Religion

Discussion in 'other anti-virus software' started by The One, Mar 10, 2007.

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  1. The One

    The One Frequent Poster

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    After reading a lot of the posts here it looks like the security set up is a religion.
    Everybody is convincing eachother that their religion ( set up) is best.
    Stand alone is better than a suite or Kaspersky is better than NOD32. But what is better? Better detection rate? Better heuristic engine? Is F-prot really better than Dr Web?
    Sometimes it looks like a war at this forum!

    Another funny thing. Everybody is convincing the other that the virus test, where their own antivirus didn't come out very well , is a lousy test. pcmag is a better test than the one in pcworld. av-comparatives is better than virus.gr

    But what is important to a security set up? Detection? Heuristics? Firewall? Antivirus? AntiSpyware? Antispam? "Offcourse it can't slow down my pc?"

    Isn't the most important thing that it will work well on your own pc? Offcourse it will detect viruses. Offcourse it will detect malware. One will do it a bit faster than the other. But most of them will surely keep you safe. The biggest threath sits in front of your pc.

    Maybe the security set up which will prevent your pc from malware isn't the right set up for you. Antiviruskit for example will probably keep me safe the best, but it won't run normal on my pc. So my pc won't be safe at all.


    So enjoy your own pc. Respect everybody. Offcourse keep sharing your ideas and opinions. But keep in mind. Every person is another human being so is every pc.

    have fun;)



    The One
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2007
  2. TairikuOkami

    TairikuOkami Registered Member

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    You are right, but it is not a real war, just a good will. When someone thinks, that that security software is the best, he tries to convince others to use it, because he does not want them to get infected, so he actually only wants to help them. Do not forget, there is just one security god, who will protect you against all nasties and it is called ... [​IMG] . [​IMG]

    Ok, seriously, the rule number one is, that there is not such a thing like the best software for everyone, because someone prefers performance over detection, heuristic over big updates.
    Well said and by the way, interesting viewpoint into the security, brothers and sisters. ;)
     
  3. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    there is no war,

    and if people didnt give their views and reviews on such software, what would a forum turn into, isnt that the purpose of a forum :)

    everyone helps each other out when needed, simple as. :D
     
  4. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    people have a tendency to be very passionate about things they like. And Security apps are no different. If a certain person has what they feel is the better AV they will be very adoment about it's virtues. It might at times seem that there are arguments going on but in reality it is just a bunch of people very passionate in their views of their present setup and why it is better than the rest. It is not a war but just a very animated discussion of a subject close to their hearts. All in all a very good learning experience.:thumb:
     
  5. Smokey

    Smokey Registered Member

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    You can replace the word "War" by "Chit Chat".
    Everybody here feel the need to give their own opinion, no matter it make sense or not, that is the reason for endless Chit Chat threads about all possible topics.

    The real Security Experts on the forum with real knowledge are the smartest people here: they keep silence and smile;)

    Regards,

    Smokey
     
  6. waters

    waters Registered Member

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    virus test results make me laugh.I love to read people praise the test when they do well,and make excuses when they do not.I hope free ones keep improving because they will be more funny.It isnt always to help people,some here will try their hardest to get people to change to their choice,even though most times it is just personal choice.
     
  7. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Registered Member

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    You guys here with all your favourite AVs are like all the different Christian denominations. Catholic, Protestant , Seventh-day Adventists etc

    But you guys don't seem to realise that there are other religions out there (call them muslims or even atheists)that have no faith at all in the basic concept of Antivirus.

    For example, at the brother subforum https://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=35 it is "common knowledge" that Antiviruses are on their way out if there are not already useless.

    See for example below for a common view

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=959359&postcount=8
     
  8. Billy Blaze

    Billy Blaze Registered Member

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    Many who use behavior blocking/sandboxing type programs use them in a way complimentary to their current antivirus product. The one major problem with behavior blocking software is that it is up to the user to properly identify what actions to allow/disallow. That goes for sandboxing applications that have trusted lists for applications as well. We also have already seen malware that bypass some virtual environments. And not to mention there is a certain amount of "added inconvenience" with most of these types of programs as well.

