Kaspersky has gone bad

Discussion in 'other anti-virus software' started by Fly, Apr 28, 2009.

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  1. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    Not my opinion, just facts, FYI:

    Upon installation of KIS 2010.0.0.340:

    (Not in the EULA)

    Kaspersky Security Network box (while it would seem to pertain only to KSN, what I've marked in red seems not limited to KSN, and there is more that you might want to read)


    ~Copyrighted material removed. Obtain permission before posting copyrighted information. See the TOS.~
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2009
  2. Eice

    Eice Registered Member

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    Unless you're a trojan botmaster trying to steal people's banking passwords but are afraid Kaspersky's going to snitch you to the police, I really don't see what's the point of all this overreaction.
     
  3. Baz_kasp

    Baz_kasp Registered Member

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    If you read your ISP's terms, I am sure they will have something similarly worded if not exactly like above, and most software that has a data collection statement will include a clause regarding their legal/good faith obligation.

    If a court forces Kaspersky to reveal data, then they will have to do so..... then again there is no personally identifiable information transmitted by KSN so there is not much to reveal- use a packet sniffer and see for yourself.

    You are also making it sound like opting into KSN is set in stone and not something you specifically have to specifically accept (twice, may I add) during the installer (currently) before it is enabled and you can opt out before installing or any time after that by deselecting the option for KSN.

    There is nothing in that EULA that is so shocking that warrants all this panic mongering.... it is quite simple- if you do not trust Kaspersky, do not use their products, or opt out of the data collection clause.
     
  4. TonyW

    TonyW Registered Member

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    Some info re: KSN as used in the 2009 products: http://support.kaspersky.com/faq/?qid=208279940

    If users are concerned about the disclosure to third parties when required by law as referenced in the KSN Data Collection Statement, this isn't anything new. Where the law is involved, every product using similar services has to have that legal binding. I think you'll find most other services that collect data will have similar legal statements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  5. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    I didn't know that the KSN conditions were copyrighted material o_O
    (part of my post has been removed)

    Anyway, in post #27 there is the part that I objected to in particular.

    While it (see#27) is part of the KSN conditions, there is an explicit reference to what Kaspersky calls personal information. KSN isn't supposed to collect personal information. Personal information = name, address, bank/credit card data, email address, IP etc. Regardless whether someone participates in KSN, Kaspersky gets this information when you buy the product. It seems unlikely that Kaspersky will not act as in #27 just because you didn't sign up for KSN.
    IMO this information belongs in the EULA or something like that, not in the KSN conditions.

    About the law: putting it simply: it's really a question of which laws apply (jurisdiction).
    About: 'good-faith belief': this is really open-ended, especially with the clause 'associates, property or others'.
    I guess whether you find this acceptable depends on how much faith you have in this company.
    I tend to have little faith in companies, especially the larger ones.

    I suppose it's impossible to have a paid-for AV and know for certain that only laws of one particular jurisdiction will apply, and that no information will be shared/released out of 'good faith' without subpoena or warrant, or sold/shared for commercial reasons.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  6. steve1955

    steve1955 Registered Member

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    If you buy Kaspersky products you do so through a third party(element5 etc)so Kaspersky don't actually have credit card details,perhaps you should do a little more investigating before claiming a company cannot be trusted! the only thing they are likely to get is your email addy,sometimes needed in support cases
    I think it's probably best if you avoid Kasperky products if they instill such paranoia in you,but then again probably every other anti-malware vendor is likely to cause you to have the same suspicions
    Another point to bring up is that 2010 is a beta product and should only be run by users who are willing to give at least some info to any vendor they beta test products for:-that is the idea of beta testing.to iron out any bugs found for that the details of the users pc will be needed:-to determine which other apps etc cause problems when running with the product being tested,or would you rather every beta test was done in secret with no info getting back to the develpopers?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  7. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    Look, I don't want to quarrel or nitpick.
    Please understand that Kaspersky is available in other countries than the USA, and that in other countries bank transfer or similar is more common than using a credit card.
    Even so, Kaspersky requires registration with personal details if you pay by credit card. I don't know if fake data will work, probably not.

    I understand many people are 'fans' of Kaspersky, not without good reason, they offer a powerful product.

    With regard to AVs: pick your poison :rolleyes:
     
  8. zfactor

    zfactor Registered Member

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    imo this is the way everyone is going to be soon enough. they will all state the same type of eula and as someone said if we want it then agree if not then move on.. many companies are starting to add these types of notes to the eula's of late and imo more will come.

    they are not collecting anything you dont want them to. they will not be collecting credit card number as you type them etc that would not fly with any court anywhere imo..
     
  9. steve1955

    steve1955 Registered Member

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    I'm in the UK not the USA,you're now making spurious claims to try and justify your original unfounded allegation:-if you buy Kaspersky online through the Kaspersky site the actual "billing" is done by a third party,so no matter how you pay your details do not got to Kaspersky:-you can buy through other places(Amazon for example)which you do without even accesing the Kaspersky site:-do you think they hold credit card/bank details of users who have bought the product this way as well?your not one of the many conspiracy theorists that seem to abound nowadays are you?
     
  10. TJP

    TJP Registered Member

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    This has to be the funniest thread I've read on Wilder's in quite some time.


     
  11. Baldrick

    Baldrick Registered Member

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    Have to agree...hilariously sad IMHO. :argh:
     
  12. steve1955

    steve1955 Registered Member

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    I can't argue with that!
     
