Reverting from ATI 2009 to Version 11

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by bornconfuzd, Jun 10, 2009.

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  1. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello to Everyone,

    Recently I completed my first home build, (specs in my sig), and found that neither ATI 11 or ATI 10 recovery disks could see internal or external drives, not USB, sata or Esata.

    I posted my problem here and Acronis kindly shipped me an ISO image for a new recovery disk for ATI 11 which worked fine.

    In the meantime however, I had downloaded the trial of ATI 2009, created a recovery disk and found that it also worked seeing all my disks, saw all my previous backups etc. and decided to purchase a copy.

    Once I received my new copy of ATI 2009 I thought I should at least give it a tryout.

    After using it for the last couple of weeks I've decided to revert to ATI 11 and use the special recovery disk Acronis sent me.

    First, I can't see where there's anything new in 2009 functionally. The UI is spiffed up but I really prefer the UI of 10 and 11. They are just easier somehow.

    I don't use Acronis Secure Zone, Cleanup Utilities or Try and Decide. Nor do I use ATI to back up individual files or programs like Outlook. All those things are better managed in other ways or by other utilities. For instance, I use CCleaner almost exclusively for cleaning out my browser cache and temp files, Windows "Copy" to backup a single file or group of files, and a handful of other utilities.

    I use ATI for backing up, restoring, adding a new disk or occasionally cloning a disk. To me, the rest is just clutter.

    In fact I would have to say that ATI 2009 is less functional than 10 or 11!

    I can no longer delete backup files from within Windows Explorer but must do so from within ATI 2009.

    "Backup Places" is gone along with the limits you could set on it.

    But most importantly to me, the ability to schedule automatic full backups is gone! ATI 2009 offers only full with incremental or full with differential backups and something called automatic consolidation. Well, that's not quite true, I can schedule automatic full backups but unlike ATI 10 or 11 which would allow you to keep as many previous full backups as you wanted, (through the use of backup places), ATI 2009 will keep only the latest full backup overwriting the previous full backup with each new backup!

    Call me crazy, but I just don't like or trust incremental or differential backups. It's waaaay too easy to lose track, accidentally delete one, or have one corrupted ruining the whole string, in my opinion. Besides, as a PerfectDisk user who has it running on a schedule every couple of days, ATI incrementals will be nearly as large as a full anyway, resulting in no savings of either time or disk space.

    As far as time savings is concerned, ATI 2009 actually takes more of my time since I am forced to manually run backups in order to keep 4 or 5 full backups on my second internal hard drive.

    I've been using Acronis for the last few years and it has saved my butt more than once! I hope to continue using it far into the future, so I'm not writing this as any sort of product bash, it's just my opinion based on my circumstances and preferences.

    I expect I"ll be forced into ATI 2009 or later when I migrate to Windows 7, but for now I'm sticking with ATI 11 on my new machine and ATI 10 on my older Dell.

    In the meantime, I strongly encourage Acronis to reconsider forcing us into this incremental nonsense. If some want to use it that's great it's there, but please, give us back the ability to schedule only full backups keeping as many fulls as we want/need or have space for. That feature of 10 and 11 was truly elegant, I miss it a lot!

    Thanks,

    Larry
     
  2. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello Larry,

    Thank you for choosing Acronis True Image Home!

    We appreciate your comments on Acronis True Image Home 2009. We've registered them in our Customer Listening System where all important enhancements, complements and complaints are stored. It helps us to make our products and service better taking into account our clients experience.

    But no all of your statements are correct.

    1. There are no more backup locations but their functional is realized by means of "Automatic consolidation" options of the Backup Wizard.

    2. You can delete backups from within Windows Explorer. Note that if you explore the backup before you try to delete it, it will remain blocked by Windows Explorer. You should close the explorer windows and open it again to unblock this file.

    3. You can schedule only full backups keeping as many fulls as you wish. You have to use "Backup method" options of the Backup Wizard, and set "Create new full backup after" "0" incremental or differential backups. Each time the task is started a new full backup will be created and it will not replace the old one.

    Thank you.
    Daniel Pustovoy
     
  3. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Daniel,

    I see how you can argue that the functionality of Backup Places is replaced with Automatic Consolidation, but to me it's not nearly so straightforward. With backup places and the limits I could impose on it all I had to do was create my schedule/schedules, aim it at my Backup Place and would always have the number of full backups I wanted.

    With Automatic Consolidation I'm forced to schedule and create and deal with incremental backups.