    Antivirus software has already begun to change over the last few years with focus in "new" areas. And until the above "issues" are addressed by these "other anti malware" type programs, the antivirus will always have its place.
     
  9. JerryM

    JerryM Registered Member

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    I doubt that the mods are going to permit a very long discussion of religions, although I would enjoy it myself.

    As to AVs and detection, I don't buy the gloom and doom. I have confidence in the better ones, and do not believe the doomsday security folks.

    I would say that if one doesn't believe an AV is any good, then don't use one.
    I don't much care what the experts see in the future. I can only operate on what I know today, and what is available to me now. So far it is working.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  10. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    this thread is getting stupid, im very suprised bubba has not arrived, talk of muslims and christians and atheists, geeeez.
     
  11. Alphalutra1

    Alphalutra1 Registered Member

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    <Snipped> ~ All your base are belong to us :ninja:

    Actually, I do see some people go at each other over av's, but as long as it is positives about one av, then I am fine.

    Where it gets out of hand is when people start to constantly criticize another av, such as "the support sucks" or "I just don't feel protected" or "This product is horrible", then don't provide any factual evidence to back it up.

    However, I don't really care, since an av definetly is becoming a thing of the past in my humble opinion

    Cheers,

    Alphalutra1
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2007
  12. Menorcaman

    Menorcaman Retired Moderator

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    You're right Jerry! Two Four unecessary OT posts placed in the padded cell.

    Lets stick to AV matters please folks. Thanks.

    Menorcaman
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2007
  13. Escalader

    Escalader Registered Member

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  14. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Registered Member

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    You mean real religions like Christianity? Nah... I was just drawing an analogy, since someone brought up the word "religion".

    That's not how it works. People are paranoid here. Even if they don't think it is any good they will still use if there is a 1% chance it might be useful. So you see people bashing AVs, but listing AVs in their setup (next to sandbox, behavior blocker,firewall etc, just in case... :)

    We *are* talking about AVs. My point is that while you guys are squabbling about which AV is best, people in the other parts of the forum are practically telling the world AVs are pretty useless with practically no one to contradict them except for the odd poster like BZ.

    If their view wins the day....

    Examples of what I mean.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  15. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Registered Member

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    Did you even read the thread?
     
  16. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Registered Member

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    Are you saying these "new" areas are effective (taking into account user costs) or not?

    In the last sentence you seem to imply they are not.

    But in the sentence before that you seem to acknowledge that AVs should take into account these areas.

    If so, what makes you think AVs are going to be better equipped than existing vendors who are already in the area, in focusing on these 'new' areas?
     
  17. TairikuOkami

    TairikuOkami Registered Member

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    I met people, who are complete atheists, as well as I am, so they use no security apps.
    I am not willing to rely on apps, especially AVs, that are known to miss so many nasties.
    I would give much more trust to HIPS or a whitelist application, which are actually better.
     
  18. Billy Blaze

    Billy Blaze Registered Member

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    What I was referring to was when antiviruses once depended highly on signatures and concentrated mainly on detection of just viruses. Since then we have seen the rise of heuristics and the detection of other malware including trojans, spyware, and rootkits. Kaspersky's PDM is another example of a feature that "evolved" into the antivirus software. What an antivirus can not protect you against is when you should turn to tools like Rookit Unhooker and such. What an antivirus does not have detection for a behavior blocking/hips program like SSM should notify the user of. As I see it the antivirus is on the front line of defense.

    Which brings me to my point...
    Current antivirus software has its weaknesses too as far as providing protection to the user, and for the most part these "other anti malware" solutions (hips/behavior blocking/sandboxes) you refer to seem to fill some of those weaknesses in antivirus software. They work complimentary of each other.

    I said antiviruses currently still have a place in today's security setup which I believe.

    They should and some have made efforts to do so. Antivirus solutions HAVE evolved. But nowhere have I stated that just because they are evolving and adapting to new threats does it make an antivirus the ultimate solution. In my eyes I actually see it as one of the bare minimum necessities in a security setup.

