Is 5 Ghz wi-fi better than 2.4 in terms of EMF pollution?

Discussion in 'hardware' started by Perene, Nov 24, 2018.

  1. Perene

    Perene Registered Member

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    I posted about this in EMF forums and so far I have not read any good explanation about the differences between 2.4 and 5 Ghz from wi-fi routers. In order to understand what I am talking about please read the first two quotes...

    And I received these replies:

    I am not merely questioning the accuracy of these meters... this is still obscure, since I haven't been able to use any of the Gigahertz models that can detect 5 Ghz.

    What I am interested in finding out is if 5 Ghz (the signal coming from wi-fi routers) is so different in nature than 2.4 that the meters weren't lying, so they are really less "powerful" in terms of range, less capable of reaching greater distances, so that explains why even from a very short distance it reads less (in the EMF meter) than 2.4 and it's negligible beyond that distance according to these 2 EMF meters.

    By the way I can get good results in my entire house with 5 GHz only (and 2.4 disabled), except, of course, the two dead-zones which are the bedroom number 3 and the kitchen, which have thick walls blocking the signal (in diagonal) with more efficiency.
     
  2. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    TL:DR

    I don't really know what you are asking (because I'm too lazy to read all that) but note 5GHz can be interfered with just as easily as 2.4GHz. But it typically has less problems simply because there are many more devices operating in the 2.4GHz range than there are in the 5GHz range. And there are many other devices like microwaves, garage door openers, remote controls, cordless phone etc. that operate in the 2.4GHz range too. Plus there are still many older wifi networks that only operate in the 2.4GHz range and if you live in an apartment complex or crowded neighborhood, that can be a significant factor.

    Yes, 5Ghz signals have a shorter range and can be more easily blocked by barriers (floors, ceilings and walls). But 5GHz offers much better bandwidth for greater speeds.

    If you have connectivity with 5GHz, use that. If not, that's what dual-band routers are for.
     
  3. Perene

    Perene Registered Member

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    It's funny how these meters are saying 5 Ghz signal is a lot less stronger than 2.4 but I still get very good speeds from my 120/10 Mbps internet. In my living room I think I can get up to 80, 90 Mbps.

    Of course the living room is 2 walls in straight line from the router. Like this:

    ROUTER ----------------- WALL ------- MY BEDROOM ----------- WALL ----------- LIVING ROOM

    https://i.imgur.com/r0ogR9L.jpg

    (click to open in a new tab/window)

    The red circle in these images (see above) is when the wi-fi signal hits a wall in its path.

    The living room gets good signal; the kitchen in diagonal has lower RF radiation, and can be considered a dead zone, since the wi-fi (if it gets there) has to pass through much thicker walls. There's a corridor that leads from the bedroom where the router is, to the kitchen.

    What is implied by the Cornet ED88TPlus and Acoustimeter is that 5 Ghz is less pervasive than 2.4 (due to being able to reach a shorter distance).

    The difference between them in terms of RF radiation can also be seen in the iPAD device, when the latter is only using 5 Ghz.

    What I don't know is if the meters are underestimating how powerful the 5 Ghz wi-fi signal is, or if they are both correct and the most logical conclusion is that using 5 GHz is better in terms of EMF pollution.
     
  4. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    I don't see that as funny at all. Do not assume a weaker signal strength automatically results in degraded speeds. For example, if the receiving end only needs 3mV of signal strength to obtain full bandwidth/speed, getting 5mV will not improve those speeds. It is only when the signal strength drops below that necessary 3mV that speeds may suffer.

    Also, it is not just about the number of walls but the construction and contents of the walls too. A brick wall, for example, may block more signal than a simple wallboard wall. But a wallboard wall full of electrical wires and metal water pipes may block more than a concrete wall.

    Simple things can improve reception, including antenna orientation. If your router has external antennas, you can try moving (or raising) them. Same if your computer has external antennas. If your signal is trying to shoot through (or bounce off) a metal refrigerator or oven, that could be a problem.

    If that were my house, I would try to put the router near the center of the house instead of that corner. At least next (and as high as possible) to that first wall towards the LR.

    Not enough information to make that conclusion. As noted before, the 2.4GHz band is much more crowded to begin with. So even with equal signal strengths, it can suffer more from EMI/RFI.
     
