I do not think all has been said regarding TDS-3

Discussion in 'Trojan Defence Suite' started by Denny, Jul 25, 2005.

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  1. Annoyed

    Annoyed Guest

    Someone wrote: "got home, made myself comfortable and I see this is still going on...
    wtf...
    let's see forward and then make any conclusions..."

    Just what does "WTF" mean?? ... Yea, it's still going on. I don't have all this wonderful history with this guy and his company that others here do. I'm a recent purchaser and I've been looking at these boards for a month or so now. Quite frankly, I find the nonchalant dismissal of any hint of an idea that maybe things weren't done in quite the right way as outrageous. This Wayne guy's reaction after the weekend still shocks me. To just walk away like that. The whole attitude like nothing's amiss. And the clever debating-like tactics - he can't provide a future discount because he already promised TDS4 and that didn't work out, etc.. This is just too much.

    One conclusion can already be made - Mr DiamondCS has been arrogant and unaccomodating up to this point. I expected once he came back from the weekend there would be some give. Not this stonewall arrogance. There's not even a hint of apology in his tone.

    One example of his bizarre reactions: " ... some of you are so far off the mark as well, ie. claiming that we've been bought out by a third party? That is an unsubstantiated claim that you've just thought up out of nowhere, it is completely wrong, and you're misleading every other fellow member of this forum by making such claims." The people indulging in that speculation were on HIS SIDE trying to account for his strange actions. Good grief.
     
  2. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    You don't want to know. :doubt:

    Acadia
     
  3. Rmus

    Rmus Exploit Analyst

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    It's an abbreviation for a vulgar phrase, used by people with limited vocabulary
    and little other means of expressing themselves.

    -rich
    ________________
    ~~Be ALERT!!! ~~
     
  4. StevieO

    StevieO Guest

    I have noticed how intense the Malware in All it's different guises has become over the last 12 - 6 months.

    I note what Kevin from BOClean has stated, along with Wayne about the major increase and headaches poised by this situation.

    Whatever people think of Wayne/DCS there can be NO denying what a burden this must have been for him, and continues to be for the other AT vendors.

    I don't no how many people work for a2, but they seem to putting out a lot of Updates lately, including in the last hour with 499 sigs ! Makes me wonder just how they manage to stay on the ball. And let's not forget they provide a2 in a Freeware flavour too, which i gratefully use.


    StevieO
     
  5. EWT

    EWT Registered Member

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    I tried to send this as a PM, but his box is full

    Wayne,

    Read all of this, don't just label it as I-rate customer and dismiss it.

    No doubt you thought of all the possible reactions of your customers after your TDS news was to be released last Friday. And you brobably weighed out many possibilities of what course to take in trying to do right and keep customers. Some of your ideas were perhaps better for your customers, and some ideas better for you. I guess the most shocking thing is how your customers perceive you at this point. It seems to me that your logic may have gone something like this:

    1. If DCS just gives our TDS customers the new up-coming product, there will be no profit and no hope of proffiting from the TDS customers with the new release.

    2. If DCS doesn't give them the new product, many (maybe most) will be disgruntled customers and choose not to do business with DCS again.

    Either way, DCS is not going to profit optimaly from past TDS customers on a give-away or a turn-away solution (and forget the PG/PE offer; you now know that is practically an insult to 90% of TDS owners).

    So now, what I am going to suggest is certainly not going to please everyone, but for some people, nothing you do will. Why not put on your marketing cap and turn this into a win-win situation?

    Do you want to retain as many of your TDS customers as possible? Go half way with them. Offer them two licensed copies of the new up-coming product for the price of one! Tell them if they want, they can either give or sell the second copy to a friend, a family member or business associate in order to re-coop the purchase price. Or they can install the second copy on that 2nd computer we all have or on the laptop. In the mean time, you keep more of your TDS customers (that you are now losing fast), you will gain new customers, and you will stand to profit a lot more than the current way you are handling things (I can promise you I am not going to buy any more DCS products simply based on the agreement you breeched)! But if the agreement is met in some other way, like a 2-for-1, maybe I and others will view it as an attempt on your part to go the extra mile to keep your customers happy.

