RollBack Rx + SSD?

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by rendez2k, Mar 29, 2011.

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  1. rendez2k

    rendez2k Registered Member

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    I'm sure this has been talked about before but can RollBack Rx (or similar) be used with a SSD? If yes, I assume discspace could be an issue with relatively small disc sizes?

    I've not been keeping up to date with disc backup solutions (sticking to Shadow Protect 4) so there could well be new software I'm not aware of!
     
  2. kuti

    kuti Registered Member

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    I used Rollback Rx since 6 months ago with Intel X2-M, performance is excellent, haven't got any trouble yet.
     
  3. rendez2k

    rendez2k Registered Member

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    Its a while since I've used Rollback. In terms of space, I have 120gb SSD with around 20gb free. Thats nowhere enough free space is it? Can you move the image data to another drive?

    Edit: There is apparently an issue with TRIM enabled drives, which mine is :-(
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
  4. moontan

    moontan Registered Member

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    20 gigs free space should be enough.

    No, you can not move the image data.
     
  5. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    Indeed there is. With ACTIVE Trim defragging the SSD's structure behind Roillback's back, Rollback's snapshots and database can get completely scrogged.

    With TRIM deactivated, SSD's run fine, although not as efficiently as they could with TRIM being active. What can we say... one excellent technology wrecking another:eek:
     
  6. rendez2k

    rendez2k Registered Member

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    Whats the downside to disabling TRIM?
     
  7. kuti

    kuti Registered Member

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    I actually haven't clear about this, but with TRIM is enabled on Windows 7 Pro x64, my SSD operation with Rollback Rx is totally fine. I usually modify windows visual theme and installing many applications so Take snapshot and Rollback system functions are used a lot without problem.

    Could anyone enlighten me?

    Sorry rendez2k about hijack your topic. Maybe post 5 in this link will answer your question.

    Cheers.
     
  8. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    I think you need to understand the operation of an SSD to understand this properly. I'm gonna try and simplify this a bit so those that know more, pls don't eat my throat for breakfast.:D

    SSDs are made up of CELLs that contain multiple bytes. They perform 3 basic operations... READ (a CELL, bunch of bytes), WRITE (CELL, bunch of bytes) and READ-MODIFY-WRITE (changing bytes within a CELL). The latter is a very slow operation. SO... to make a device like this as fast as it can be, you try and do as many pure READs and WRITEs as possible, and as few READ-MODIFY-WRITEs as possible. To support this, TRIM was hatched. Through Windows 7, and TRIM, the Windows OS tells the SSD device (in the background) what blocks are no longer needed (are FREE) and the SSD device, via TRIM, will realign those holes created by Windows not needing the data any more... it does this by filling up partial CELLs (so less READ-MODIFY-WRITEs) with used data, and completely emptying other cells (so pure WRITEs may be used instead of RMWs). This way, the SSD can keep itself as efficient (and fast) as possible).

    The main point from above and TRIMming is that Windows is telling the SSD what blocks may be obliterated and reorganized. On a Rollback-enabled system, Windows has no idea what blocks are really FREE... only Rollback knows. So if Windows tells the SSD to trash an empty block and reuse it, Rollback just may have lost an important piece of a snapshot, or possibly worse. I'll stop here for now...

    You should read the WikiPedia article here on TRIM... it's pretty clear about what goes on during this function...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM

    Hope this helps!
     
  9. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    You should be concerned. If Windows was using the normal "Logical Block" file system directives to ERASE/DELETE disk content, Rollback would handle it just fine... it uses a pre-driver to DISK.SYS (the main hard disk driver) to manage the redirection of Windows disk operations. But it doesn't ERASE/DELETE anything in its normal operations... it just forgets that it ever used that block on the disk and makes it available for use by something else.

    In the case of TRIM, Windows is using a brand new set of directives to an SSD (that supports them) to have the SSD do that type of dirty work in order to make the SSD as efficient as possible. Those TRIM directives are not handled by the Rollback pre-driver in any way... and as a result, I'm sure you can see the possible conflict that will be created.
     
  10. rendez2k

    rendez2k Registered Member

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    Any word if Rollback 10 will address SSD/TRIM issues?
     
  11. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    This is gonna be a difficult nut for Rollback to crack. For sure you can run it with TRIM disabled. What you could try with v9+ is to run the system for a while WITHOUT TRIM and WITH Rollback (a week), then run the system TRIMmed without Rollback and see if you really notice any performance degradation. Some users say they don't... I would think on a very dynamic file structure you would notice a difference... but many users don't have systems with those characteristics.
     
  12. kuti

    kuti Registered Member

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    Thank you very much for your info, TheRollbackFrog, I will maybe disable TRIM as well.
     
  13. treehouse786

    treehouse786 Registered Member

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    anyone? this is really important to know as i am sure there will be alot of people like like me who will not disable and therefore shorten the life of their SSD just for a piece of software.
     
  14. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    Getting the HORIZON DATA SYS people to talk about upcoming features in the v10 release is very much akin to the "Blood From A Stone" scenario.

    We keep trying to find out more...
     
  15. treehouse786

    treehouse786 Registered Member

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    the more i hear horizon datasys the less i trust them...
     
  16. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    This is a very simple issue. Expect TRIM and SSD support to become available in Rollback RX. With SSD's expecting to finally enter the consumer space within the next 3 years, they will either adapt to the market or fall by the wayside.

    I bet those companies that make defragging software already got their panties in a bunch. Defragging an SSD is the last thing you want to do. About the only possible "defragging" operation you should consider is the consolidation of free space. And that can probably be done by freeware or by the o/s.

    So yes, Horizon Data Systems will undoubtedly support SSD's and TRIM and other little things that go into the makeup of an SSD.

    Besides, the SSD is a natural for handling data patterns spit out by Rollback RX!
     
  17. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    News at 11!

    New version, Rollback RX v9.1.2696359952, available today.

    Full SSD + TRIM support.

    FYI!
     
  18. treehouse786

    treehouse786 Registered Member

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    thanks mate :thumb:
     
  19. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    ...but there are a few issues currently being discussed on the Rollback forums with the new version, tread lightly.
     
  20. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

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    Dearest Frog,

    Thanks for the information.

    Kindest regards,

    KOR!
     
  21. mike21

    mike21 Registered Member

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    Do you know if raid is supported in this build? o_O
     
  22. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    Hi Mike! Here's the link they published upon release (2-days ago)... no RAID mentioned.

    http://www.horizondatasys.com/177440.ihtml
     
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