    Also, with Backup Places once the schedule was set each backup was a single process but with Automatic Consolidation I have to setup a schedule for ATI to make a full backup, decide how many incrementals my little mind can cope with, try and schedule them between runs made by my defragmenter software, decide how often I want Automatic Consolidation to take place, and hope to high Heaven that all of that works properly each time.

    To me, Acronis has replaced an elegant process with a Rube Goldberg device.

    I stand corrected regarding deleting backups outside ATI. I had read that backups could only be deleted from within ATI in this forum so many times that I just took it for gospel. But to clarify, are you saying that a backup can be deleted outside ATI 2009 with no ill side effects on ATI 2009?

    Thank you for pointing out that I can schedule only full backups by choosing 0 incremental or differential backups but isn't that actually tricking ATI? I mean, I have to first choose Incremental or Differential, then choose 0 Incremantal/Differential, and then go back and choose Full. Otherwise the box for choosing 0 Incremental/Differential backups is grayed out.

    Then, even if the above works, and I can keep multiple full backups, how do I put a limit on those backups? Don't I then have to keep an eye on the backups and manually delete the oldest ones before my disk gets full and backups come to a halt? If so, I might as well have just manually created full backups. Thus my contention that ATI 2009 is not as functional as ATI 10 or 11.

    Thank you for responding!

    Larry
     
  4. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    Regardless of "how" the underlying program performs automated managemetn of full-only backups (by trying to make incs but skipping them if incs number is set to zero), the interface could offer the user, in a simple way, the options to make only fulls and delete old ones after xxx limits are reached. This is what is diff form ATI 11. And the number of experienced users that were thoroughly confused by ATI12/2009 interface in this regard attest to the inadequacy of the current interface in this regard. It wasn't even Acronis that informed users of the workaround, it was a user that informed us all. Th workaround is kind of elegant when you think about it, but the ATI 12/2009 interface is not (in this regard).

    Otoh, ATI 12/2009 handles more current hardware than prior versions, so it has that going for it.
     
  5. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Shieber,

    I see now, that ATI 2009 can be forced to do only full backups by using the workaround, but I'm not so ready to agree that it's simple.

    Also, could you clarify your statement about "delete old ones after xxx limits are reached"? Are you saying this can be done now, or that it's something which should be available? Sorry, I'm a bit dense sometimes. :)

    I agree that ATI 2009 handles more new hardware, which is of course, what we should expect of any software, that it keep up with changes in technology, and it's why I speculated that I would be forced into using ATI 2009 when I migrate to Windows 7. Also, ATI 2009 worked out of the box on my new build, where ATI 10 and ATI 11 would not, until Acronis kindly sent me an iso for ATI 11 rescue disk which does work.

    I just get the feeling that Acronis wants to force us to use incrementals in our backup strategy and for the life of me, I can't understand why. To me, the simpler the backup strategy, the better, at least for the average home user.

    I know that when you get to the large network and the corporate world things change dramatically, but for the rest of us, all we really need is a good full backup. Sometimes we need to go back a bit further, so having a few backups on hand is a good idea.

    I should note, I've referred several times in my posts to "backup" when what I really mean is "Image". I use the terms interchangeably and in error I believe.

    While I'm sure there are many changes that could be made to ATI 2009, both technical and surface/UI, the one change that would win me over right now is to put back the straighforward ability to schedule full only backups with limits on the number kept.

    Well, unless you're correct Shieber, and I can already do that.


    Thanks,

    Larry

    I'm editing to say that i just read Shiebers post # 5 here. https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=244793 where he effectively answers my questions above.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009
  6. bodgy

    bodgy Registered Member

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    Just for information purposes :)

    Echo Workstation will do what you want. Like TI 11 though it won't be able to read TI 2009 image files.
     
  7. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Daniel,

    In item 2 of your previous response you stated that I was in error when I stated that images could only be deleted from within ATI 2009. While I suppose technically you're correct that I could delete them from Windows Explorer, ATI 2009 manual specifically recommends against doing so. Image of ATI 2009 manual chapter 11.6 "Removing Backup Archives" is attached.

    Could you please clarify?

    Thanks, Larry
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello bornconfuzd,

    Thank you for using Acronis True Image

    You are correct, you should delete the backup files from within the program interface only. This 'limitation' has been implemented for Acronis True Image Home 2009.

    Thank you.

    --
    Oleg Lee
     
  9. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Oleg,

    Thank you for your response clarifying the issue of backup deletion!

