" - they don't need many (if any) updates. Typically, you'd pay for this kind of program up-front, and every now and then when a new update became available you'd be able to download it for free. On the other hand, there's a small group of software that requires daily maintenance, such as anti-virus and anti-trojan programs. Your one-off up-front fee will probably cover database updates for the first year, maybe two years, but that's about it - after that period it will actually cost the vendor to provide you with database updates, and that may send the vendor bankrupt. This is the main reason why virtually all anti-virus software today requires some form of subscription so that you can download database updates.

    Most software doesn't require daily maintenance, but I hope you can understand why anti-virus/anti-trojan scanners (and a few other similar types of programs) require daily updates by their developers.

    Thanks for your feedback,
    Wayne
     
  24. helloworld

    helloworld Guest

    I understand your concern and I know that it takes time and money to peform daily updates. Thus daily is not necessary as long as you update it at least once every 3 days (bi daily would be better).
    No I have not used Exec Protection since I am not yet an TDS-3 owner, I am looking into purchaseing it but I am awaiting TDS-4 and it's final options. But I did gave the TDS-3 a trail run (w/o exec protection). I must say it is a very good program but I would like exec protection to be present. Also does exec protection uses up resources? or is it only as the name states Exec Protection (Thus uses up resources when an given monitored extension executes?).
    Currently for my real time scanner I am using BoClean and I must say as simple as that program is, it does it's job (it cought few trojans that Nod32 Kav or Nrtn let through (on demand scanned w/ Kav and Nrtn while Nod was real time)). And I like their updates, sometimes they are daily and sometimes once every three days and now with the .11 version I don't have to manually update it.
    The missing part of BoClean is the on demand scanner since I would like to scan a file before I execute it (just in case). That's why I am looking over to TDS-3. Of course I will continue to use Boclean as my real time scanner. THus Exec protection is not a be all funciton, but it's extremelly welcomed in my purcheaseing decision (I would rather have a layered protection then none).
     
  25. dallen

    dallen Registered Member

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    Wow. I just found my 1st trojan with TDS. I want to know what I should do. TrojanDownloader.Win32.CPR is the name. It's ironic that as I start to knock DiamondCS I need their help.
     
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