I do not think all has been said regarding TDS-3

Discussion in 'Trojan Defence Suite' started by Denny, Jul 25, 2005.

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  1. Denny

    Denny Registered Member

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    I went to publish my comments just now, and see that Wayne has closed the thread, so I post my comments here:

    Wayne,

    This is Denny Church, and I own Almaco Computer Services, and have several licenses for your products and the action packs, most of which are for TDS-3 which your records can readily verify. I went to DCS' main site this morning to see why there have been no updates Friday, and this morning, and was redirected to this thread, and I have read every post in it.

    Firstly, I just want to get out in the public who I am, and what a long time user, and small computer company that has pushed your products for many years. I have pushed your products for quite some time and in fact, go back long enough in usage that I can remember when a reboot after install on an NT4 system would kill the box, and this can be verified in the private forums of DCS' website when doing a search of my name. You even offered me a free copy of TDS-4 when it came out for compensation for the time and money I lost on a number of early installs.

    Further, we recently exchanged E-mails; again, about how I could be paid for the sales of the licenses I have sold in the past and have never been received commissions on. In fact, when I sent my last response for clarification, you never responded. I let that slide because I figured you were busy, and so was I. And as I told you many times in the past, I was not putting up a website just to sell your products when I did not have the time nor staff to do so. I had already pushed your products and continued to do so because, in conjunction with NOD32, of which I am a reseller, I firmly thought I was doing the best for MY clients regarding protection of their systems and networks.

    However, I was really shocked to learn of your decision to cancel TDS-3 & 4 and that is why I have read every post in this thread. The more I have read, the angrier I have become, and after reading your response to Dallen, in particular the following quote:

    "Dallen, there was no contract, it is called a free offer - a bonus which we didn't have to make."

    Well sir, I beg to differ and refer you to the following WebArchive of TDS-3's site:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20030810032016/diamondcs.com.au/index.php?page=shop

    Now, the special Action Pack does explicitly offer free upgrades as part of the purchase, and I quote:

    Special - Action Pack

    TDS-3, Port Explorer, and WormGuard 3
    Free upgrades: TDS4, Wormguard4
    1 Home/Business/Educational License
    On special for just $99 (package value $190)

    That sir, is not a bonus, but part of the explicit purchase contract, whether it costs you money or not. In compensation, your offer license exchanges for PE/PG and for those of use that already have this, and you suggest we hand these out to friends, but quite frankly, this is not going to cut it, particularly in light of the fact that you have stated here that TDS-4 is to be used in a future product:

    "A lot of TDS4 technology will be released in our next program, although it won't of course have a database."

    As a client, I certainly am offended that you expect me to generate good will for your company, particularly after telling me that you are breaking your claim. Why should I continue to make money for DCS when I cannot trust what is now stated. It is not DCS that stands in front of my clients, nor is it DCS that stands in front of friends and says:

    “Here take this free software license from a company I cannot trust.”

    You have even went so far as to suggest that we charge them by splitting the fee:

    “On another note, in regards to the free PE/PG licenses we've offered, to those who already have PE and PG we're extending the offer so that you can have a free license generated for a friend (you may even choose to have them pay you half of your license cost). We obviously can't offer anything in regards to future software as that is one of the main things we've been criticised for in this thread, and we do listen!”

    Since this means that you must amend DCS’ license agreements, when will this be put publicly in writing so that we, the end users may have a copy? I for one do not wish to possibly perform something illegal, even at the software vendor’s insistence in a public forum, and want to make sure of this.

    Now, as a small businessman, this statement also shocked me:

    "If anybody would be emotionally hurt it should be me - I've paid for the ongoing maintenance since I created TDS in the mid-late 90s out of my own pocket in terms of money, and with my own time and resources in terms of development. It is now at the stage where it is costing me so much time and so much money that it is not worth it, especially when I could be using that time to develop software far more powerful and beneficial to the user."

    Well Wayne, if creating a product costs you time, money and effort to bring to market, and after all these years you did not know this, sorry to burst your bubble, but that is what happens- but you know this. What is galling, is to tell us (your clients) this- is just hogwash. You could have changed your terms a long time ago, for future purchases, and YOU chose not to.

