So why use an antivirus at all?

Discussion in 'other security issues & news' started by jdenton, May 6, 2008.

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  1. jdenton

    jdenton Registered Member

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    Mrkvonic,

    I can understand that you don't want to be protected, but claiming that antivirus companies who offer protection are "denying user responsibility" simply takes the cake.
     
  2. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Hi,

    jdenton, think about it.

    You have this magical bot doing things for you. If it says it's green, you're ok. If it's says it's red, you're not. That's about it.

    This is what happened in 1987 when a US AEGIS cruiser took down the Iranian airliner with the Standard missile. You had the magical technology make its call and the users simply pressed the button.

    When you let some machine decide for you, you give away your own responsibility. Thus, you never really learn what the "baddies" are and what they do or how they do it. You like in darkness and your only input is the artificial signal from a web utility.

    And please tell me how exactly does a web scanner protect you?

    Let's say you are using the Opera browser.
    You hit a web page serving "baddies."

    And ... ?

    What happens? Nothing. Simply because a well-build browser is sandboxed, it cannot and will not trigger drive-by downloads, nor interact with system files. Thus, you are fully protected without any outside interaction. The same applies for Firefox, K-Meleon etc.

    Of course, you can always download the file and execute it, but you can also spill water on your keyboard if you feel like it.

    Regarding the passive protection, the user can be fully protected from unintentional external harm simply by choosing the right web browser.

    Instead, the mentality of the web scanners is:

    Use an inferior browser (IE) where these executions work.
    Rather than solve the browser problem, simply patch the problem.
    Ignore the inherent insecurity of an inferior product and use an improvised solution.

    Analogy:

    You have two roads, one in a bad shape, one a smooth highway.

    Using Firefox, Opera etc is going down the smooth one.
    Using a web scanner would be buying a 4x4 just to be able to drive down the bad road, when you can simply avoid the extra cost, effort, overhead etc by going the "right" way.

    The right here indicates mentality, strategy, choice.

    Now, regarding dangerous web pages. Use any non-IE browser. Case closed. You can visit any which page you wish and you won't see anything, find anything or feel anything. The web will be boring.

    And if you disable scripting, then it will be even faster and more boring.

    The very thought of processing the millions lines of html code, scripts, links etc makes the whole idea of web experience so wrong.

    Especially when the idea of the web utilities is not to protect you from the web BUT protect you from an inferior browser.

    Finally, jdenton, the statement: "I understand you don't want to be protected."

    No, you don't understand. I am protected. I simply choose to do it the right way. Efficiently.

    Mrk
     
  3. jdenton

    jdenton Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    So why use an antivirus at all?

    It looks like your problem isn't with AVG, but with ALL antivirus products in general. So you don't like how the technology works. Maybe AVG and other vendors should just take your advice, close shop, and move to creating third-party browsers instead.

    You say that users can download the file themselves and execute it, but that's not the browser's fault anymore. How convenient. Do you expect everyone to reverse-engineer a file and determine if it contains dangerous code before they run it? It sounds to me, like your argument is saying that we do need antivirus software after all. But no, that'd be bad, because the user wouldn't be taking responsibility for him/herself.

    Nitpicking and frivolous complaints FTW. :thumbd:
     
  4. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Hello,

    First, your text:
    You say that users can download the file themselves and execute it, but that's not the browser's fault anymore. How convenient. Do you expect everyone to reverse-engineer a file and determine if it contains dangerous code before they run it?

    Answer 1: No, it's not browser fault. It can never be. It's always the user's fault.

    Answer 2: I expect the user to be confident that what they do is good for them. And if not, bear the consequences of their choice. Like in real life. Do you have an "advisor" checking your actions in real life? What is it supposed to be different on the web? Only because it's so easy to click?

    Answer 2b: You don't need any special skills to analyze payload. However, if you only have ever blindly relied on bots (AVs etc) to tell you what's good or bad, then you have a problem. It's called reality check.

    Now, did you read my second post at all?

    Why use AV?

    - Help the industry improve itself by reporting findings - mainly FP.
    - Help other people inadvertently carrying, spreading or contracting viruses. This may sound like an alien concept to you, but security is more than "what happens on my desktop."

    I don't have any problems with AV industry. But I do used to use one AV for the purposes above stated and it was AVG, because it suited my rigorous requirements - speed, impact, usability etc.

    BTW, you are confusing things - reporting web links has nothing to do with the purpose of AV.

