Moving From 80GB Samsung to 160GB Seagate Drive - Need Help

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by TryBackup, Aug 24, 2006.

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  1. TryBackup

    TryBackup Registered Member

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    Good Morning,

    I have a new Dell Dimension 9150 PC (same as the Dell XPS 400). I am using Windows XP with 1GB Ram. The PC came with a Samsung 80GB hard drive, which had System Restore set to on. I also have a Western Digital 250GB My Book external drive. I have installed TI 9.0 and updated it with the current 3677 build. I have also been successful with creating a TI rescue bootable CD. I have been successful at creating full validated images of the 80GB drive using the bootable CD and while in Windows (although I have never restored an image, only mounted to see that it was readable). I have read many posts on this very helpful forum and read the 81 page TI user manual. I understand the intended uses for backup vs cloning. But have also seen recommendations for using an image to move to a new larger internal drive (some have had bad experiences with cloning).

    I want to install my new 160GB Seagate SATA internal hard drive and transfer all data from the current 80GB Samsung SATA hard drive to the new 160GB drive and boot from the new 160GB drive. As mentioned, I have already imaged (using the TI Rescue CD which I created with the 3677 build), validated and mounted an image of the current 80GB drive.

    When installing the 160GB drive, Seagate had me use their DiscWizard. This program got the new drive recognized by the PC, formatted the drive (one 160GB partion), and copied all the files from the old drive to the new drive. After this process, I was able to remove the 80GB drive and boot from the 160GB drive. The problem is that MS Office 2000 stopped functioning due to an unlocatable update loader packet (or something like that), which I was able to fix with a utility I downloaded from Micrsoft and by reinstalling the program. Also, for several file types, files and/or shortcuts had the wrong icons showing (which I fixed by spending alot of time in the File Types folder). Everything else seemed to work (2 PC home network, internet, McAfee Security Suite, etc.) except for two things that I have discovered so far. First, the new drive has only the primary partition. My old drive had 3 partitions - Fat16 47.03MB, Fat32 3.478GB, and NTFS(C:) 70.97GB. The other problem I noticed last night was that System Restore has a problem loading on the new hard drive (it worked fine on the old HD). When I try to enter System Restore through Start>All Programs>Accessories>System Tools>System Restore, System Restore does not load and the PC wants to report the loading error I assume to Micrsoft. This makes me feel very uncomfortable with the way Seagate moved my data to the new drive.

    Now that I have taken so much of everyone's time with the above, I hope that you can tell me the best way to fix the 160GB drive (not my first choice) or to redo the data transfer (restore image or cloning) in a way that everything works with no need for me to fix anything (Microsoft Office, icons, system restore, etc.).

    Sorry for the long post. I wanted to make sure I gave all the details so that you have all you need to share your knowledge.

    Thank you in advance.
     
  2. bottom

    bottom Registered Member

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    ...seagate "DiscWizzard" really seems to suck,
    as copying 3 partitions into one will hardly ever result
    in a fully working windows setup !!!
    fixing this mess isnt recommended

    you should...
    a) make sure that your 80GB is safe and protected !
    b) create a rescue cd of latest TI
    c) reinstall 80GB hd, set it as master (but don't boot into windows)
    d) set 160gb hd as slave
    e) use rescue cd to boot up TI
    f) clone 80gb to other hd (don't mix up source and target hds !)
    [this will ultimately delete all data, you changed / added to your 160gb hd]
    g) shutdown pc, remove 80hd, set 160 as master
    h) restart pc

    hope this helps AND works


    bottom
     
  3. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    Or as you already have a full image of your old drive all you need do is to have the new drive in place as master and restore your image to it and reboot. It is possible to resize the old partitions as part of this restore process but I prefer to do it the easy way and resize as a separate operation.

    To resize create a temporary secure zone with the unallocated space and then use the same wizard to delete it. This will give you the choice of where to allocate the newly released space. The whole job only takes a few minutes.
     