    Like I said, its not going to please everyone, but its better for both you and us than what you are currently offering.

    Emery Tuttle
    Licesned owner TDS, PE, PG & WG since Feb '05
     
  6. worldcitizen

    worldcitizen Registered Member

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    My understanding is that Wayne was more or less saying that there will be enough scanners around that can do an equally good job as TDS 3 did so there's no point in continuing to waste resources on it when bigger companies can do that. I think there'll be a need for scanners for some time to come because if we get infected we need some removal tools with scanners. Nobody wants to reformat their hard drive.

    However,with so many companies able to handle trojans now very well TDS 3 is no longer needed and DCS can release next generation software to 'keep it ahead' of the rest like it has always been. If you notice, DCS is always a step ahead of the rest in security, but the rest has caught up with DCS with regards to TDS 3 so they are dropping TDS 3 and will probably release something to make all security companies envious. Just when they think DCS has gone away they might find that the new software puts DCS in the front again and the rest have to play catch-up.

    Dave
     
  7. Defenestration

    Defenestration Registered Member

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    Re: I tried to send this as a PM, but his box is full

    Since there will apprently be more than one product emerging from the TDS-4 technology, another solution would be to give a free licence for one of the new products. This would go someway to improving peoples opinion of DCS, and if the other products are as good as DCS say they are, many people will probably also purchase them as well.
     
  8. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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  9. Andreas1

    Andreas1 Security Expert

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    Re-reading the thread I noticed that my previous post probably sounded more negative than I feel. I was trying to be as objective as possible and list what I perceive as good and bad aspects of the things that have happened and of the way in which they happened.

    (I wasn't saying DCS should make TDS OSS, but if they chose to, I would certainly find it a nice move, that's all.
    Also, I wasn't saying that a prior announcement is what most other companies usually do, nor that it is what was in any form required by DCS. I was just expressing my feeling that *if* there had been such an announcement, that *would have* been a better way to communicate this -- otherwise agreed-on -- decision.)



    But now here's what I've completely forgotten to account for:

    I have always experienced Wayne, Gavin and Jason when he was with DCS (and now as well, to be clear on that point) as people who almost always go such extra mile!
    I do appreciate very much all the talk I've had with them and with the other people supporting their software on this forum and at other places. I honestly don't know any other developers that are so responsive and help users to learn a lot for themselves -- not only about the actual software in question, but also about more general aspects of (safe) computing or programming.

    Thus, other issues aside, I don't have the slightest doubt in Wayne's commitment to his customers. I very much doubt that DCS's presence in the forum in the last time has come down to shouting/closing down tds4 inquirers, as one of the previous posters somewhere would have it, but even if it did, in order for that to be caused by something else than the desire to be able to present a real excellent piece of software to his customers, it would have to go along with a radical change in character, as I've come to know Wayne and Gavin.

    So you might say that's just hyping "that Wayne guy" and you have come to have another impression. Then that's okay, I cannot do much about it, nor do I want to. I just want to express my continuing confidence in DCS, inspite of anything possibly handled better than it actually was, and that this confidence is based not only on the excellence of their software, but also on a (my, that is) long history of dialogue, support and cooperation of sorts.


    Wayne and DCS - Keep it up!
     
  10. Starrob

    Starrob Registered Member

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    I do listen to what you say Andreas1 when it comes to the technical aspects of the software.

    When it comes to DCS, though, I want to see less "hype" and more action. TDS-4 was a program that was over-hyped for years and as far as I am concerned that is the root cause of all these threads with all these complaints.

    So, less "I am going to come out with greatest software to ever hit the market" and more action. There are some competitors as far as I am concerned that putting out lots of action and very little talk.