    AVs are supposed to examine files. Files can be delivered any which way, including non-web media like floppies or CDs.

    So, not using web scanner utilities does NOT impair the AV functions in any way. On the contrary, using these utilities is something AVs are never meant to do.

    Furthermore, as long the infected file is not in physical contact with the machine, that is - not present on the machine or any of the local peripherals, this file has nothing to do with AVs.

    Lastly, going by your logic, if every web page took 54 seconds to load, it would still be ok - because someone decided to do it. And complaining is not allowed, because "they" know what's best for us. Right?

    Mrk
     
  5. jdenton

    jdenton Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Exactly. Here we have a solution that is flawless, yet doesn't do much good at all in practise because it's flawless in a way that doesn't necessarily guarantee security. Now if you or anyone else are obsessed with these "flawless" solutions, they're perfectly welcome to use them. I prefer to take a more practical view to things, i.e. I don't particularly mind if a solution is imperfect, as long as it's useful in real-world conditions that I'm likely to run into.

    Now you're not making any sense at all. You seem to live in a personal utopia where everything is supposed to go exactly as according to your ideals, and according to your ideals we need to abolish the mainstream form of computer security because everyone needs to be knowledgeable and responsible for themselves. What's next? Abolishing the police force and hospitals in real life as well? I'd suggest a reality check.

    So what are those special skills, exactly? I'm an average computer user. As in, I have a life, and other things to do other than fret over how to expertly identify viruses with clinical precision. If anyone needs a reality check, it's you beyond a shadow of doubt. I'm also not going to debate your silly little ideals with you anymore, because they no longer have any connection with reality, let alone AVG (which is the topic of this thread).

    Then don't run the memory-resident components of AVG at all. AVG provides a command-line scanner called avgscanx.exe in the installation folder which you can easily make a batch file for. You can turn off the UI, the resident shields and whatever, and run them only when you want to perform an update. You obviously don't believe in antivirus software, so where's the logic in keeping the resident scanners running and then complain about the performance hit? According to you they don't work anyway and they deny user responsibility! So why use an ineffective tool to help other people now? Why not just use your "flawless" browsers?

    I'm sorry, but you don't dictate what AVs are and are not supposed to do. It's high time for a more practical view, and not stick with antediluvian notions, because the bad guys certainly aren't playing nice and by-the-rules.

    No, but if you want to complain, then don't do it in a completely meaningless fashion that benefits nobody. You're saying that people should use third-party browsers and take responsibility for themselves. If you don't believe in the concept of antivirus software, that's all well and good, but I don't see how that complaining is supposed to be helpful for AVG, unless you want to say that they should just give up on their antivirus business and contribute code to Firefox instead.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  6. waters

    waters Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Now lets talk about the real world.
    All the friends i have are not security crazy.They just use an antivirus and firewall.They have never heard of Nod,kaspersky etc.They never talk about antivirus programes and to them the computer is for other things and they just happen to all have avg free.Now with all the problems with link scanner and slowdowns they may change.
     
  7. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Hello,

    Yes, the mainstream form needs to be abolished. The computer as a personal device was devised in the late 70s, a world so much different than today. Thus, people cannot be just left run free with their little machines with no responsibility and consequence.

    Answer: computer licensing - just like driving.
    And if you become a bot or so, you pay a fine. Very simple.

    Thus, only people skilled enough to use the powerful thing called computer will be allowed. Just like cars, guns etc.

    This is called "white-listing."

    Your other examples are irrelevant so I'll ignore them politely.

    Now, regarding analysis. You don't have the time... Oh really. That is the responsibility I was talking about. That computer is attached to the web. It's not your backyard. You have the moral responsibility to THINK and make sure your actions don't compromise others.

    90% of the annoyance I encounter on the web is because people fail to use their brains.

    And how you do it? Well, once you decideto open up your mind, I'll be more than glad to assist. However, here's a free tip:

    DO NOT EXECUTE FILES YOU DOUBT ON YOUR MACHINE...

    You got 90% of the wisdom there. The rest is just polish.

    Now, regarding AV, the last bit:

    I was not complaining about AVG 7.5 performance hit. It's one of the lightest things ever designed. But when it's successor takes a 600% increase in resources, I voice a complaint.

    I never said AVs don't work; please don't extrapolate. I said web scanners do that. Please pay attention.

    I never said I don't believe in AVs; please don't extrapolate. Please pay attention.

    AVs are tools designed to do a certain function. That was 25 years ago. The reality has changed since. Simply making AVs bigger and bloatier is not the solution.