  4. dld

    dld Registered Member

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    I agree with this procedure. The one caveat I have is g) shutdown pc. It would seem from other threads that once you exit TI you cannot shutdown the pc in the normal way (see this thread.) What I did was to wait until the computer powers down and then pull the plug before it reboots. Then you can remove the 80GB and set the 160GB as Master. All of this to avoid having Windows see two C: drives.
     
  5. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

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    This is a simple and proper procedure to follow. To add a little further for your understanding of how your Dell 80GB drive is currently set up:

    1. The small partition (located as the first physical partition on your drive) is the Dell Diagnostic partition you boot into with F12 at startup.

    2. The 3GB partition (located as the last physical partition) is your Dell PC Restore partition which you access at bootup with Control plus F11. This allows you to restore your Dimension to the state it was in when you opened the box (you lose any changes, programs, data since initial boot). This is valuable if you really screw up your drive.

    3. The C partition as you know is the active OS, programs, files partition and is the only 'visible' partition.

    If you do anything to the Dell drive to modify your master boot record, like repartition or change partition sizes or activate Secure Zone, you break the Dell PC Restore feature forever unless you want to hack to re-enable it using Goodell's procedure. You should try to preserve the Dell restore function, if possible.

    Windows System Restore is a real waste in my opinion. With TI, you may as well turn it off and save all the resources it wastes. It never really works correctly, anyway, with most complex programs and drivers in my experience and it leaves your drive and files a mess after you use it.

    As was laid out for you by Bottom and others, clone your Dell drive while its restore function still works. Then, I would create an image of both the newly cloned Seagate and the original Dell drive and store those images somewhere safe for future recovery.

    Good luck.
     
  6. TryBackup

    TryBackup Registered Member

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    Thank you all for your responses. Unless Bottom and Dld have strong objections, since I am more familar with the selections that need to be made during a TI restore (although I have never done a restore to completion) and because I am concerned about missing the brief opportunity to pull the plug on the 80GB drive before the PC reboots itself, I think I will go with Xpilot's suggestion to restore my 80GB image (it is dated 8/21/06 and nothing much has changed in the past 3 days).

    I do have a couple questions about the partitions on the 80GB drive and System Restore. This drive came with the Dell pc with these partitions already setup. The only partition I have access to for data is the C NTFS partition. I assumed the other 2 partitions were setup by Windows XP SP2 for some reason (maybe for system restore or for something else). Do any of you know why the Fat16 anf Fat32 partitions were needed? And why did the the Seagate format of the 160GB hard drive not setup these partitions as well? I know when I attached my WD My Book 250GB external drive, Windows XP automatically began monitoring this drive for system restore purposes, so why didn't Windows XP automatically setup System Restore when I installed the 160GB drive?

    Thank you again
     
  7. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

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    It looks like you missed my post, above. It answers your questions.

    If you follow XPilot's advice you will destroy your Dell PC Restore capability, as I warned could happen by messing with partition resizing above.

    You really need to decide whether Dell PC Restore has any value to you. If not, delete the 3GB partition. Same with the Dell Diagnostic partition - if you don't think you need it you can delete it. You may learn the hard way, though, that when calling Dell for warranty support they may ask you to Perform a Dell PC Restore and, more likely, to run Dell Diagnostics.
     
  8. TryBackup

    TryBackup Registered Member

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    bobdat,

    I was almost done writing my questions when you posted your additional information. I saw your post right after I posted my questions. Thank you for answering my additional questions before I could ask them :).

    QUOTE:
    ======================
    If you do anything to the Dell drive to modify your master boot record, like repartition or change partition sizes or activate Secure Zone, you break the Dell PC Restore feature forever unless you want to hack to re-enable it using Goodell's procedure. You should try to preserve the Dell restore function, if possible.
    ======================

    You said that I would break the Dell PC Restore if I changed partition sizes. When I clone the 80GB drive to the 160GB drive the C partition will be much larger than it is now. Won't that destruy the Dell PC Restore as well?
     