    There is one that even has a online AT scanner now (and they said it couldn't be done) I want to see hard, concrete ACTION. Products in reality not in vapor....then we can talk about actual things instead of theoretical. We can talk about how much the product helps my security instead of how much we Love/Hate the developers.



    Starrob
     
  11. worldcitizen

    worldcitizen Registered Member

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    I think a recent thread 'Is TDS 4 a Priority for You' or something like that was what got DCS really serious about discontinuing the program because so many users including myself had stated that they relied on their AV to intercept trojans and wondered how DCS were going to come up with something better and they couldn't because the AT market has trojans very well covered and that was the 1st topic in Wayne's list from the link above.

    I even only had TDS 3 as a backup but because Kaspersky was so good I was wondering what need I would really have for a TDS 4 as so many members admitted. This drove home to them that TDS 4 is simply not worth the time, money and trouble especially when there are other applications that can do as good if not better job. So being no need for it they discontinued it and rightfully which frees up time and resources to create other software.

    The only major issue was the 'free upgrade' promised and that is mainly what is the problem at present. For some, an extra license is no good so they will want to be compensated for somehow.

    Dave
     
  12. Starrob

    Starrob Registered Member

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    Right over-promise and under-deliver. Over-hype and under-deliver.

    I would prefer less hype, less promises and more actual software. I would prefer the under-promise and over-deliver. No hype....just putting out quality products with good DOCUMENTATION about the software saying what it can do and can't do.



    Starrob
     
  13. ---

    --- Guest

    I find it curious that Wayne supporters are trying to defend him by appealing to technical arguments that maintaining a signature based scanner is too expensive.

    That may or may not be so, but the reason people are pissed off is not because they dispute that trojan scanners are hard to maintain, but because of the following

    * False advertising - Lots of people bought TDS-3 because they were told that they would get a free upgrade to TDS-4. It was also stated on the website

    * Timing - Diamond CS continued to sell the product but to the day of the shock announcement. Also Discontinuing the product line is fine, but to do it with no warning at all? Shouldn't they have at least gave a warning say 3 months before? Or 1 month?

    Not everyone owns a dozen copies of Antitrojans like most people here. What about the people who rely only on TDS-3 ? They are suddenly left high and dry without any reliable protection at all.

    I find it hard to credit the "We care for our customer" lines, if Diamond CS can suddenly decide to give up immdediately without any advance warning.

    An employee that suddenly quits by not turning up for work one day, is a highly unrealiable one and should never be trusted again.

    Diamond CS, similarly is an unreliable company.

    * Compensation - As mentioned several times, the most loyal customers are the ones who gets screwed.

    As always there are people who will always support Wayne no matter what happens. These include the moderators, beta testers etc.

    But from the POV of a man in the street, the decisions they have made simply stink. It's not the decision to discontinue TDS-3 that was wrong, but the way they went about it.
     
  14. Atomas31

    Atomas31 Registered Member

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    Well, I read what was writting on the reference you give us and it still the same Bla! Bla! than before and you still doesn't understand what we are telling you!!!

    For your information, it is not the decision to discontinue TDS the problem but the way you handled the situation and the offer you presented to your customer, who for the majority already own PG and PE...

    I, in the same optic of what EWT have said, would prefer something like 50 or 60% discount on one of your new product than a second licence of PG or PE that will serve me for nothing... In wich langage must we tell you thato_O I can tell you in French, maybe you understand better Frencho_O

    Best regards,
    Atomas31
     
  15. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    Please note that we won't be responding to any posts made by anonymous posters as we've seen that feature of the forum abused far too often in the past by people simply wanting to cause trouble yet are too afraid to reveal their true identity as they know they're in the wrong by being immature and causing mischief. Also in regards to this comment:
    Nobody buys a program because of a free bonus offer for an as-yet-unreleased program, they buy the program for the program, so please tell us all what your motive is for these comments, and why are you ashamed of having your real identity known here?