    I notice that you put the word limitation in quote marks. Does Acronis not consider this a limitation? Perhaps it's considered a feature? If there is a benefit to limiting deletions to only from within ATI 2009 I'd like to know so that I can be clear in my own mind about it and no longer consider it a drawback when compared to ATI 10 or 11. I'm no tech guru so if my thinking here is incorrect please sort me out!

    Your feedback is appreciated! :)

    Thanks,

    Larry
     
  10. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    rotflmfao

    "This limitation has been implemented" [italics added]

    Only Acronis would assert that it's shortcomings are implmentations. Maybe that's why it's so hard for Acronis to fix some of them.

    Having the database allows ATI to do a couple of things it couldn't do before, but at a cost that seems hard for some of us to justify.
     
  11. aet01

    aet01 Registered Member

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    I think you may be on to something!! That may be exactly why things are not being fixed.

    It certainly does make it hard to address issues if customer service isn't identifying bugs as bugs, and the developers are being shielded from the customer feedback.
     
  12. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Shieber,

    Until or unless Acronis can explain "limititation" in quotes and define the benefits I will have to agree with your well placed skepticism.

    I'm hopeful that Acronis will respond with a satisfactory explanation and that they'll quit worrying so much about bloating their otherwise fine software with "utilities" that most of us neither want or use and concentrate instead on providing the best imaging software available.

    Thanks,

    Larry
     
  13. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello Larry,

    Thank you for using Acronis True Image

    All previous versions of Acronis True Image Home allowed to delete the archives by means Windows Explorer.

    The entire algorithm has been changed in Acronis True Image Home 2009. Acronis True Image Home 2009 stores information about the backup archives in a metadata information database, also it places the records about the archives into Acronis scheduler. If you remove the archives with Windows Explorer, the program is unable to change the records in the database and Acronis scheduler, the program thinks that the backup files are still present.

    Therefore, you should do this from within the program.

    It is not a bug, the program was designed to work in this way.

    Thank you.

    --
    Oleg Lee
     
  14. jehosophat

    jehosophat Registered Member

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    Oleg please could you program a parameter so that we have the option of this new way of working as regards the deletion of tib files.

    It seems that newer builds provide less and less choice of how to use Acronis. It also seems that what the user wants and what the programer writes is getting further and further apart.

    Surely you should sell stuff that people want?
     
  15. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Oleg,

    Thank you for your response!

    I think the point may have been missed somewhere along the line here. In my original post I was pointing out some of my disappointments/problems with ATIH 2009 when compared to ATIH 10 or 11.

    I actually did grasp the fact that this new "feature" of not being able to delete backup files from within Windows Explorer was programmed in, but the fact is, in my usage, that makes ATIH 2009 less functional than the earlier versions.

    I think that's what both Shieber and jehosophat were trying to get at as well.

    The problem is, that even though ATIH 2009 has the abilitity to function on more and newer platforms, it doesn't function as well nor as simply/easily as either 10 or 11.

    I'm not going back to version 11 just because I don't like 2009, I'm going back because it's easier to navigate, easier to accomplish the tasks I use, and it has the ability to schedule full only backups with a limit, through the use of backup places, that ATIH 2009 does not.

    I've dropped many programs over the years because they bloated their software up with utilities, features and functions that I simply had no use for and the one thing I wanted it to do would no longer function as it should. I'm sure there are millions of others that have done the same.

    Any company of any kind that forgets about its base in its quest for new customers will eventually drive away its base.

    I don't want a program that will image my hard drive, clean my temp files, fix my breakfast, wash the car, and walk the dog. It's not going to be very good at any of those things, including imaging my hard drive.

    I recently quit going to a particular tech forum because they took what had been one of the most popular forums on the web, had actually won awards, and remade it into some sort of "social networking" site! They drove away almost all of their longtime, knowledgeable, dedicated forum members. But, they knew better than the folks who actually used the forum.

    Sorry, I know this is too long winded and I apologize.

    I just want Acronis to know that I'm going back to ATIH 11 for as long as I can and why. I mean no disrespect, quite the contrary, if I didn't respect Acronis, I wouldn't bother.

    Thanks again,

    Larry
     
  16. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Daniel,

    I think I need to actually refute all your assertions in this post and in essence restate my original post.

    Item 1. Saying a thing doesn't make it so. The functionality of Backup Places and the ability to use it in scheduling automatic full only backups is absolutely NOT realized with Automatic Consolidation as that feature requires creating incremental backups, and then after some number of incrementals ATIH 2009 will, (hopefully), "consolidate" those into a new full backup. In ATIH 10 or 11 no such requirement for creating incrementals existed, I could schedule automatic full only backups as I wanted/needed or had room for, and I could still choose to do incrementals if I wanted.

