IMEI and privacy

Discussion in 'privacy technology' started by Stefan Froberg, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. Stefan Froberg

    Stefan Froberg Registered Member

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    Last afternoon I cooked up some little C++ code that generates valid, random IMEI numbers.

    But there are few questions:

    1. What is the legal status of changing your phone IMEI ?

    2. If my understanding is right, IMEIs only purpose is to be able to track device in network and in case of lost/stolen phone, blacklist the said phone and it serves no other usefull purpose?

    3. What happens if there are two devices with same IMEI in the same operator network?
     
  2. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    I believe that it's illegal to change IMEI, in many jurisdictions. There's also the issue that service is tied to IMEI, no?
     
  3. Stefan Froberg

    Stefan Froberg Registered Member

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    Well, there is IMSI that is the identifier of your SIM card and that way binds you to your operator and it's services but to best of my knowledge IMEI should not be tied to your service (?).
    I don't know, haven't used subscribed phone + SIM combo for years.
     
  4. clubhouse1

    clubhouse1 Registered Member

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  5. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    Interesting that there's an exemption for the manufacturer of the device - one could argue that the DIY Raspberry Pi smartphone solutions would qualify, no?!
     
  6. Robin A.

    Robin A. Registered Member

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    I don´t understand what´s the point of this post. Of course, changing the IMEI is illegal.
     
  7. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    It is a very interesting question .

    Yes , the SIM and IMEI are loosely associated by the mobile service provider .
    But if I take a spare handset and put that SIM into it , I have effectively changed the associated IMEI and not broken any laws.

    I think that there is a credible / plausible legal argument that if you made a Pi smart-phone you would indeed be " the manufacturer ".
    I have not tried it and I do not intend to , but I'm curious as to how you would assign a valid , unique IMEI ( assuming that one is needed to get service ).

    As to question 3 from the OP , I do not know , but surely it will get flagged if the same IMEI is detected with different SIMs , in different locations ?
     
  8. Stefan Froberg

    Stefan Froberg Registered Member

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    That's a very good point. There is nothing to stop anybody for doing that. I have several old phones in my drawer and I can't believe that if I put my prepaid SIM from one phone to another Im suddendly a criminal in the eye of the law because the operator network will now get different IMEI than before.


    Funny that you and deBoetie mention Pi smart-phone, Im exactly in process of building one.
    Simcom 5320 has an AT command for changing it's IMEI
    https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/SIMCOM_SIM5320_ATC_EN_V2.02.pdf
    page 71

    It's an vendor extension and not part of the official standard but still certainly possible it seems.
     
  9. clubhouse1

    clubhouse1 Registered Member

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  10. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    On a personal level , I can get quite militant on this subject .
    My hardware belongs to me , it is not on a contract and is not the property of any employer.
    I will hack it , root it , mod it or reverse-engineer it as I please .
    The same goes for my computers ( although M$ and their legal dept may have a different opinion , especially since W10 , which I won't use ).

    Yes , I read that article some time ago and it raises some interesting points :-

    " IMEI is an un-authenticated mobile identifier (as opposed to IMSI, which is routinely being authenticated by home and serving mobile networks.)
    Spoofed IMEI can thwart all efforts to track handsets, or target handsets for lawful intercept "

    And once again it seems that the UK has far more intrusive and draconian legislation than other "civilised" nations .

    On a side issue , some years ago I was working in a EU country where it was a legal requirement to show ID to buy a pre-paid SIM.
    This was allegedly a vital anti-terrorist measure , although it was not the case in a neighbor country , with an open border ..... Doh !!

    You have to wonder what goes on in the heads of some these people ....

     
  11. Robin A.

    Robin A. Registered Member

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    The IMEI is not associated witn SIM cards, it´s an identification of the phone. If you change the SIM, you don´t change the IMEI. If you don´t have a SIM card installed, the phone still has an IMEI. Or two, it´s is a dual-SIM phone.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  12. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    o_O
    Say what now ?

    Date , time , subscriber number , dialed number , call duration , and approximate locations ( based on triangulation ) are all logged , along with other meta-data.
     
  13. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    I've always thought of the IMEI as equivalent to the MAC address - which can be changed perfectly legally.

    The SIM/IMSI is simply a handle of your account to the mobile operator, they shouldn't "need" to care about IMEI since that's handset identification.

    As @quietman has noted, they're hardly going blind with any mobile phone, home-grown or not.

    @Stefan Froberg - if you would be so kind as to keep us informed as you make progress with your project, I'd appreciate it.
     
  14. Robin A.

    Robin A. Registered Member

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    AFAIK, MAC addresses are not being used to combat the theft of devices. IMEIs are.

