Some they giveth some they taketh away

Discussion in 'all things UNIX' started by Mrkvonic, Feb 5, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    Hi guys,

    Let's talk Ubuntu: an article debating the pros and cons of the latest Ubuntu release, 9.10 Karmic Koala, including performance, stability, audio & video, graphics, and boot times, following three months of use and testing. Might be interesting to some of you.

    http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/ubuntu-give-take.html


    Cheers,
    Mrk
     
  2. tlu

    tlu Guest

    I agree with you - that's why I finally moved to openSUSE. One additional observation, though: I had the pulseaudio problems also on Kubuntu.
     
  3. chronomatic

    chronomatic Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Posts:
    1,343
    You can solve all your PulseAudio problems by switching to OSSv4. That's what I did and haven't had a single problem since.
     
  4. taytong888

    taytong888 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Posts:
    138
    Hi Mrk,

    I like your review of Ubuntu. How do I get the stunningly beautiful pics in your article to refresh my aging P3 laptop running Karmic Ubuntu? Could you give me some links?

    Thanks a lot for your help.

    PS: By the way, the support from Ubuntu Forums is extensive and is way better than those of most other distros, openSUSE included.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  5. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    I just googled something like blue wallpaper, sunset wallpaper etc ...
    Mrk
     
  6. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Posts:
    2,331
    Location:
    West Yorkshire, UK
    Interesting you mentioned about various things breaking for some people.
    When reporting bugs on Launchpad or asking for help on Ubuntu forums, it actually makes support very difficult, because you get a mixture of people who can't reproduce the problems, people who suffer from similar but different issues and people who are suffering additional problems that may or may not be related. Mix in a range of people's experience with Linux and you can end up with things that simply take longer than they should to get fixed.

    Grub 2 - Though its labeled a beta, how stable/unstable is it actually in the real world ?
    I do agree that need to be on the cautious side, but if its genuinely very stable I don't mind.
     
  7. Trespasser

    Trespasser Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Posts:
    1,194
    Location:
    Virginia - Appalachian Mtns
    I always take anything Mrk has to say about Ubuntu with a grain of salt. His obvious dislike of Ubuntu and love of Suse does have a tendency to show through once in a while ever so slightly. Some people just don't like the guy who's on top. To each his own, I guess.

    I've installed Karmic on and old HP desktop (with a 933 Mhz processor...256 MBs ram), an Emachine (1.2 Ghz processor...512 MBs ram), 2 self made P4 desktops with plenty of ram, and 2 laptops with not a single problem (except for the Broadcom wireless..and the driver was on the CD). All had various types of hardware. I can't say the same for other distros I've tried (too numerous to mention). Yesterday I installed Sabayon 5.1 rc1 and the wireless didn't/wouldn't work and every time I tried to change the resolution the screen would blackout for a few seconds then reappear with no mouse cursor visible. I had a heck of a time just trying to reboot. After a reboot the cursor was still missing. Another reinstall...fixed the wireless problem...stayed clear of changing the resolution...but decided after a while why continue. CloneZilla dragged out and it's back to Ubuntu. BTW, I'm loving Gnome Shell.

    Ubuntu is a well documented distro. A lot of its "flaws" are well known and publicized. IMO, the same can't be said of other distros (except maybe for Fedora). Every distro is going to have its "weak" areas (you're going to have trouble), but I find, at least with Ubuntu, I have less trouble. The last time I had what I'd term a problem with Ubuntu was back in Hardy (I think) when they first introduced pulse-audio. God, I hated pulse-audio and for a time I changed distros (Blag, I think it was), but Ubuntu straightened it out by the following release and I was back in the fold once again. And a lot of the problems beginners would have fixing under Ubuntu from an "out of the box" experience? Well, the same can be said of any distro.

    I think Ubuntu is number one for good reason. But, again, I'm biased, just like Mrk. :).

    Later...
     
  8. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    I'm running a total of 6 Ubuntu releases on my desktops and laptops, more than SUSE, actually. But I expect stability from releases and when audio works in Jaunty and then does not in Karmic, that's a big problem.

    I'm not biased. I'm the least biased person in the world. You can gauge all kinds of fields as me for reference.

    Mrk
     
  9. Trespasser

    Trespasser Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Posts:
    1,194
    Location:
    Virginia - Appalachian Mtns
    Regressions are something that my systems that I run Karmic on have not suffered from. Everything works just fine. Take Sabayon for instance, in 5.0 wireless worked yet in 5.1 I had trouble with it. Other distros, I'm sure, suffer from the same situation.