  5. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    OK, I'm not at all an RF expert. However, I note that WiFi uses spread-spectrum protocols. So unless your meter picks up the full frequency range, you may get misleading and inconsistent results. And if it's a meter that scans a narrow frequency window across the specified range, that scanning must be lots faster than the WiFi scanning, or you'll likely get misleading and inconsistent results.

    Also, at these frequencies, there are standing waves, with hot spots and dead spots. That's why micowave ovens have rotating food platters, and "mixing propellers" that are typically hidden under a plastic plate in the top panel. So if you're moving around with a meter, you're altering the standing-wave pattern. You gotta use a detector that's mounted on a nonconductive scanning probe or grid.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  6. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    And then you should position it as close to where the receiving antenna will be. But again, a weaker signal strength with 1 frequency does not suggest the strength is too weak for maximum throughput.
     
  7. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    So I remember a college physics lab session on microwaves. They gave each group of students a magnetron, a signal-strength meter, and some waveguide components, reflectors, absorbers and other props. Each group retired to a corner of the lab, and got to it :eek: I'm sure that we got some X-ray from the magnetron, plus of course the microwave radiation. But hey, that was a long time ago ;)
     
  8. Perene

    Perene Registered Member

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    That makes sense. One of the things I heard was that cell towers would not need to be so powerful if we didn't use 24/7 and only for more urgent/important calls.

    Then there's the fact I changed the VR900 wi-fi router settings (and the Archer C8 ):

    - Transmit Power from High to LOW
    - Beacon interval from 100 (default) to 1000

    And at least with the 1st setting the RF radiation was reduced in later measurements.

    Alasdair Philips (which developed the Acoustimeter) suggested that hiding the wireless SSID would help, too, since it's another thing that is broadcasted 24/7, however I wasn't able to see any change in the readings. I don't doubt he is right, maybe it's hard to confirm with these meters.

    I was surprised to see lower readings in both of them, anyway. They were much lower in comparison to 2.4, it was so odd that I thought the meters were faulty or couldn't pick up 5 Ghz at all.

    For example, with the Cornet (and 2.4 Ghz) I got 1.3 to 2 V/m above the iPAD. This 2.4 was from the apartment next to mine (Archer C8 router, used by my sister). Then I switched to 5 Ghz (VR900 router, much closer): 0.3 V/m. That's a 76% decrease. It's so low that any person like me that does not understand the subject will think the iPAD isn't giving out any RF radiation.

    I suspected of a flaw (or deficiency) in the meters because most devices do not use 5 Ghz, and perhaps detecting 5 Ghz would only be done better by more expensive, professional models.

    These are the two of the most recommended, however a company called Gigahertz Solutions has very technical devices (I don't own anything from them). One thing that also caught my attention is that they don't have a meter (for RF) that has a range below 2.4 to 5 GHz.

    The Cornet ED88TPlus:
    - Wide radio frequency detection range : 100 MHz to 8 GHz (–60 dBm to 5 dBm)
    - Frequency counter for on air digital RF signals (100 MHz to 2.7 GHz)

    The Acoustimeter:
    - Displays peak, peak hold, and average levels of radio frequency electromagnetic fields, covering the spectrum from 200MHz all the way up to 8GHz (8000MHz) which covers the frequencies used by most modern communication systems

    Gigahertz models:

    Frequency range:

    800 MHz to 2.7 Ghz - HF32D and HF35C
    800 MHz to 3.3 Ghz - HF38B
    27 MHz to 2.7 Ghz - HFE35C
    27 MHz to 3.3 Ghz - HF59B and HFE59B
    2.4 GHz - 6 Ghz (e.g. Wi-fi, WiMAX, Radar) - HFW35C
    2.4 GHz to 10 GHz - HFW59D

    So 2 meters are required for detecting below 2.4 (or 3.3) and above 2.4/3.3. That tells me (somehow) it isn't exactly easy to develop a meter that can go through all these frequencies.

    Here's what one review says about the HF35C:

    *********
    The thing I really like about this meter is that its a true directional meter. Which means its useful for determining where RF radiation is coming from. This is a really important feature.

    Does that mean you can just point the meter in a certain direction to know what the radiation is in a particular location from that direction? Not exactly. RF radiation is reflected and reverberated in practically any environment. Outside in a rural environment if you point point the meter in different directions you should be able to pinpoint the source of RF radiation exposures.