    Atomas,
    Again, offering free/discount/etc licenses to products we haven't released yet is one of the things we have been criticised for in this thread. We've offered free updates and upgrades since the mid 90s, this is the first time we've ever been unable to complete an offer due to the discontinuation of a software line, but due to the criticism we've received here for being unable to offer a free upgrade to TDS4 we've decided not to offer free licenses to unreleased software, as we don't want upset customers in the unlikely event that the program is to be discontinued.

    Best regards,
    Wayne
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
  16. floatingPast

    floatingPast Guest

    on balance the replies have been more damaging than simple silence
     
  17. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    I rest my case about anonymous posters. Feel free to believe anything that any registered poster here has said whether it's negative or positive (we've already seen a lot of good passionate responses from both camps), but anonymous posters at forums often have alterior motives. History speaks for itself, but again it's entirely up to you what you make of their posts.
     
  18. kwesi

    kwesi Registered Member

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    Just to put my threepenn'orth in. I'm going to go out on a limb, and surmise that if, in all of the posts on this topic that there are on these noticeboards, there is still not even the slightest hint that DCS might try to sweeten this (evidently-bitter) pill by offering refunds, or discounts on new products yet, that perhaps that is to do with commercial realities.

    I can understand people's frustrations, but if at all possible, a little patience may well be in order here, as the various reasonable suggestions on this issue have no doubt been noted. I can definitely see how making a hostage to fortune by making some widespread commitment too early, could (literally) be suicide in business terms.
     
  19. Atomas31

    Atomas31 Registered Member

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    So, if I am understand you well you don't want to offer anything in regard of your next products and that, until those products are outhere, is that it?

    If so, then my question is : If and when your new products comes out, would you consider to offer free/discount/etc licenses to your new products and that to customer, like myself, who already have PG and PE and have no interest in having those software in double?

    Best regards,
    Atomas31
     
  20. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

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    Atomas, yes, when we release new products - but not before, then we'll make decisions in regards to licenses, but as people have been critical about our offering of free licenses to unreleased software, and as we do listen to them, we won't be doing that anymore as we don't want unhappy customers in the unlikely event that we're unable to release that program.

    We can't address that until the new product(s) are released, for the aforementioned reason.

    Best regards,
    Wayne
     
  21. Atomas31

    Atomas31 Registered Member

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    Thanks' for your answers Wayne,

    Now, when does your new products suppossed to come out? :)

    And please, don't answer me something like : "When it is gonna be ready" since, in this period of crisis, time is a luxury you don't have anymore...

    Best regards,
    Atomas31
     
  22. ---

    --- Guest

    Wayne, ad hominem attacks are simply uncalled for. I have reviewed the thread, and my remarks are mild compared to some of the attacks leveled by some other registered members.

    One might think you are simply attacking my guest status just to avoid answering.

    If nobody buys a program for a bonus offer, why advertise it? A contractual offer was made, and it was broken. Simple as that.

    As for motivation? I'm just stating my opinion same as everyone else. You don't have to answer.

    Hmm in the words of one of the **registered*** members time to sit back and eat my popcorn to watch the show...
     
  23. Starrob

    Starrob Registered Member

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    LOL.....except I am getting bored with this.....Right now I got CNBC on.....time to buy some stocks and make myself some money instead of worrying about how others are running their business.



    Starrob
     
  24. jmschwartz

    jmschwartz Guest

    Starrob . . .

    Any hot tips? I'm getting killed with LEG :D

    Regards,
     
  25. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Wayne said...
    "Nobody buys a program because of a free bonus offer for an as-yet-unreleased program...."


    I bought agnitum outpost when it was still beta to recieve the lifetime upgrade .I dint actually buy it for how good the programe was at that point but for what it might become.I guessed it would get better ,and it did ...agnitum is still honouring thier desision.Lots of people also fall into the advertising trap of supermarkets (including myself) " buy one..get one free".Usually the buyer doesnt really want the item but the offer of another one for free usually settles it.It seems to me that tds3 and the hype of tds4 and the free upgrade to it , is normal marketing hype for which you AND DIAMOND CS are probably well aware.
    ellison
     
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