    Some people may not be aware of the huge problem that the theft of phones is (where do they live?), or just don´t care about it. Many people are killed in many countries when their phones are stolen.

    Where I live, the IMEI of a new phone must be reported within some time after the purchase. If not, the phone is blocked and can´t be used. If I report that the phone was stolen, they supposedly will block the phone too. But if the IMEI of the stolen phone is changed, it may be sold again, maybe in another country.

    To report here the "progress with your project" is equivalent to report the progress in a project related to an illegal activity.
     
  15. clubhouse1

    clubhouse1 Registered Member

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    I think another consideration for the use of imei is to allow police and other law enforcing organisations to tie mobile phones to criminal activities despite sim swaps etc...I watch these true crime documentaries that are on every channel and its amazing how mobiles are often the key in solving murders etc.
     
  16. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    Building a Pi phone is NOT an illegal activity, nor does it require IMEI changes - thank you. It IS relevant to those who are concerned about privacy. Information on how the project to do so is of interest to a reasonable audience concerned with privacy, and Adafruit, for example, sell the necessary parts.

    I think people may end up surprised with whether or not MAC addresses are used in LE (regardless of the legal position), and it's also quite a legitimate thing from a privacy perspective to change them, as Whonix does for example.

    You do not know what jurisdiction I'm in, nor my motives. Nor, if you think about it, will any criminals give a cuss about what you or I do or don't do, I hardly think they worry about obeying the law any more than terrorists would do regarding restrictions on encryption.
     
  17. Stefan Froberg

    Stefan Froberg Registered Member

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    Yes I know.
    Maybe my english is bad (not being native with it) or maybe you are reading too fast here's my text again

    That's a very good point. There is nothing to stop anybody for doing that. I have several old phones in my drawer and I can't believe that if I put my prepaid SIM from one phone to another Im suddendly a criminal in the eye of the law because the operator network will now get different IMEI than before.
     
  18. Stefan Froberg

    Stefan Froberg Registered Member

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    Sure thing. :)
     
  19. Stefan Froberg

    Stefan Froberg Registered Member

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    Yes but you don't really need IMEI for tracking.

    Isn't SIM IMSI number, phone number, logs of what-number-called-to-what-number-and-when and even doing the celltower triangulation for finding location (assuming that it's old phone that has no gps) enough for law ?

    I don't think that having ability to change your own IMEI (which is nothing more than glorified serial numer of your phone/tablet/3G modem) will have any impact on police work
     
  20. guest

    guest Guest

    Yep.
    If a phone is stolen, the holder can report it and the IMEI is blocked (on most carrier networks). A different SIM-card can't "resurrect" the phone .
    The IMEI can be changed, but it's basically cheating/forgery -- a change of the identification mark of the device.
    "Changing the IMEI is illegal in many jurisdictions and countries"

    In the case of a stolen phone and if a thief changes the IMEI, he is commiting two crimes:
    "Man held for changing cell phone's IMEI number":
    That's not enough for them...
    And in some countries you have to show your ID if you buy a SIM-card/phone :ninja:
     
  21. Stefan Froberg

    Stefan Froberg Registered Member

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    Then that is the trademark of the surveillance state.

    Here I can go to store, buy any cheap phone starting from about $30 go to desk and pay with cash. No id's needed.
    Same for SIM card. Go to local kiosk. Ask for SIM card (about $7 a piece) pay with cash.

    I can understand the need for asking id for guns and similar dangerous things but for phones meant for communication .... o_O

    EDIT: And asking for id wouldn't really change a thing for actual criminal who probably (at least the smart ones) would use forged id
     
  22. clubhouse1

    clubhouse1 Registered Member

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    "Here I can go to store, buy any cheap phone starting from about $30 go to desk and pay with cash. No id's needed.
    Same for SIM card. Go to local kiosk. Ask for SIM card (about $7 a piece) pay with cash."




    Same in the UK, just use a different currency :)
     
  23. clubhouse1

    clubhouse1 Registered Member

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    So without a imei phone tapping by black suits etc wouldn't be possible?....I think not :)
     
  24. quietman

    quietman Registered Member

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    The sharing of concepts , ideas and information .

    It is no more an encouragement to illegal activity than keeping a knife in the kitchen is an incitement to violence .
    That would be confusing an inanimate object with the intentions of an evil-doer.

    All of the hardware is freely available , and the config information is already in the public domain , and has been for some time .
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  25. roger_m

    roger_m Registered Member

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    A few years ago I purchased an Android phone directly from the manufactuer, and it came with no IMEI numbers (it was dual SIM phone), so I had to root the phone and do it myself. If I recall correctly, I just made the first IMEI number one digit higher than the second IMEI number on my previous phone, and the second IMEI number one digit higher again.
     
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