    You missed a very key point in what I was saying above in that I see the antivirus as complimentary to the other solutions you mentioned.

    I did not say they would. And in recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of both antivirus and "other anti malware" solutions it should imply that I dont. I personally have not invested in any Antivirus suite (AV, firewall, etc all in one) for this reason.

    But like I said antivirus developers are working hard in these types of areas and maybe in the near future we will see a suite that does provide security that betters/rivals that of the multi vendor security setup. Remember antivirus developers do borrow technology from "existing" vendors as well. And from a business standpoint antivirus vendors have much more staying power than most smaller vendors that depend on the "one trick pony." Whether good or bad tell me how much revenue do you think was lost from smaller AT companies when AV vendors started actively including trojans in their detection?
     
  19. herbalist

    herbalist Guest

    It is a war, but malware is the enemy. Everyone has their preferred weapons. Many still use AVs, even if they are the equivalent of a civil war musket on a modern battlefield.
    I hope it's not a religion. The way some here switch from one security app to another, the software gods would be very displeased.
    Rick
     
  20. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Administrator

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    An important part of the process of learning is being able to objectively assess what you know and what you don't know. An absolutely critical observation in Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments (note: direct link to pdf file) is that a real appreciation of one's knowledge gaps occurs when one starts to develop knowledge in a field. As the authors of that work note: "Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities."

    This is a general finding, independent of the specific subject matter. It applies to each of us in various contexts. If you've ever had to quickly come to grips with complex material outside of your area of expertise, you will have certainly experienced this feeling, especially if you've gone back and reassessed some of the ideas held as you've acquired additional knowledge in a field.

    As for myself: the more I learn, the less I know....

    Blue
     
  21. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Registered Member

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    Ah the classic study... Also

    "Specifically, top-quartile participants appear to have
    fallen prey to a false-consensus effect (Ross et al, 1977). Simply
    put, these participants assumed that because they performed so
    well, their peers must have performed well likewise. This would
    have led top-quartile participants to underestimate their comparative
    abilities (i.e., how their general ability and test performance
    compare with that of their peers)"

    "It thus
    appears that extremely competent individuals suffer a burden as
    well. Although they perform competently, they fail to realize that
    their proficiency is not necessarily shared by their peers."

    I.e The smartest and most competent people think everyone else is as good as them. At least initially...

    For me, I Only Know What I don't Know, But I'm Learning all The Time! ......
     
  22. Frank the Perv

    Frank the Perv Banned

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    There is only one true religion for PC security. That is my religion.

    I am issuing a fatwa for jihad on the infidel The One.
     
  23. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Hello,
    To answer the initial questions / points:

    When people need to convince someone their setup is better - it means they are not really convinced it is so. When you know your setup is good, it is, it does not matter what test says what. How would you know you know? Well, that's the tricky part - and here learning kicks in.

    Discussing which AV, AT, AM, AF, whatever is the wrong approach, methinks. It's like discussing the colors of your drapes, when you're not even sure you'll have Windows (a nice analogy I got here, he he he he).

    The goal is to understand what you need, what you know - how much damage you can self-inflict - and then prevent yourself from making those mistakes, since after all, computers are only machines and nothing happens out of the blue - you're responsible for everything, from the moment you plug it into the wall.

    Compatibility and fun are also nice addons.

    Most people here are connoisseurs discussing their favorite meals, while none is really on any sort of diet. More like a startrek convension discussing phasers and whatnots. Fun, hobby and a tiny bit of paranoia.

    Mrk
     
  24. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    well i see we are getting back on topic at last in this thread,

    i for one, dont use av on tests alone :)
    but sure, i do get into debates about it, and its fun to sometimes if its all kept above board with no real slagging off.

    the thing i love in the 'war' is when someone can use an AV due to a test result, and on the next results published they aint sure about it and their attitude changes, this is just wrong.
     
  25. JimIT

    JimIT Registered Member

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