  9. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    I am sorry bobdat you have not grasped fully the advice that I gave.
    1. Nothing is at risk at any time. The original drive is not even in the computer while the restore is made so there is no way it can be affected. This I regard as the perfect fall back in the very unlikely event that anything should go wrong.

    2. Creating and then deleting a secure zone leaves the partition structures and boot records in exactly the same shape as they were before.

    The only proviso that I have assumed is that the disk image is of the whole disk.

    However lets assume that you are right and the Dell partition somehow gets screwed up. That is still not a problem. The original image is intact. The restore can be started again which clears out the target disk and then the slightly more lengthly Acronis resize restore procedure can then be undertaken.

    What ever procedures I use on my own computer and certainly any advice I give to others always involves a way of ensuring that no one ever gets painted into a corner.
     
  10. bottom

    bottom Registered Member

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    i thought...
    a) TryBackup's image was only a partition (or file/folder) backup, not a hard-disk image
    b) this image was somehow outdated
    c) the backup was stored on the 80hd anyway

    seems all above is wrong, so Your advice is perfect (...which isnot the first time)


    bottom
     
  11. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

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    I don't know why some advice givers get so proprietary and sensitive about their suggestions but that's not my problem....

    To address your questions specifically, here's what I know from experience:

    When you are working with a Dell drive you must be mindful of the limitations regarding master boot record changes. There is no room for changing just a little bit. You either change the MBR or you don't. You can't change it a little or here and there and expect your Dell PC Restore to continue working. Nor, can you restore an image of your Dell drive and resize the partitions while you restore it and expect to have an unchanged restored MBR. In other words, resizing partitons and/or activating Secure Zone whether it's before, during or after an image restore will break the Dell feature on the drive where the changes are made.

    However, TI's cloning feature allows you to get around this limitation. You can resize your partitions during the cloning operation and the Dell PC Restore feature will still work on the newly resized clone drive. And, as long as you choose not to delete the partitions from your 80GB drive, it too will still work when installed in your Dimension as the boot drive. Remember, you cannot have two bootable drives in your machine at the same time if one is a clone of the other.

    My recommendation is to clone your drive and manually resize the partitions so that you retain the same Diagnostic and Restore partition sizes and increase the C partiton size to fill all available space between these two 'hidden' Dell partitions. I do it all the time and I know it works on my Dell 3000, 4700, 700m, 5160, 6000's, etc.

    I also know that I have never been able to get the Dell PC Restore function to work after using TI9 to restore an image by restoring and resizing partitions and restoring the imaged MBR separately. It just doesn't work on my machines and I believe it's because of the MBR changes that result from resizing partitions while restoring images as compared to the resizing that occurs as part of cloning.

    Maybe someone from Acronis who actually knows WHY this paradox exists can comment on it.
     
  12. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

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    I think you mean well but I have to strongly disagree with your characterization of what can and cannot be done to a Dell-imaged drive and what changes the MBR and what doesn't.

    In a nutshell, ANY change you make to a partition's location or size and especially whenever you activate Secure Zone absolutely modifies the Dell MBR and breaks the Dell PC Restore function.

    I wish it was not that way but that's the way it is, like it or not. Your continued suggestion that resizing or activating SZ is safe for these types of Dell drives is bad medicine.
     
  13. starsfan09

    starsfan09 Registered Member

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    Dell computers come with a Hidden Partition that stores this "Cntrl + F11" feature. This partition is created using Norton Ghost 10.
    The Dell "Cntrol + F11" Restore restores the computer to the day you first turned it on. As time passes (10 months later), and new software updates, and device drivers are released, this is not a good idea ...because you have to remove a ton of stuff just to install the Newer updates. All this...sounds like problems to me.

    When I got my Dell XPS-400, I turned it on...just to get the system specs. Then put the Windows Installations disc in, and DELETED this hidden partition. Then, Re-Installed Windows XP as a full C:/ drive.
     