    But sometimes this can be difficult to do if you are in an environment where there are metal and other reflective surfaces which cause the radiation to bounce round. This is particularly true indoors. Nevertheless this meter does have true directional capability which few meters in this price range can offer.

    ************

    Alasdair made a few comments about how the AM work in this page, if they are useful please take a look: https://www.electricsense.com/7881/hf35c-emf-meter-my-review-gigahertz-solutions/

    Then there's the fact the Acoustimeter numbers are always higher than Cornet's.

    I know about this, it's just that I removed the router from my bedroom, in which it was practically in the center of the house. I placed in the room next to mine, so it's a few more meters distant from me. Since the RF radiation is reduced with distance, this goal was achieved (before it was much closer - in my desk). As a result the only dead zone in my apartment is indeed the kichen.

    I checked a few minutes ago and discovered the 5 Ghz wi-fi signal DIES completely once I enter there. All other locations are fine.

    I recorded a video from the iPAD, where you can see the signal dropping:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4opILAIUCg

    In the speedtest (I have 120/10 Mbps) the result is 93/10, which is great. Go to 1 minute and you'll see the speedtest failing, that's when I entered the kitchen.

    To fix dead zones people also buy wi-fi repeaters, what I also avoid because the goal is to reduce EMF. And there's no need for me to use internet there.

    In this 2nd video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFHX7B6eYbE

    I walk in this apartment, starting right in the aforementioned kitchen. You'll see once I leave there what kind of obstacles the router has to "defeat" to deliver the signal. The location of the router is inside the bedroom at 0:50.

    About what's inside the walls and in the path of the wi-fi signal (that can be a problem), there's a video I already mentioned, explaining this more thoroughly:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWHzuTbJ1rU

    It's called: "How Does WIFI Signal Penetrate Walls? (Illustration + Analogy)". You said to place in a higher position, and in higher places these EMF meters also display higher numbers.

    When the routers have the wi-fi turned off I still pick RF radiation from the neighbors. So it's picking signals from everywhere.

    Another interesting comment that might shed some light on this:

    **********
    One comment about Gigahertz Solutions meters. I have not personally reviewed the HF meters, as they are quite expensive and out of the range of most people who I aim to help here. Other top experts do recommend them as superior for detecting the full spectrum of microwaves and high frequencies, more fully than any of the meters I prefer. My experience agrees that the Cornet, Acoustimeter, etc, do all have incomplete coverage of the spectrum range they advertise for. Meaning the measurements may be lower than actual power levels in the air. Despite this, I consider the meters I recommend to still be the best balance in detecting and measuring. Just remember if you want perfect calibrated numbers, you must pay much more. The only other company besides Gigahertz Solutions that makes the top rated meters, is Aaronia. According to experts. Who also agree that Aaronia meters are too noisy for electro-sensitive people. So again, it becomes obvious why I do not recommend Aaronia.
    **********
    http://www.seahorsecorral.org/ehs1.html#evaluate
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  9. Soft Life

    Soft Life Registered Member

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    5g is a military frequency they use as a weapon but only turned down a bit for us to use. It's a fricking disaster if you let yourself be near it and we won't have a choice soon. We'll get sick with odd illnesses and many will get fungus which is cancer as their cells will not be able to get rid of free radicals.
     
  10. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    LOL Sounds like a course on LASERs I took many years ago. We had to design and build the necessary circuits, fire up the beam, then focus and aim to hit specific targets in the lab. These obviously were low power for training but I imagine several retinas suffered some minor burns that day. :eek: :shifty: :rolleyes:

    Anything goes to advance the sciences, huh?
    This is a bit of tin-foil hat wearing, paranoia talk. Yes, if you get bombarded with large doses of focused, high power RF at those frequencies, things might get a little toasty inside your body. But 5Ghz decades rapidly in very short distances. So "lethal" weaponization is unlikely. More likely and practical use is to target and disrupt enemy communications systems.

    The sun poses much greater risks.
     
  11. wat0114

    wat0114 Registered Member

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    I get nothing but connectivity problems on 5GHz so I keep our ISP's router at 2.4GHz, which works much better.
     
  12. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    That is unusual. Did you try changing your 5GHz channel? Assuming you are not going over great distances or through many barriers (walls, floors, ceilings), simply changing channels is often all that is needed in cases like this.

    I use XIRRUS WiFi Inspector to see what wireless channels are in use and available. NirSoft's WifiInfoView is another good one. Also popular is inSSIDer.

