I'm an advanced windows user. Should I still use a firewall and AV?

Discussion in 'other security issues & news' started by Pain of Salvation, May 12, 2006.

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  1. Pain of Salvation

    Pain of Salvation Registered Member

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    I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Some people say advanced users do not need antivirus and firewall. Is it true? I don't use Internet Explorer.
     
  2. WSFuser

    WSFuser Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    well an advanced user could be different from a safe surfer. either way, i think u should stay with an AV and FW.

    if u have a router/firewall maybe u could ditch ur FW, but ur security setup rele depends on what ur comfortable with.
     
  3. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Unfortunately, there are also advanced bad guys ...
     
  4. rdsu

    rdsu Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    How do you stop that someone enter on your system if you don't have a firewall to stop them?

    If you only navigate on the white side of the web, you can avoid AV, but it's a potential risk that you will have...
     
  5. Lamehand

    Lamehand Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    There are no 'advanced' users only people who can and will make mistakes.
    Knowing how to push all the buttons in windows is nice but it won't keep you safe from exploits, even if you would have a degree in computerscience, you'd still make mistakes.
    Use at least a firewall when you're not behind a NAT-router, without it the system is wide open.

    regards
    Lamehand
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2006
  6. Pain of Salvation

    Pain of Salvation Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Well, I p2p, I surf on crack sites... but ad-aware did not catch anything!
     
  7. Bubba

    Bubba Updates Team

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    The same could be said regarding almost any similar anti-spyware program in regards to simply surfing. What did you feel Adaware should have actually caught :doubt:
     
  8. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    I wonder how you know for sure that your computer isn't infected after surfing on crack sites?
    Because Ad-Aware didn't find anything? I wouldn't even sure about that after running 10 scanners.

    Why do you need to visit crack sites anyway? To find cracks for downloaded legitimate softwares in order not to have to buy them? That's theft, don't you know that? You need education, stick around.
     
  9. Lamehand

    Lamehand Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Could be part of a botnet already, could be a menace to other net users without even knowing it.
    Crack-sites are not the places to visit for an advanced user, advanced users take their responsabillity and act accordingly.
    That is why advanced users implement a layered defense on their system, that means; the use of more then one anti-spyware application, a good firewall, possibly an anti-trojan app. and ofcourse antivirus software.
    Next to this basic things one could invest in HIPS or IDS software.
    The best thing one can do is to practice safe hex, that means not going to bad sites, not downloading all kinds of crap, in general use common sense, it's about 90% of your protection.

    Lamehand
     
  10. TNT

    TNT Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Makes me wonder why a supposedly 'advanced' Windows user would even need to be taught about the serious lack of "native" protection in Windows and the 'bad' nature of most "crackz" sites. :rolleyes:
     
  11. WSFuser

    WSFuser Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    so if i visit crack sites and use a layered defense, what would that make me?

    anyways i think being educated is a very good way of not getting infected even if u practice dangerous hex (p2p, pr0n, etc).
     
  12. Lamehand

    Lamehand Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    WSFuser, to answer your question, i think you would be someone visiting a crack- site, what makes the difference is what you want to do there.
    I didn't mean to say that one should load up on security applications just to be able to use crack-sites in a safe manner.

    regards
    Lamehand
     
  13. WSFuser

    WSFuser Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    so it wouldnt make me any less of an advanced user, nah? (dont respond)
     