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  14. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

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    Dell may be offering the 90-day trial version of Ghost only on the XPS series. Inspirons, Latitudes and other Dells use the older Dell-standard Ctl+F11 proprietary Dell PC Restore, which is also a Ghost-based backup system, just not the retail promo of Ghost 10 you got.
     
  15. starsfan09

    starsfan09 Registered Member

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    This is my point. Any Dell computer you buy now a days, comes with Norton Ghost on it. Which means that Partition is Encrypted, and also means... other "Disc Imaging" programs like ATI will probably have a heck of a time trying to make an Image of the entire HD. This explains why a lot of folks that have Dells are having problems when they do a Restore with ATI.

    I think one is better off getting rid of the "Crl+F11" all together, and deleting that partition. You're "trapped in that moment in time" with software, and drivers. I mean, Dell frequently posts new BIOS, Video card, Sound card, Ethernet, Optical Drive(s), and other software and driver updates. I don't think it's a good idea to keep "Uninstalling" the OLD,.. and Installing the NEW. The chances of Problems and unfixable System Errors...are bound to occur sooner or later.
     

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  16. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

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    That's partially true. The newest XPS systems which have the embedded Ghost 10 partitions with the 90-day trial MAY be problematical but the rest of the Dell drives - those with the standard Dell PC Restore and Diagnostic hidden partitions are no problem for TI to either image, clone or restore.

    Problems arise when partitions are changed, resized, or Secure Zone is activated and the user finds that the MBR is altered, breaking the Dell PC Restore function. That happens with other manufacturers who use hidden restore partitions, as well.

    I like my new Toshiba laptops which have separate DVD's packaged which include the original hard drive image restore program on them so you can set up a clean drive and not worry about hidden partitions.
     
  17. starsfan09

    starsfan09 Registered Member

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    My brother got a HP in March, 2005. It came with 9 CD's that he used to Restore it. But however, it slways took it back to March, 2005... that had about 6 programs he had to uninstall before he could install newer versions.
    He doesn't use them anymore because of the hassle he had to go through.
    When he finally let me do "Operation Wipe Out", he couldn't believe the difference!!! He thought I got him another computer. LOL!

    My friend, I still think you're better off doing "Operation Wipe Out", and putting a Fresh layer of Windows down, and appling all your new updates ...freshly.;)
    This eliminates any potential problems you could have.
    Yeah, it's scary Reinstalling XP, ...but however, the more you do it, the better you get. And the better your system runs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2006
  18. Menorcaman

    Menorcaman Retired Moderator

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    Hi guys,

    Be careful with the terminology! :p. One doesn't "activate" the Secure Zone (one merely creates it), it's the Acronis Startup Recovery Manager that needs to be "activated". Creating an Acronis Secure Zone on its own isn't a problem for the Dell (or other manufacturer's) special hidden recovery partition - it's choosing to also Activate the Acronis Startup Recovery Manager that causes the proprietary MBR to be altered.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2006
  19. starsfan09

    starsfan09 Registered Member

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    Sorry Wilders Forums, but I have to post this for Menorcaman. LOL!!!
     

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  20. TryBackup

    TryBackup Registered Member

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    In July 2006, I purchased 2 Dell PCs. My main PC is now a Dell Pentium D Dimension 9150. My secondary PC is now a Dell Pentium 4 Dimension E310. The 9150 came with the non-Ghost Dell PC Restore. The screen looks like an old DOS program. The E310 came with the Norton Ghost 10 PC Restore. On the E310. after a Ctrl+F11, I am taken to the Ghost 10 screen, where one of the options is "return your Dell PC to its original when-first-purchased state" or something similar to that.

    When I received both PCs, I spent some time (too much time) removing all the programs and offers I had no interest in. For the E310, that included declining the Symantec Norton end user agreement and removing the Ghost 10 files through Control Panel > Add/Remove Programs. I even followed the instructions that I found on the Symantec site to remove remnants of Ghost 10 and Live Update after an uninstall. Even after this, there were still plenty of registry keys that included Symantec or Norton, but I left them as I did not want to modify the registry unless I had received specific instructions to do so. I guess since Dell is using Symantec for its PC Restore feature on certain PCs (including the E310), only a drive reformat or deletion of the extra (non-C) partions will finally rid me of the Ghost.
     