    And if I offended you in any way with my "biased" statement then I apologize. Sorry, Mrk. I did not mean to offend. Didn't you notice the smiley face? :).

    Later...
     
  10. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    I was not offended. Have you not noticed the geeky smug rhetort with the field gauge and whatnot :)
    Mrk
     
  11. Trespasser

    Trespasser Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Posts:
    1,194
    Location:
    Virginia - Appalachian Mtns
    :cautious: . Hum, I must have missed that one. But, moving along......and

    Later...
     
  12. ard14n_y

    ard14n_y Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Posts:
    25
    Hi Mrk

    I like your site.
    If you expect stability, why not give Debian a try.
    I think it is very stable. Upgrade process is smooth. But package is a litle old.

    Waiting your review about Debian.

    Sorry for my english.
     
  13. linuxforall

    linuxforall Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Posts:
    2,136
    I am really sorry to say Mrk but you are among the most biased of any reviewers I have yet to come across. Day in and out you bash a distro which is singlehandely responsible to put Linux desktop on the OS map. The fact is that Ubuntu is the darling of the Linux desktop world but the reason Linux will never succeed as MS is due to attitudes like this prevailing commonly in Linux world. They live to pull each other down. Not only does FOSS Nazis attack Ubuntu for its glaring success, third rate mediocre distros like SuSE users do as well. Incidentally they never bother with the others like Fedora which is also ahead of SuSE and others. Face the fact, SuSE will never ever reach the numbers Ubuntu has. Not with their shoddy YAST, their faulty dependencies setup. You need 700mb to install VLC, c'mon.

    In today's distro world count, Ubuntu rules by a huge margin over rest and they are followed by Fedora and MINT, the later being a Ubuntu derivative. Do you know the reason why. I deploy Linux desktop as well as servers to SOHO and private users. I do that with confidence knowing well that Ubuntu today is the Windows of Linux world even though this statement would make FOSS Nazis cringe. What is the purpose in the end for Linux? Its to spread Linux in desktop and make those who can't afford MS OS or are not happy with its functioning vis a vis virus or regustry corruption etc. to run a free, reliable alternative OS and guess what, Ubuntu is here to stay and has filled the void, so has MINT. As far as I am concerned a poorly finished joke of a distro like SuSE can go into oblivion. Instead I suggest those with desire for cutting edge and KDE to try out the other German gem sidux. Even Mandriva implements KDE fine and runs way better than SuSE.

    I was an ex SuSE user and ran it in dual boot till Ubuntu made me all LINUX. I am not the only one it has. ;)
     
  14. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    The purpose of Linux is not what you wrote. The purpose is: software.
    It should do what it's meant to do - crunch numbers.
    Mrk
     
  15. linuxforall

    linuxforall Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Posts:
    2,136
    The purpose of any OS is to facilitate people to crunch numbers, Ubuntu does that far better than other desktop offerings, its way more rounded and they bring in cutting edge every six months allowing further advancement on desktop linux. When it comes to crunching numbers, it does a swell job as well.

    Now purpose of journalism is to be fair and non partisan. Of course in this day and age of Internet, anyone can go out and write a blog, one doesn't need a license or any background for it. Now are we too assume that those who are using Ubuntu in significantly larger numbers than other distros are all fools and going through all the troubles and issues as you purport in your write ups, thats one preposterous assumption. Said and done, every review of yours, your bias clearly shows and shows bad. You don't even give a fair chance to Ubuntu, the mere reference throws you into a hate Ubuntu frenzy. When you reviewed Xubuntu, you lamented on the fact that you couldn't connect to Windows PC, you weren't even aware that the protocol used in XFCE is different than that of Gnome or KDE, why put the blame on Xubuntu when its evident thats its your relative lack of knowledge on distros apart from your favorite NOVELL/SuSE. You don't have an idea on other desktop environments work.

    Lastly, since you are claiming to be a linux reviewer, get yourself some decent hardware and then do full install. I have deployed Ubuntu in far larger numbers and am yet to face all those issues you always invariably claim in your so called reviews, however every time I have tested SuSe, I, my other Linux using friends have been left with a bad taste in our mouth.

    As for number crunching with Ubuntu, the fact that it comes with the largest collection of education and other software makes it very easy to do any kind of task, number crunching included and currenty, out of 40 odd PCs in our math department at the univ, around 25 of them run Ubuntu crunching numbers day in, day out and nicely as well.