    Analogy to our world: you don't see flying tanks capable of diving underwater. That is because the tank, as a weapon, was not designed for something like that.

    Neither were AVs or any black-list scanners. These are linear tools. The bigger they get, the slower and less effective they are.

    They can still be used to some extent in the context of file scanning, but it should definitely be something like on-demand. Execution control should be handled by other means, the first and foremost of which is the user.

    The simplest altnernative is to disallow auto-execution of any new files in the operating system, something implemented in unix some 30 years ago - the famous 777 for directories and 666 for files. This still needs to be introduced to Windows.

    Once you get that, the "real-time" element is virtually nonexistent.

    Enough for now. Waiting for responses so I can play smart some more.

    Mrk
     
  8. jdenton

    jdenton Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Exactly. Contrary to what you seem to believe, I don't like getting infected. Which is why I'm using an antivirus!! And here you are, waxing lyrical prose about security and responsibility, and in the same breath saying that AVs should be taken away because they "deny user responsibility". It's like taking away brakes from cars. "Bah, they should look before they drive into a dangerous situation... irresponsible saps..." :rolleyes:

    And as I've mentioned earlier, I'll just ignore the rest of your spiel concerning your little utopian world.
     
  9. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Hello,

    You obviously mix things. Please pay attention. Otherwise it's difficult to argue.

    Cars - not you don't take away brakes - but YOU DO GIVE OUT A LICENSE. Aha! Do you see everyone driving? I don't. Same with computers. That's how it should be.

    Deny user responsibility - I SAID THAT FOR WEB SCANNERS NOT AVS.

    Mrk
     
  10. jdenton

    jdenton Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    And the difference is?

    I think it's obvious by now that it's not AVG you have a complaint against, it's... uh... whatever it is you're complaining about...
     
  11. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    He's complaining about the built-in LinkScanner that scan the web-site before you go there NOT AVG AV-scanner. That's pretty obvious.... :rolleyes:
     
  12. jdenton

    jdenton Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Well, if that's the case... then as far as I can tell he wants AVG to scrap it in favor of a browser program... o_O
     
  13. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Man, these threads lately are just becoming little balls of flame. Alright, I need to say something. It's directed at Mrkvonic and, hey, I admit, it's a fairly uneducated opinion I'm about to spew out. That being said, there are a few things I want to address:

    1. You state in a previous post that problems are never a browsers fault but only the users fault.

    2. You "expect" a user to know what is good or bad and make a judgement.

    3. You say choice of browser determines your safety.

    4. You want to make people get licenses (this is exactly how it sounded, feel free to correct me if you did not mean this literally) in order to use computers.


    1. Excuse me? How is it my fault that bugs/holes/whatever make it into a browser that allow it to be exploited? The last time I checked, my work badge did not say Microsoft/Mozilla/Opera on it, and I don't recall creating any browsers lately. Oh, you want me to use security addons to cover those holes? Ok, there goes my performance hit which you so desperately can't live with in your own words.

    And, oops, Noscript has a flaw in it and Adblock Plus had flawed lists, so now my browser has a hole, my protection has a hole, so that's all on me, feel free to send me to the whipping post I guess.

    2. Right there is one of your biggest problems, you expect people to do the same thing you do and to know the exact same stuff you do or "they get what they deserve". So John Doe's little daughter Jane goes to her favorite Winnie the Pooh corner of Disney.com and gets infected by a virus or has her browser hijacked and God knows what all else, and her daddy's security apps didn't stop it because it's an unknown and the website was clean yesterday.

    But, we know how those mischievious little Chinese hackers are and their mass malware attacks come out of nowhere and attack perfectly legit websites. BUT, since little Jane didn't know about such things as malware and viruses, and only wanted to see Tigger bouncing around on her screen, and daddy's software hadn't been updated to detect this particular threat, well, that's just too damn bad, they should have known about everything about there and learned how to analyze code, so they can basically go to hell.

    3. Your choice of browser argument holds partially true....for now. When Firefox and Opera are used more than IE, your argument will fall flat on its face. It's the same thing as Linux vs Windows, Linux isn't affected because damn near nobody uses it (in comparison to the amount of Windows machines).

    4. Have people get licenses huh? I wish you luck with that. So now the grocery store, the bank, the government, civilians at home, the local Wal-Mart, all these places should have every person that even presses a key on a computer be licensed to operate it. So even grandma needs to go to whatever office you have planned up and apply for a computer license and pay for it then and for a yearly renewal just so she can email her favorite grandson and they can share pictures of his Little League games?