  21. starsfan09

    starsfan09 Registered Member

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    Trybackup,
    You're better off doing "Operation Wipe Out" instead of removing a hundred programs. Registry Keys, along with "Orphaned" files and folders.... left over from uninstalled programs can cause huge problems. Also, as you Reinstall XP, deleting that hidden partition is super idea!

    I mean, don't get me wrong. Dell makes a great computer (well, I've never had any problems with them). I can certainly understand why they put the Restore partition on the HD. It keeps them from spending numerous hours troubleshooting problems over the phone. Now a days, they just have your Restore it.
     
  22. TryBackup

    TryBackup Registered Member

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    Hello everyone,

    I have read all the replies to my original posting, but it seems there is some disagreement as to the data transfer method I should use and the expected result after using either the cloning or restore image method. However, what I have taken from the posts is that what is at risk if I transfer my data from the 80GB internal drive to the 160GB internal drive the wrong way is my future access to PC Restore, System Restore and Dell Diagnostics.

    Since I am now using True Image, I agree with starsfan09's position regarding PC Restore. Since PC Restore will revert my PC back to the state it was in when I first received the PC, I doubt that I would ever use PC Restore. I would rather just restore a recent TI full disk image. Alternatively, if the TI image restore did not work, I would not mind manually re-setting up the PC from the program disks I have and copying data files from a mounted recent TI image. I have formatted drives and manually loaded operating systems, programs and data files on previous PCs before I had the TI program. Besides, not using PC Restore to recover from a disaster might save me from having to re-remove all the unwanted Dell promotional trials, etc. bobdat has expressed having alot of problems using System Restore, so again I prefer to rely on a TI image restore before resorting to using the seemingly problematic System Restore. My feeling about Dell Diagnostics is different. I ran Dell Diagnostics for the first time yesterday and liked the fact that it checked the functioning of so many internal components of the PC.

    Based on the postings in this thread and my own feelings about the three utilities discussed above, I could easily live without PC Restore and System Restore, but would like to continue to have access to Dell Diagnostics. To avoid any possibility that I may lose access to Dell Diagnostics I am assuming that I should avoid damaging/deleting either of the hidden Dell partitions, just in case there is some functioning in those partitions that I am not aware of.

    Since I do have a full TI 9.0 image of the source 80GB hard drive, I can always experiement with both 1 - restoring the image to the 160GB target drive, and 2 - cloning the 80GB drive to the 160GB drive to see what happens. If something goes wrong, the source 80GB hard drive will not be damaged, so I can always try again.

    Thank you to everyone who has provided guidance so far. Every post has helped me gain a better understanding of what went wrong when Seagate copied my data from the 80GB to the 160GB drive.
     
  23. TryBackup

    TryBackup Registered Member

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    I agree with you 100%. I just hate starting over like that when my brand new shiny PC is running so well. In the past I have not had to spend too much time removing unwanted offers/programs. However, with the PCs I purchased in July, it seems like Dell is getting much worse with the amount of unwanted programs they put on the PCs. For example, since I had planned on using the ZoneLabs ZoneAlarm Security Suite, I specifically selected "no security software" when purchasing one of the PCs from Dell. This "no security software" was a valid selection on the Dell online order form. I preferred not to have to remove any trial security software since I have heard some of these security suites are hard to fully uninstall. However when the PC arrived, Dell had ignored my option preference and had installed a 90 day McAfee Security Center trial. Since it is there, I will use it for the 90 days. But I will have to follow some likely multi-step process to get McAfee completely off of my PC before I can install the ZoneAlarm Suite. I have heard that any remaining remnants from a previous security suite can cause major conflicts with installations of replacement security suites (remnants from Syamntec's security suite has been the reason for a number of bad ZoneAlarm security suite installs). I would force Dell to send a technician to my home to remove this McAfee "software spam" from my PC, but Dell would probably just use the Add/Remove programs feature and neglect to remove all the remnants. :(
     
  24. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

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    You can delete the Dell PC Restore partition because you decided it has no real value to you. Fortunately, the Dell Diagnostic partition will continue to work for you even after you modify your drive if you observe a couple of simple precautions:

    1) The Dell Diagnostic partition can be separately retained and will remain functional as long as you leave it in place (the first physical partition on your drive). You can repartition all around it and it will still work even with a changed MBR.