    With these "sniffers", you can see all the networks in your area and more importantly, see what channel they are using. Ideally, you want one that is not used elsewhere and better yet, the adjacent channels are unused too.

    Once you find an unused (or at least, less used) channel, you simply make the change in your wireless router's admin menu. You don't have to change anything on your wireless devices, they will automatically pick up the change.

    5GHz offers better wifi performance so if you can get going on 5GHz, it will be worth it.
     
  13. wat0114

    wat0114 Registered Member

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    I've tried lots of different things in the WiFi settings. The 5GHz has good download speeds, but the connection drops quite frequently. The modem is in the mechanical room in the basement in a rather bad spot. I need to find a 19" equipment shelf and bolt it to the floor joist for a place to sit the modem on. I get download speeds of 30-40 Mb/s depending on where I am in the home. It's not really an option to move the modem out of there because I have a network panel in there that connects to the ISP's feed, as well as network cabling connections to the tv's in the house.
     
  14. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    To multiple wireless devices?
    For sure, if your WAP (wireless access point - often integrated with the router) cannot be moved up into the attic, or at least a top floor closet, then I guess you are stuck. If your WAP has exterior antennas, you might try changing their orientations. Or better yet, if detachable, move them up. If your WAP has internal antennas, you can try rotating the device 90°. Otherwise, consider a different device if you start to become unsatisfied with your current 2.4GHz performance.
     
  15. wat0114

    wat0114 Registered Member

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    yes my son's laptop as well. If I plug into one of the ethernet wall jacks, I get d/load speeds of almost 100Mb! The difference between wired an wireless, at least on my ISP's router, is like night and day. Of course I expect slower speeds on wireless, I'm just surprised it's that vast. I've tried "Smart steering" in the router and that doesn't work either; it tries to stay latched onto 5GB, which is slow and even dropping my connection entirely. Maybe I'll have to call my ISP and see if they can help.
     
  16. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    This would have nothing to do with your ISP. The fact you get great speeds with Ethernet proves it is not on their side - unless, that is, you rent the device from them.
     
  17. wat0114

    wat0114 Registered Member

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    It's their device, so I'm thinking it could be the wireless functionality on it isn't working right. Maybe it needs firmware? Just speculation of course. It did get firmware update in August.

    EDIT

    it's a location issue. If I stand 6' from the modem/router in the basement I get close to 50MB dload speeds. Even on the main floor more or less above the device, I get 40 or so MB. The den where I usually sit, located on the main floor is above but opposite the devicee, I get 20-30+ MB. I'll just have to come up with a plan to move it in hopefully a better location.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
  18. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    If this is a notebook you are using in your den, you might consider a different NIC - perhaps one like this with external antennas. If a PC, perhaps a PCIe adapter with a separate antenna like this one. These options may be easier and cheaper than re-wiring the house.
     
  19. xxJackxx

    xxJackxx Registered Member

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    I have a dual band router and a laptop with 450 mbps WI-fi (5G required). The problem is that according to the documentation that speed is only good is you are less than 6 feet away from the router. If I'm that close I might as well plug in. If I got farther away the 2.4 was actually faster. If I disabled the 5G radio the 2.4 was faster still. So, I have 5G disabled on my router as it seems to accomplish nothing for me. It may not hold true for everyone, but for me the 5G lacks range too much to bother with.
     
  20. wat0114

    wat0114 Registered Member

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    Pretty much exactly my situation, except I've kept the 5G option enabled, while just sticking with 2.4G. I'm using an ISP-supplied T3200M Actiontec modem.

    I really don't don't want to go that route having to purchase and attach additional hardware to my laptop. The speed I get for what I do is fine anyway, and I do have the option to plug in from the den if need be, but since I'm frequently quite mobile throughout the home, I will likely just stick with wireless 2.4G. Maybe I'll pester my ISP to take a look. Who knows, maybe they can improve it somehow.
     
  21. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    This is where a "simultaneous" dual band router is the way to go. They are basically two separate wifi systems, one 2.4GHz and the other 5GHz and they work at the same time. More expensive but if you have multiple devices working both bands at the same time, it is the way to go.
    If you're happy with what you have, then sure, no need to spend money. But if you want to just check it out, for sure there are many that are less expensive like this one for less than $10. Just having an external antenna often makes a significant difference. And attaching it could not be easier.
     
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