    Just who are you trying to make the bad guys out to be here? Your post came across as saying we're responsible for the Internet...newsflash, we don't own it, we can't do anything about it. Also, just who do you propose to pay for the startup, overhead, and everything else to get the wheels of this plan of yours in motion? The government? Sorry, they have all their cash tied up in Iraq and feeding the world's children before they feed their own.

    Should we pay for it, in the form of new taxes? Try that one and let me know the country's reaction to it. It's your plan, are you going to pay for it? Also, so we do all get licensed, and this stops the virus/malware creators how? So we know how to protect ourselves, what planet do you currently reside on and what type of atmosphere does it have that is causing you to believe that these guys will wake up one day and say "Oh crap, they had all these tools for years to keep us out, now they know how to answer the popups, we lose!"

    I mean you no personal jab or disrespect Mrkvonic, but perhaps you really should be the one to "think about it".
     
  14. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    I wonder whyo_O
    Oh yea, I know why. :D ;)
     
  15. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Lol, I can't argue with you on that.
     
  16. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Hello,

    dw, I know that my plan is far-fetched. I'm aware of that.

    1. Excuse me? How is it my fault that bugs/holes/whatever make it into a browser that allow it to be exploited? The last time I checked, my work badge did not say Microsoft/Mozilla/Opera on it, and I don't recall creating any browsers lately. Oh, you want me to use security addons to cover those holes? Ok, there goes my performance hit which you so desperately can't live with in your own words.

    And, oops, Noscript has a flaw in it and Adblock Plus had flawed lists, so now my browser has a hole, my protection has a hole, so that's all on me, feel free to send me to the whipping post I guess.

    My answer:
    You need nothing special to use a normal browser and enjoy the web. And the holes and such are a little overrated in the media. But feel free to interpret the threats as you feel right.


    2. Right there is one of your biggest problems, you expect people to do the same thing you do and to know the exact same stuff you do or "they get what they deserve". So John Doe's little daughter Jane goes to her favorite Winnie the Pooh corner of Disney.com and gets infected by a virus or has her browser hijacked and God knows what all else, and her daddy's security apps didn't stop it because it's an unknown and the website was clean yesterday.

    But, we know how those mischievious little Chinese hackers are and their mass malware attacks come out of nowhere and attack perfectly legit websites. BUT, since little Jane didn't know about such things as malware and viruses, and only wanted to see Tigger bouncing around on her screen, and daddy's software hadn't been updated to detect this particular threat, well, that's just too damn bad, they should have known about everything about there and learned how to analyze code, so they can basically go to hell.

    My answer:
    Honestly, I do expect people to treat the web with the same respect they treat mushrooms they find in the forest, the strangers they meet or new places they go. Once this mentality sinks in, things will look different. For as long as people treat the Internet as "my happy clickaway corner," you will get bad things happening at such an alarming rate.

    BTW, there are no legit or non-legit sites. They are all legit. It's just the matter of how many you trust with your data, family etc. As to tigers bouncing on the screen, well you could say someone only wanted to feel what it's like to get high ...

    3. Your choice of browser argument holds partially true....for now. When Firefox and Opera are used more than IE, your argument will fall flat on its face. It's the same thing as Linux vs Windows, Linux isn't affected because damn near nobody uses it (in comparison to the amount of Windows machines).

    My answer:
    When and if is difficult to predict and argue. Although I do think that if something like that happens, you will not see a linear increase in malware targeting Opera or Firefox because, you see, they are not IE. If you get a mirror reaction, then there is no difference. But since the browsers are different, so will be the propagation of threats. The same holds for Linux. You will not have the same effect of the growing market - because things that work in Windows don't work in Linux, and vice versa.

    4. Have people get licenses huh? I wish you luck with that. So now the grocery store, the bank, the government, civilians at home, the local Wal-Mart, all these places should have every person that even presses a key on a computer be licensed to operate it. So even grandma needs to go to whatever office you have planned up and apply for a computer license and pay for it then and for a yearly renewal just so she can email her favorite grandson and they can share pictures of his Little League games?

    Just who are you trying to make the bad guys out to be here? Your post came across as saying we're responsible for the Internet...newsflash, we don't own it, we can't do anything about it. Also, just who do you propose to pay for the startup, overhead, and everything else to get the wheels of this plan of yours in motion? The government? Sorry, they have all their cash tied up in Iraq and feeding the world's children before they feed their own.