    Item 2. Has been addressed and corrected in other posts in this thread. I was correct.

    Item 3. The method you're talking about here is not a "feature" of ATIH 2009, it is a kludgy workaround discovered by one of the members of this forum. Bless him for his efforts it will work, but it's no thanks to Acronis.

    Thanks,

    Larry
     
  17. MrMorse

    MrMorse Registered Member

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    @bornconfuzd
    With a few words:
    I agree 100%.

    When I change my hardware in future and Ti11 doesn't it recognize it anymore I will try Ti2010 (!) an will see:
    Either they support their base functions I request to 100% or not.
    If not: byebye Acronis. I don't depend on you, you depend on me. Finish.
     
  18. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello all,

    Thank you for using Acronis True Image

    I will let the appropriate department know your opinion. Understanding and responding to the needs of our customers is critical to our success and our customer's satisfaction.

    Thank you.

    --
    Oleg Lee
     
  19. bornconfuzd

    bornconfuzd Registered Member

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    Hello Oleg,

    Thank you for your response and for passing on my concerns, I appreciate it!

    I look forward to changes and improvements in ATI that will keep it the best imaging software available!!

    Thanks,

    Larry
     
  20. cranheim

    cranheim Registered Member

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    In regards to the rule that archives should only be deleted via the Acronis software, and not via Internet Explorer: My archives are out on an external HD. When I start up Acronis, it does not see my external archives until I click on Browse. Then, and only after a Browse, can I select the arcive file on the external drive I want to delete. Would it be OK to just delete the archives via windows by going to My Computer, selecting the external HD, highlighting the tib file to delete, and delete it? Is this considered a deletion by Internet Explorer? The fact that starting Acronis does not recognize the archives until I do a browse seems to imply Acronis has no record of the archives on my external drive.
     
  21. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello cranheim,

    Thank you for using Acronis True Image

    In any case it is preferable to delete the archives from within the program interface. This will help to avoid the possible errors during the backup/restore operations. Or you should manually update Acronis scheduler (the link is available here) and the database file archives.xml located in:

    - Windows 2000/XP: Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Acronis\TrueImageHome\Database
    - Windows Vista: Program Data\Acronis\TrueImageHome\Database

    Thank you.

    --
    Oleg Lee
     
  22. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    The interanl database was a feature added in ATI12/2009. PRe-ATI12/2009 one might have asked, imagine what it would be like if ATI was able to memorize what backups it had made. I guess no one also wondered what would happen if ATI couldn't keep up. For me, that single feature is a reason use ATI 10 instead of ATI12/2009. There are a couple of other dealbreakers, but that one is, imo sufficient.
     
  23. bottom

    bottom Registered Member

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    TI is (imho) a disaster-recovery software,
    archives and backups can be copied/stored everywhere,
    on DVDs, external harddrives, network drives, ...

    BUT the so-called database MUST NOT be part of the backups,
    this would be faulty by design, to say the least
    creating and restoring archives has to be completely independent
    of any internal database

    Question:
    ...EVERY (commercial) software needs a proper 'specification'
    e.g. the behaviour of TI has be well defined in all cases...
    ===> so, could someone from the acronis support team
    PLEASE explain to me what EXACTLY will happen
    if the database is invalid, corrupted, outdated or or just non-existent
    when/while i'm trying to backup/restore archives o_Oo_Oo_O

    Question 2:
    is it possible to completely deactivate this internal "database" ?
    ...and if not: when will such a turn-off-feature be added to TI o_O

    thx in advance !


    bottom
     
  24. bodgy

    bodgy Registered Member

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    Images can be restored without the database using v2009.

    At the moment, the database is basically there to provide a one stop list of all archives, their hierachy and where they were imaged to.

    In the original beta version and also in the Corporate versions there is the option of having dual imaging locations and a few medium to large network related options where it makes sense to have this database feature. In the release version of 2009, it really acts as no more than an information container and saves you having to specifically hunt down where the archive is that you want to restore or image to.
     
  25. bottom

    bottom Registered Member

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    thanks for Your quick answer !

    but i'm not really convinced (yet) that
    this database really has no hidden ugly side-effects

    quote:
    "...This will help to avoid the possible errors during the backup/restore operations...." (Oleg Lee)

    that's why i want to know the exact (=defined) behaviour
    in case of a corrupted database


    bottom
     
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