  14. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Hello,
    First, to answer the question:
    Firewall is a nice thing to have, if you like to know what traffic goes on about your computers. You can manage without it - provided you know what to do - but as you say you're advanced, so you probably know how to handle things.
    Anti-virus can be nice, but most people make a mistake with AV - they think it's supposed to protect them from bad people. No no no! AV protects against good people. If you download a file from a cracks site and run it on your pc, you can never be 100% sure you did not make a small mistake on the way. And if there's doubt, there's no doubt. As simple as that. If you 'feel' the file might be unsafe - don't run it!
    Then come your friends. You get a file from a friend, a trusted source. This one you want to check with your AV. Many people disregard threats from trusted sources, because they trust the sources. If you get an executable from your friend, make sure your friend has not made a mistake.
    If you have money and time, set a spare machine that will be used as a scapegoat for testing. For installations, virus checks etc.
    Second, about crack sites and dangers pertaining to crack sites.
    Just because someone visited a site does not mean he / she is infected instantly. Crack sites might contain bad stuff, but they are not evil things that just wait to eat your computer. They are just another series of sites where you can find bad things, alongside chats, porn sites - or just plain sites you might trust. Hey, people who bought music disks from Sony did not expect to get infected, did they?
    On the contrary, when you visit the crack sites, you're alert. Trouble comes from supposedly benign and trusted sites.
    Now, as to the danger, browsing in a non-IE browser with plugins turned off, there's no exploit that can break through. None whatsoever.
    As to the morality of this - well, why should not one visit these sites? How are they different from other sites? If I visit a cracks site, does that mean I use pirated software? No. On the contrary! If I visit a porn site, does that make me a perv ... yes ... :)
    Anyhow, back on topic, firewall is nice, in my opinion, AV can be fine if you like to be in control (supposedly). But if you want to be in control even more, then you should definitely explore the more advanced fields of the Windows, which are restriction policies and whatnot.
    Mrk
     
  15. Rmus

    Rmus Exploit Analyst

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    I'm not sure what you mean by an "advanced" user. For me, there should be only one type of user: one who is taught, and subsequently utilizes, safe computing habits. This user understands how a computer becomes infected, and how to prevent that from happening.

    Assuming this is what you mean, I would answer, no, with some qualifications.

    Firewall

    Using Win98? Not necessary. I never used one, and I still take care of three systems running Win98 w/o one. It's easy to close the ports. No one ever had any qualms about closed ports until someone came along and decided it is necessary to run Stealth.

    Now, with Win2000/XP, it's a bit trickier because of Services, but it can be done, as I and others proved back when BBC produced that clip showing how quickly a system could be infected running w/o a firewall. That was the silliest, most misleading demo I've ever seen. Who would connect a computer to the internet right out of the box?

    But for the typical home user I encounter, it's safer and less bothersome to use a firewall. So for my Win2k friends, we install one, and for those with WinXP, we activate the built-in firewall.

    AV

    Not necessary if you understand how a computer gets infected. AV just isn't reliable, as many of the recent malware exploits have proven. There are other ways to prevent the unexpected/inadvertant mishap.

    Oops, now we're in different territory.

    Crack sites? That doesn't fit the description of the typical users I encounter, so I have no advice here. One is usually left to flounder helplessly in those waters, never knowing what lies around the next rock, wondering why AV/Adware doesn't catch anything, never knowing if something maybe got through.

    It may be that the best solution is for you to decide for yourself, based on your perception of threats to your system and what you think will best protect you.

    Good success in your endeavors!


    __________________________________________________________________
    "Talking About Security Can Lead To Anxiety, Panic, And Dread...
    Or Cool Assessments, Common Sense And Practical Planning..."
    --Bruce Schneier​
     
  16. dylanfan

    dylanfan Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Nice point ;)
    Actually, a lot of people do, I'm afraid...
    Sigh of relief :)
    Not completely reliable, or not able to deal with any type of difficulty, at least. Still useful in many (quite a few thousands, in fact) cases.
     
  17. Lamehand

    Lamehand Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    WSF, to not answer your question, i used the word 'advanced' a lot on purpose
    in a ironic way. :)

    There is an other way to secure a computer and that is to install a linux-distro, it's very effective right 'out of the box' without any extra security software.But if you think that is not enough you can always install extra security software.
    (I know, i know; 'steep learning curve' and 'not easy to use' and all that stuff, but for me it does the trick.) :)

    regards
    Lamehand
     
  18. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    I still don't know what an advanced user is.
    Can I call myself an advanced user or do I have to wait a few more years longer to get this promotion at Wilders ?

    At work, we like to give people impressive titles. It's cheaper than a pay rise and they feel themselves more important in the company.
    If I can add the word "advanced" to my actual title, people will have more respect for me. :rolleyes: :D
     
  19. washington2004

    washington2004 Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    I don´t think i´m an advanced user. I don´t even know programming. Anyway,consider this:

    1.I don´t open suspicious files from links like(social engineering): "hey,see my pics below
    www. anything.scr or
    www. anything.pif or
    www. anything.bat
    .... ..... ... .vbs
    ... . ..... .com or
    cpl, exe, hta, vbe,vbs...