  13. Macstorm

    Macstorm Registered Member

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    2 much BS & FUD 'bout KL's KSN & EULA. IMO :D
     
  14. 3x0gR13N

    3x0gR13N Registered Member

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    You can use the packet sniffer, which is in the product. :) And why does that matter anyway, since it doesn't send your credit card number, address, pants size etc. ? Home users wouldn't care less about statistical info strictly about malware being sent...
     
  15. Sully

    Sully Registered Member

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    Now this is a switch. Peeps come to Wilders because they want to control what is going on. Security, privacy, whatever. Here a thread exists with one's opinions that maybe a product is out to take information. Others say 'poo'. Now it has reversed, where the 'poo' supporters say don't worry about it, let them have control if they want, no harm.

    Does that strike anyone as strange to suggest that it is now in this context stupid to want to have more control over your computer, the very reason really for coming here?

    Sul.
     
  16. TonyW

    TonyW Registered Member

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    It depends on what you want to control. The issue of KL's EULA regarding the Kaspersky Security Network shouldn't be one to worry about as the legality clause within that is standard amongst many software vendors today irrespective of the country they reside in. I believe that is something you cannot control other than either not use that component or the software at all.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2009
  17. NICK ADSL UK

    NICK ADSL UK Administrator

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    Please note that I have had to remove a couple of posts that were rather derogatory in tone.

    Any further post's made in bad taste will be removed and the thread closed so do be mindful when posting.

    thank you

    nick
     
  18. Sully

    Sully Registered Member

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    I suppose one would want to control what is going out of thier machine. Period across the board. If the EULA you choose to accept grants that, eh, what can you do.

    I think it is a switch though that so many here with so much experience can just chide someone for wanting that control and to use a product still. Not much can be done about it, just an observation I made that seemed sorta strange considering so many here really want to control thier systems.

    Sul.
     
  19. steve1955

    steve1955 Registered Member

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    yep:-just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get you!
     
  20. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    Fly,
    I'm not a Kaspersky user so I can't confirm or deny any of it, but I do understand your concerns. I don't trust sites, companies, people, etc I don't know with personal info, no matter what their reputation is. When a site/product wants personal information, I fake it. If that doesn't work, then I either didn't need their product or I'll find another way to get it.

    A company can demand anything they want in an EULA and make you accept it before an install will run, but that's all they can do. No AV or EULA can force you to allow their product to connect out at will. It can't stop you from writing a firewall rule that denies it internet access or limits it to when you want to allow it.
    You have other options you can choose. There's other ways to secure a PC that don't require an AV. I lost faith in AVs years ago. The last AV I had installed was AntiVir 6. If having control over outbound traffic is something that you consider necessary to your security, consider implementing a default-deny security policy that includes a good rule based firewall. It takes some time, knowledge, and planning, but when done right you can put an end these and other security problems and spend your time using your PC instead of securing it.
     
  21. TJP

    TJP Registered Member

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    Lets get a few points into perspective:

    Kaspersky Labs do not, at any stage, require the user to submit any personal information.
    One only enters their personal details when buying their products online, using a trusted reseller, as listed on the Kaspersky website. The personal information you provide to the reseller is the same information one provides for other reputable online stores such as Amazon, HMV etc.

    Further, if said user is that concerned with the Kaspersky Security Network submitting system information, one can very simply opt out both at product installation and at any subsquent time.

    One other point: Kaspersky adhere to all applicable EU and US laws, according to their "data collection statement".

    To be honest, I'd be more concerned with ISP tracking and rumoured back doors into my chosen OS than what system information Kaspersky may collect.

    Cheers.
     
  22. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    (partial quote)

    Just one point: one doesn't have to buy Kaspersky from a reseller.

    Kaspersky.com or Kaspersky.x are not resellers.
    My local Kaspersky.x (not USA) offers KIS at a low price, so looking for a reseller didn't even occur to me. From what I gather, it's an official Kaspersky Lab(s) website. And yes, you have to register with your personal details if you want to buy something. I doubt if fake data would work, especially regarding payment, support and possibly legal issues.
    So I'd give Kaspersky my personal details.

    I don't want to argue, just pointing this out.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2009
  23. steve1955

    steve1955 Registered Member

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    On the Kaspersky site you enter basic details address name and payment TYPE the site then redirects you to anther site:-(this is UK version from Kaspersky .com!)from the Kaspersky site

    Digital River GmbH (element 5) is the seller of the products in your shopping cart and your contractual partner. The publisher and product ID for each product are listed below. Please be sure to state the product ID(s) when contacting us so that we can assist you quickly and efficiently.

    They then take payment DETAILS,please note payment TYPE and payment DETAILS are a completely different thing,wow on the Kaspersky site you may give them details that you have a visa or some other card,not really much good in regard personal privacy issues is it!?!you don't pay Kaspersky directly for the product nor do you give them any card,bank or other DETAILS
     
  24. TJP

    TJP Registered Member

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    I can't find any privacy issue with Kaspersky's purchasing setup at all, perhaps I'm not paranoid enough.

    One doesn't have to buy online if one so chooses.

    Fly, if you are so concerned about buying Kaspersky products online, why not buy a boxed copy of KAV/KIS from a so called "bricks and mortar" store? The peace of mind of not entering your sensitive personal information should help negate any differential in price.

    Cheers and goodbye!


     
  25. steve1955

    steve1955 Registered Member

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    Buying it that way someone may see your face!!That is very personal information(unless you've got a double!)
    I'm going out tomorrow and buying a supply of latex gloves to wear when I write any letters,just in case I leave some DNA on the letter or the envelope!
     
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