    Should we pay for it, in the form of new taxes? Try that one and let me know the country's reaction to it. It's your plan, are you going to pay for it? Also, so we do all get licensed, and this stops the virus/malware creators how? So we know how to protect ourselves, what planet do you currently reside on and what type of atmosphere does it have that is causing you to believe that these guys will wake up one day and say "Oh crap, they had all these tools for years to keep us out, now they know how to answer the popups, we lose!"

    My answer:
    Yes, I expect people to be qualified to use tools. Billions of people use cars and somehow they all managed to get qualified to do that. A grandma needs a license to drive a car? She also needs one for PC so she does not become a spammer bot or an inadvertent child pornography ringer.

    Taxes? Well you pay money for security software today? What if you paid for education on computer security instead? Iraq has nothing to do with it.

    Bad guys? There are all sorts. And some wear suits and work in shiny offices and cram ads down your throat while calling it consumerism. And some lurk in basements and seek to pwn the system. And some simply get their machines infected and make the price of Internet higher for you.

    Bad people will always exist and try to peddle their trade. It has nothing to do with computers. It's human nature.

    Frankly, I must thank both of you for a nice exchange of thoughts.

    Cheers,
    Mrk
     
  17. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    When a security app. under-goes a major over-haul, it's bound to have issues once it's released to a large number of pc's that have completely different set-ups.
    When a lot of security apps. under-go a lot of major over-hauls all at the same time, it's bound to be a "major-pain" for a site focusing on....security apps.
    I feel that a lot of the "stand-alones" are trying to become the "be-alls" to compete in the present market. As a small segment of the market, those of us that believe in "layering" are having a tougher time finding those layers. For Mrk, me and plenty of others, we are voicing our disapproval about having lost a layer. AVG-users are not the only ones experiencing "growing-pains"....this forum is testament to that. :eek:
     
  18. waters

    waters Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Just a point but if an antivirus is mentioned on sites that have nothing to do with security,it is usually something like, i got rid of norton and installed Avg because norton is bloat and avg runs the lightest.Wonder if it will change now,with its link scanner and toolbars
     
  19. danny9

    danny9 Departed Friend

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Definitely has changed.
    In this case, trying is believing. :cool:
     
  20. Diver

    Diver Registered Member

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    Brevity is the soul of wit.

    Can't anyone make their point around here without writing an essay?
     
  21. Macstorm

    Macstorm Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Hi Mrk

    You summed up well here all of your complaints..
    It reads: Use Linux.. or die. :shifty:
     
  22. wat0114

    wat0114 Guest

    A healthy debate here with excellent points from the main combatants, I must say :)

    From my point of view, I like the idea of thinking outside the box, as many Wilders members are doing. Some are using HIPS, virtualizing software, alternative browsers, boot-to-restore software or other security alternatives. This is great. Antiviruses work to some extent, but look at all the posts in these forums citing fp's from their scanners. They don't catch everything harmful and alert on some files that are harmless (fp's). There's nothing wrong with looking to alternative solutions.
     
  23. WSFuser

    WSFuser Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Reminded me of zapjb's signature:

    "If you don't use Linux. You're going to HELL!!! :D"
     
  24. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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  25. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Re: AVG 8 Professional COMPLAINTS

    Unfortunately it isn't that simple :) Problem 1. Linux is fantastic, I go on there and no more do I need to worry about updating my security apps, there's lots of free software WITHOUT adware/malware, and there are great support communities. BUT, until Linux and its users can get hardware vendors to start supporting Linux more in their products and users don't need to worry about their favorite distro being hauled off to court for infringement, Linux is not going to get enough attention and use.

    Problem 2 is that just switching browsers/operating systems is not the true answer to all the problems that places like Wilders were created to address. Just tossing up Firefox with Noscript and the like is the same as a store owner putting bars on the windows to keep criminals (hopefully) out, it doesn't solve crime, it's just a means of trying to keep it from happening to you.

    The real solution is for law enforcement/government authorities to put more effort into tracking these people down and to also enact perfectly clear laws, not vaguely worded ones with loopholes galore. These laws are just now starting to come about and these agencies now realize that cybercrime/cyberterrorism is set to be the #1 threat to our security as a country and to other countries, but they've come a little late and the damage is being done daily.

    We CAN beat these guys, but it's going to take more than just switching browsers and operating systems to do it.

    Hopefully that was a little less "essay"-like for you Macstorm, hehe.
     
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