    Ok,it could be masquerade,but it´s simple. I pass my mouse over the link and i see the real content. Firefox is able to avoid automatic download.

    2. Yeah,i do use Outlook express. Nowadays there is no bad scripts inside html emails. Besides,I use the preview pane. The 'boom' is social engineering and i know distinguish a pif from a jpg.

    3. My SO is configured to show the file extension. That lamers can´t trick me w/ foolishs like "filename.jpg.exe"

    4. I don´t accept files from msn messenger buddies( a closer friend,ok. He/she can send me an mp3 or jpg).

    5. I search cracks using Firefox or Opera. Download them and send it to kaspersky online file scanner. If the result is ok,I run the crack.

    6. I know a program called Petite. It seems a crap,since i don´t see any jpg infected(yahoo mail scans every picture when i have webmail access in my college and I never saw any alert).

    7. I scan my PC w/ Kaspersky online scanner and the results are just like "you´re clean".

    8. I´m a home user w/ dsl connected 12-18h/day. Nobody has physical access to my computer.

    9. I keep my pc updated(windows update) and all my programs.

    10. I use Dc++,kazaa lite,torrent programs,etc.


    11. I have a Windows CD w/ all patches. Windows xp SP2 included.

    Then,I don´t think I need any firewall or anti virus. Serious. Am I wrong? Where are the proofs?

    The problem is the ppl think they are free to click on any link,open any file...
    They must to know that like the highway rules,there are internet rules too.
     
  20. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Just to shoot a very big hole in your security without AV/FW. have you ever heard of drive by downloads?? with out av or fw you would never know it was happening and once it does happen it could be relativly harmless but that is not likely to be the case. it is your computer,if you don't care about it or care about the probability of spreading malware to everyone you email or im then go ahead run through the mine field blind folded. When your comp get so full of malware and won't boot anymore and it will get infected you might wish you went the other way concerning security.

    bigc

    P.S.
    just remember that you don't have to go looking for malware it will come looking for you. And with out something to stop it, it will just invite itself right on in. And with out the security apps you won't even know it is there until it is to late.
     
  21. dylanfan

    dylanfan Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    Sorry, but what you're really telling us is that you DO use antivirus's quite often , it's just that it's not located on your own machine but rather on an external server. That does not change anything.
    I agree with that...
    Right, but what scares me is that you seem to wholeheartedly believe you do know all the rules... which are constantly evolving on the web anyway.

    As I highlighted just above when talking about AV, one can be pretty sure about whatever, and still not be correct.

    Cheers
     
  22. washington2004

    washington2004 Registered Member

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    "When your comp get so full of malware and won't boot anymore and it will get infected you might wish you went the other way concerning security."

    How come? Sorry,that´s funny. I don´t use anti virus since 2003 and never used firewall.
     
  23. dylanfan

    dylanfan Registered Member

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    Without Firewall, one could be infected and not even know it, since no monitoring of outgoing connections is performed, nor hasch sizes verifications, and so on.

    Perhaps you're a zombie who doesn't even know he's one, hhmmm!? ;)
     
  24. dylanfan

    dylanfan Registered Member

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    Re: I'm an advanced windows user. Shoud I still use a firewall and AV?

    If you're on XP SP2, then I bet you did not stop the default-enabled inbound firewall, right? In which case, once again, you do run a firewall on your system.
     
  25. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Hello,
    Dylan, things don't work that way.
    First, a knowledgeable user will know when he's infected, without having to do 10 scans with various softwares.
    Second, without firewall, you can be pretty ok. BTW, did you know that while you use programs to communicate across the internet, you open ports? For instance, right now port 80 is open. And if you use torrent or something, for instance port 10554 is open. Does that mean the evil ones are crawling through? No. They need something on the local machine to respond to their calls - a service or something. This service needs to be exploitable. Otherwise, it won't respond to the evil calls of seduction across the internet.
    If you have fully patched software, and you know what to do, the services will not be invoked and exploits will not be successfully executed.
    Mrk
     
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