    Also I keep hearing people complaining about regressions in Ubuntu, well please don't blame Ubuntu, PULSE audio problems are inherent in all distros using it and one always has the option to remove Pulse and use ALSA or OSS. Fedora develops Pulse, not Ubuntu so blame them if you are having issues. Having said that, Pulse has improved significantly with each and every new release of Ubuntu. Regressions are also part of the Kernel being used so blame them as well. Don't try and stop progress of desktop Linux by telling Ubuntu to chain down its development process. I don't see anyone attacking Fedora which takes cutting edge to the extreme sometimes making it unusable. Try install nvidia driver on Fedora and then try the same on Ubuntu. Ubuntu allows me to compile mplayer, x265 codecs and ffmpeg to latest version if I am not happy with whats in repo, the PPA system allows me to stay ahead of all with latest cutting edge stuff if I need so.

    Also if you don't want the latest, greatest Ubuntu, there is nothing to despair, you lave LTS Ubuntu which keeps it stable and is among the best supported LTS out there. In terms of committment to security patches, time and again team Ubuntu has been the first to release so. In lieu of all that, tell me whats wrong with Ubuntu?
     
  16. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    Since you turned this personal, let me personalize:

    Xubuntu - I don't care what protocol is used, the fact there is no network connect option in GUI -- FAIL. One big juicy fail. I know how desktop environment works far better than you think. It does not work by hiding Samba from users, for instance. Or by getting stuck when you try to configure proxy. Or having to go to runlevel 3 to compile your flash driver. Or anything alike.

    As to "knowing" desktop - it's not interesting. I care about the kernel and internals. Desktop is merely an interpreter. And it should work properly. Except Gnome and KDE, other desktops are pretty much 1994 and not good for 99.99999% of users. Most of what you would refer to as "advanced" desktop use is a waste of time and a bad QA joke.

    Ubuntu - cutting edge, fine as long as it does not interfere with my work. The same goes for any distro that changes things 3 times in 12 months, with unpredictable results. I do serious work on my computers and I can't afford monkey business. I want it to work now and in 14 years.

    I have 20-25 articles (at least) dedicated to Ubuntu, 1,000 posts at Ubuntu forums trying to help people ... that does not mean I should be blind to OS issues that increasingly crop with Ubuntu releases. Ask yourself why is then LTS switching from Unstable to Testing branch?

    As to my hardware: I have enough machines to claim a statistical significant pool of relevance. Four laptops, two desktops, one ESXi, a few machines I loan now and then, more than any other reviewer ever puts in their articles online. I have not seen anyone test more than one, two machines at most.

    Oh, I'll buy more when I feel like it, thank you.

    As to my so-called reviewers: Don't like it, don't read. Write a counter-argument. Put up your own website and express your opinions. No one forces you to read my stuff.

    As to Fedora, read all my reviews and decide what I think about. For example, in my Scientific Linux review, I asked: Who needs Fedora? but this must have escaped you, since you're too busy getting angry.

    Finally numbers: You're talking about tens of machines, I work with tens of thousands. Try guessing which OSes are used. There's a reason why RH takes 75% market, SUSE 20% and the rest ... all the rest. There's a reason why supercomputers and huge farms run RH or SUSE. Not that Ubuntu server is bad. But it has nothing in common with the desktop or the desktop environment of any which kind.

    PulseAudio - I don't care who developed it, what I care is who packages it into XYZ distro.

    And responsibility wise, Ubuntu runs BETA bootloader, how about that? Sounds like a wise move? You have no compliance with runlevels, no /etc/inittab, no xinetd, Upstart stuff, BETA bootloader, ALPHA quality audio, kernel crashes that did not exist in the past, and you call all this nice and dandy, right?

    Oh I still run quite a few instance of Ubuntu at home, more than SUSE actually, but what you're confusing is software with emotions. OS is a tool meant to serve you. It's not your darling. If you don't like it, chuck it.

    OS is meant to be an appliance, just like your TV, a consumer product. That's what most people want, need and understand. They don't care about the little internals. And they are right. I agree. At work, I'll hack the kernel to death, at home, I want the stuff to work now, now, without any issues. So all the little tweaks are just an excuse to why things don't work.

    RTFM - a failure in design.

    Mrk
     
  17. Judge Dee

    Judge Dee Guest

    I don't know what intentions Mrk has when he reviews distros, etc. But I know that when I see his reviews, I feel like he's speaking for the average Joe who wants to use his computer to get things done.
    His complaints and praises seem to coincide with what I, a very average Joe, would look for.
    Based on his reviews, I chose Ubuntu. Based on his posts, I chose Clonezilla for imaging. I'm happy with both.
    I just don't see any huge bias.