    In this thread you tell us that you have not had more than a two-day vacation since 1997, but yet, I think back to Christmas 2004/New Years 2005 when ALL of the TDS-3 clients had to do without updates for how long?

    Wayne, quit trying to engender sympathy or pity, it seems obvious that TDS-4 free upgrades are going to cost you way to much, and this is your way of making sure it does not.

    You have done what you consider best for Wayne and DCS, but by cutting off all updates in this fashion, you have really burned some bridges, and I think Dallen and CrownKing82 are on the money- so much so that to see Dallen's Poll closed really smacks of fear. You may not have had a thing to do with closing it, but it benefits you and you only- not the people who have purchased TDS-3 and come to this forum for support.

    Denny Church
    ACS
    Texas
     
  2. Infinity

    Infinity Registered Member

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    Hi Denny,

    every day people have to make decisions, so what do you do..you cannot compare your firm with DCS...you don't know what's going on...

    you got to see things into perspective my friend...things are not lost...if you do remember like 6 months ago...you remember a topnotch product, enjoying every bit it has .. tds-3 was 6 months ago top tier product still....(subjective off course)


    you can see the potential of the other products..and I truely have a better processguard and wormguard then a better tds-3 ... future lies in that .. that you can sell to your customers.. that you can do .. I read your statement here and I truely think you can sell good :cool:

    sigs scanning is not the future anymore...thigs are more staticaly...like what you have on your firm, not comparable..


    Take care,

    Inf.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2005
  3. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    I feel very sorry for those that purchased tds3 recently too.If the company had gone into liquidation or some other similar catastrophe , then i think no one would quibble.However just to announce without any prewarning and indeed to actively mislead prospective buyers through this forum and the website ,of an upgrade to tds4 is either very naive or very calculating.As for stating that diamond ds has no legal obligations in honouring thier explicitlly stated free upgrade to tds4 , i just wonder how Wayne would feel if every buyer disregarded ds product eulas and distributed the products freely.It smacks of the same hypocrisy to me.I dont think Waynes desicion in discontinuing tds3 is the issue......its the timing and fashion thats the problem.
    ellison
     
  4. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Administrator

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    ellison64,

    As has been stated here:
    Rather than focus on what is gone, focus on moving forward. If the standard offer doesn't make it, see what options exist, but that is best done offline. However, I would assume everyone keeps market norms in mind and the simple fact of the matter is that a TDS type of product has a one-year life with renewal option as a market norm. That is a yardstick that I used for myself in assessing whether a refund/partial refund was in order or whether the license offer was sufficient - for me a 5-pack of PE was fine as a replacement for 5 TDS licenses, all greater than a year old.

    Blue
     
  5. Antarctica

    Antarctica Registered Member

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    Absolutly agree with you ellison. In december 2004 I was interesting about TDS-3 and I ask the question on the Forum if I was better To wait for TDS-4 or get TDS-3 right now. https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=58369
    In fact the only one who told me I should wait for TDS-4 was Dallen. Finally I decided to buy TDS-3 and of course I regret now because the "generous offer" from Wayne to get PG or PE licence for free doesn't apply to me since I already have both of them :mad:
     
  6. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Ive already read the the complete thread BlueZannetti.The offer by Wayne is (imo) very scant consolation for purchasers in the last month or two, considering many users either have the other programes or cant run them due to operating systems.Its a farce that the sticky in this forum which wayne proudly proclaims that tds4 will be here soon and will even work on 98 is still there.Dont get me wrong ive had tds3 for years ( only as a backup for the last year), so im not going to quibble over what ive recieved .However for new or recent purchasers , i think Waynes offer is rather contemptable ,especially when tds4 technology is (according to Wayne) being used in thier new projects.Im sure Wayne and the ds crew are very decent guys , however they could do with a customer realation crash course.
    ellison
     
  7. muf

    muf Registered Member

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    I'm sorry to see the way this has gone. I had high hopes for TDS4. Reading the whole of the 'TDS software line discontinued' thread and especially Wayne's comments, i have come to the conclusion that Wayne doesn't really care about what he has done to his TDS3 customers. His persistence at "not offering something for free that is not yet released" is just an excuse to avoid having to offer his TDS3 customers a copy of his rebadged TDS4 that is 'just around the corner'. Wayne probably realises that the majority of potential sales of his new product will be the people who already own TDS3, and if he has to give it away for free he will be left with a very small number of sales. This is all about revenue. Good will, decency, ethics - and more just flew out the window and i have to say that unless something is done to remedy this complete disregard for the TDS3 customers then my custom will definately not be used on DCS products. I have two, and that's how it will stay if things aren't put right. As they should be!!!