    2) Whether you clone or create an image, as long as you select the entire drive, the Dell Diagnostic partition will be captured appropriately.

    3) You can restore the disk image all at once or by selecting partitions and resizing any partition including the Dell Diagnostic partition and it will still work as long as you locate it as the first physical partition and retain its format.

    What I have done when I wanted to do a clean XP reinstall was boot with my XP CD, delete all partitions EXCEPT the Dell Diagnostic partition and then repartition and reinstall my OS.

    Also, at the point you describe you're at after uninstalling the Dell trial stuff, you can use any number of methods to delete the Dell PC Restore partition and then resize your C partition to reclaim the unallocated space. Just leave the Dell Diagnostic partition in place and it should continue to function for you.

    As a recap, the Dell Diagnostic partition will measure no more than about 50-100MB (very small)and be located FIRST on your drive. The Dell PC Restore partition will measure upwards of 3GB and be located LAST on your drive.

    Good luck.
     
  25. starsfan09

    starsfan09 Registered Member

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    Trybackup,
    I'm not sure, but I believe Reinstalling Windows will "alter" the Dell PC Restore, ...therefore leaving it uselss. I may be wrong, but I'm reallly sure one of the Dell Techs told me that.
    When you buy a Dell, ...they don't actually sit there an install everything seperately. They use a Universal Disc that installs the software and drivers for specific hardware detailed in the order. So basically, you're getting an "Image" on your computer. :cautious: Unfortunately, that Image consists of all the Promotional software trials as well. That's why your New PC came with the stuff you specifically told them NOT to put on it.
    How do I know this?? I've been inside the Dell location in Nashville, TN.

    If you want to Reinstall XP, ...make sure you have the disc. If you don't, call Dell Tech Support, and ask them to send you one. As a matter of fact, tell them to send you 3 discs.
    1=Windows XP 2=Dell Resource CD 3=Software Utilities.
    They'll ask why you want to Reinstall XP. Tell them you just want to do to make it run better. They'll ship the discs to you for FREE.

    Dell Tech Support will walk you through Reinstalling XP, in case you're not familiar with it. Recording the conversation with them on the phone would be a good idea as well...just in case you want to do it again one day.;)

    Before you begin though, check your system specs in the "Device Manger". Expand all the little +'s, and take a Scren Shot of it. Save the JPEG.

    The "Dell Resource CD" will have drivers for your system, but however, there is probably an update on the Dell web sight. Click H E R E to go to the Dell download section. Type in your Service Tag, and you'll see all the updates available for your system. Check updates for your Chipset, BIOS, Video card, Sound card, Ethernet card, Dial up modem, DVD-Rom + DVD Burner (Optical drives), and etc. Gather all you can get, and save them on a disc.

    NOTE:: If there is a BIOS update, and also,... Optical Drive Firmware updates (DVD Rom + Burner)......install them immediately!
    All the other updates are for later after Reinstalling XP.

    After Reinstalling Windows XP, you'll install the drivers in this order.
    1. Chipset (if you have MCE 2005, then install Dell Desktop Software after the Chipset install. If not, then don't install it.)
    2. Video card
    3. Sound card
    4. Ethernet
    5. Dial up modem

    Then your done. Now, just apply your personal settings, ..and install all the Programs you want.
    In case you're wondering if this will VOID your warranty, don't be.
    Re-Installing Windows XP....WILL NOT Void your warranty at all.
     
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