    Regards,
    JD
     
  18. linuxforall

    linuxforall Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Posts:
    2,136
    I don't know why you bother with Linux when your sole purpose is to make it a single distro affair namely your pet SuSE.

    Did you even bother to look? its clearly apparent you are not familiar with XFCE. In Xubuntu its applications?systems>Remote Filesystems. Do you even bother to look, I seriously doubt it as your mind is all gaga over SuSE. Its called Gigolo, next time you are in Xubuntu, suggest you take a look around before making your typical biased reports as usual.

    Gnome, KDE? How about XFCE, Enlightenment, LXDE. All those are useless I suppose, are you seriously into Linux or just seeking accolades and attention?

    Cutting edge Ubuntu doesn't interfere with my work and those on the list of distro watch where for years it has been dominating the ranks, not only that, it dominates on other facets of desktop linux as well, am I to assume all those are in delusion and just because you can't make it work on your side, you call that interference. Well FYI, it works fine on majority of the desktops installed, therefore its Ubuntu that puts desktop linux on the map, not others, specially not your favorite SuSE.

    You have all articles which do nothing but spread FUD against Ubuntu, time and again you do nothing but rant against it and do a devotional adulation for SuSE. Never, ever have you constructively analyzed Ubuntu or for that matter other distros but when it comes to the joke of a distro called SuSE, its been manna from the heavens for you.

    You have antiquated laptops and when any distro doesn't work on those, you condemn them. Most of the time its your favorite T61, get better hardware like other respectable sites before getting a proper perspective on a OS and judging it. Seriously they should now implement some credibility for so called reviewers on the net, any Tom, Dick and Harry can write reviews on net using their ancient, dysfunctional hardware sitting in their mom's garage.

    Upgrade your hardware now or take a hiatus till you feel you have the correct stuff to write about.

    I don't believe in putting websites to spread my fanboy rantings based on my subjective opinion. The forum is there for countering any kind of FUD, since no one else did, I decided its high time someone shows your true agenda.

    Who needs Fedora, the Linux world does, FYI, Pulse audio, network manager all are developed by Fedora but since your head is so much into SuSE pile, you are probably too busy to notice. Fedora brings cutting edge, not dysfunctional green distros which need 700mb download for VLC and have totally screwed up dependency issues.

    Please don't do that condescending Ubuntu lip service, you just don't like the distro which is at least making an effort to get Linux widely accepted. Your assessment is totally subjective and time and again you keep repeating your Ubuntu hatred. Have you counted the number of anti Ubuntu posts you have made here alone at Wilders, forget your own site where you litereally stomp it to the ground. When no one notices you there, you come over here and try get your attention back to your Ubuntu bashing.

    And of all the desktop linux, its Ubuntu that has bought in many Windows users who would otherwise cringe from Linux. Had it not been for Ubuntu, many wouldn't even bother with the word LINUX. As for being a consumer product that simply works out of box, its Ubuntu that fits the bill closest as compared to other distros. If you are talking about tweaking, even Windows needs tweaking when you install it first time and so does desktop Linux, even more so. Show me one distro that doesn't and you are a big fat lair.

    RTFM......LOLOLOL, if anyone should RTFM its you, you didn't even know how to connect to LAN on Xubuntu and you are telling others to RTFM. If there is a failure in design, SuSE wrote the book on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2010
  19. Ocky

    Ocky Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Posts:
    2,677
    Location:
    George, S.Africa
    Not fair, Mrk had some rather good things to say about Ubuntu - from his website:-
    He is only concerned about the direction the developers are taking and the pace of introducing 'beta' cutting edge stuff which may cause a normal joe home user like me to battle and wonder.
     
  20. iSole

    iSole Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2008
    Posts:
    40
    Five articles about SUSE in two years hardly constitutes a love affair.

    As an 'average joe', I care what works on my machine, not personal attacks or arguments about who vs what.

    FYI-don't use SUSE or Ubuntu(s), neither work on my 'old' machine.

    There are enough distros out there to keep anyone happy,
    there's no reason to keep to just one, IMO, or what's the point?

    A person might as well use Windex then.
     
  21. linuxforall

    linuxforall Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Posts:
    2,136

    No one is telling anyone to use latest or beta, thats why LTS, Stable are here, use latest, beta and you have to be prepared for some unexpected stuff and having said that, Ubuntu has always done a swell job.

    As for praising Ubuntu, since the release of 9.10, he has been singlehandedly focused on anti Ubuntu posts, not a day goes by and one doesn't see some or the other post against Ubuntu. Hasn't he declared SuSE to be the best distro?

    http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/opensuse-11sp2.html

    Remember that Swiss Omega James Bond's choice commercial? Well, that's the title for today's review. Does that mean openSUSE 11.2 is all uppity and posh and only meant for nobs or that it is tough and slick and charming? Well, read on and discover for yourself.

    SUSE was my first distro and as such has a special place in my heart. I've used every single release of SUSE/openSUSE since 9.2 and liked them all quite a lot. There had been issues and problems, but overall, the distribution behaved and delivered a solid, mature and responsible experience that befits a large, international company like Novell.

    The best way to describe openSUSE 11.2 is by a James Bond analogy. If James Bond were to use openSUSE, he would probably choose openSUSE 11.2, except that last guy, Daniel wossname, who's not really a James Bond and uses a Mac anyway.


    If this is not worship, dunno what is. Even when he choses to compare to another KDE distro, instead of myriads, he specifically picks Kubuntu, unless you are blind, even a child would see where his agenda lies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2010
  22. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    linuxforall:

    1. Change your attitude. Be nice.

    2. T61 is not old. It works great and runs whatever it needs to run. And if it can run Windows XP, then it should run anything I throw at it. Better hardware, respectable sites? Subjective. I'll repeat again, I have 7 machines in total, covering a range of hardware specs, a very "respectable" statistical pool for all practical purposes. Find me anyone save maybe phoronix.com, who test on more than their 10.5" netbook or something alike and we'll talk again.

    3. Xubuntu again, I really don't care what the application is called. I could not care less. Nor Adam or Sarah or anyone sane could. They don't know what Samba is and no parent would let their children use a program called Gigolo. The fact it, it fails where it should not, end of story.

    4. As to all that other personal stuff about mom's garage and such, relax. I'm not your high-school buddy. Be nice and behave. I'll repeat once again, nicely, democracy and freedom of speech let everyone, including you, spew their nonsense unchecked, so maybe you should do a little homework before you come against others. If anyone has a fetish with SUSE, it's you.

    5. When you decide to talk like a normal person again, we will talk.

    6. Oh by the way - assessments and such ARE, by definition subjective. Humans are subjective. There's no such thing as objectivity, one can only try to be as fair and balanced as one can perceive, based on their experience, mood, knowledge, and whatnot, and if that does not satisfy someone, well, tough cookie.

    BOTTOM LINE:
    No parent would let their kids use a program called Gigolo. FAIL.
    Normal people who do not treat computers as friends cannot connect to Samba in Xubuntu. FAIL.

    Mrk
     
  23. linuxforall

    linuxforall Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Posts:
    2,136
    You be less biased and more objective Mrk, you need to be truthful here and come out with your true purpose.

    Well in this case, it can't run the most popular distro out there so I guess something is going wrong somewhere.

    Yep, just as we don't care about your green James Bond distro called SuSE. Just because you didn't RTFM, you lied and claimed it had no network, now you turn against the naming conventions of the program, Gigolo is not Ubuntu or Xubuntu program, its a third party program used by Xubuntu, as with other Linux distros, they use programs developed by other linux develpers so lots of zany names are present, thats not Xubuntu's fault and now don't try and divert the real point here. You let the parents decide whether they want their kids using something like SuSE which sounds like porn photographer Suze Randall or Gigolo, don't make the judgement for them.

    Well seems like I hit a nerve about mom's garage didn't I? Don't worry, your type would never be my buddy at high school, we all know where you hung out there. As for spewing nonsense, now that your agenda is out in the clear, you resort to diversory tactics, it ain't gonna work.

    I don't need to talk to you, my purpose was to expose and question your tactics against a particular OS just because of your subjective views and I have done that well. When you become a non-biased objective reviewer, maybe then you should start writing some objective reviews and not about James Bond, concentrate on the OS and its functionality.

    Assesments are never subjective, You are, period.

    So thats all you got now, name calling, attacking and condeming a distro because you don't like the name they used for their LAN explorer? Egotistical people who are beady eyes with their James Bond OS don't RTFM and selectively and subjectively ignore basic conventions FAIL so in this case MRK FAILS..........dedoimedo big FAIL.
     
  24. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Posts:
    8,697
    I'm going to cry for a moment or two and then promptly ignore you forever.
    Mrk
     
  25. linuxforall

    linuxforall Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Posts:
    2,136
    I wish you would rather not take it personally and instead work on your future reviews, you do show lots of promise, just need to be non biased and more objective in the future. Less James Bond, more LINUX FOR ALL. ;)

    Really sorry if I made you cry.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.