    You know how the statue feels when it's stuck there in the middle of a town square with hundreds of pigeon's. The TDS3 customers are the statue...

    muf
     
  8. Antarctica

    Antarctica Registered Member

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    That's exactly what I will do also unless I get satisfaction on my request to DCS, which is a refund or at least a partial refund of TDS-3. o_O

    Anyway in the mean time we can only wait and see how they will solve that out. I think it will be on the case by case. :cool:
     
  9. Denny

    Denny Registered Member

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    Infinity,

    You are correct, I do not know what is going on with DCS beyond the fact that up until Wayne pulled the plug, he was still selling TDS-3 with absolutely no notice. He could have warned customers three months ago, which would have allowed us to seek other solutions. This was not an over night decision upon his part, but he expects we customers to provide him understanding?

    Now, those of us who actually care for our customers are left scrambling to find something we are happy installing and does not conflict with installed software and work well. Never mind that this will cost us time and resources that are dollars out of our pocket, not Wayne's- ours. What of us, who are heavily involved with other projects right now? Not just we small computer firms who pushed his products, but the everyday user? Wayne’s actions have put us in a bind and he offers us PE/PG licenses as compensation, which is a slap in the face- nothing more.

    Infinity, the reason I am a good salesman is because the products I push are the best that I can find for the client for the dollar. Not all clients are large corporations; in fact most of my clients have small networks and are of limited resources. Moreover, before I sell them on any product, I must first be sold, and this is not a quick or easy task to accomplish.

    Process Guard is a pig- slow and encumbering and not suited for every system no matter what many would like to believe. I have tried to run it successfully on a number of systems and it has repeatedly brought the systems to a crawl. My main system is an AMD XP2500+ w/ a GB or RAM and it was like using molasses in the winter with it installed, and this was with most process stripped- no thank you. As to potential, yes, but due to the way Wayne has killed TDS-3, I honestly cannot suggest to my clients that they purchase and use his products now, can you?

    I appreciate the comments, good will, and your suggestions, but the future products I sell will not be DCS'.

    Best regards,

    Denny
     
  10. Atomas31

    Atomas31 Registered Member

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    Personnally, I understand Wayne not wanted to give away his new software since this is part of the reason of the reuse of TDS-4 technologies under a new name. But, I certainly don't understand why can he give some extra discount on his next software for those who already own PG, PE and WGo_O?? I think there is no excuse not to give extra discount, on the rebrand of the TDS-4 technologie, and by not doing so, Wayne, proof that he doesn't listen to his customers and doesn't understand the situation here...

    Atomas31
     
  11. David Schenk

    David Schenk Guest

    Excuse me,

    I really don't post on message boards much, but man, **what** are you talking about? ? ? ? Wayne has been clear in the closed thread that their upcoming software is *NOT* a "rebadged TDS4". I think the comment made about TDS4 technology refers more to some of the recent improvements to ProcessGuard, which I bought and do now love (it even blocks that obnoxious and intrusive InterActual Player that tries to script an install every time I insert a commercial DVD into my drive--both thanks and kudos, gentlemen).

    I understand that several customers are very frustrated with DCS's decision to discontinue their AT line, but for Heaven's sake, try to apply the principle of charity to their motivations just a *little* bit. Some of you waited more than a year to see TDS4 and now apparently you can't give them a week or two to see how they intend to remedy the losses you suffered from this?? Come on...

    Also, Wayne explicitly said in his initial post on the closed thread that customers who, for **ANY** reason were not satisfied with their conciliatory offer, could email them and negotiate another means of remedy, including refund options.

    Jeez, WHAT MORE DO YOU GUYS WANT?? I so don't get it...

    I almost bought the ActionPack myself a week ago and I *am* glad I didn't, but the response of some of the angrier posters on this board has me flabbergasted. Yeah, maybe it wasn't their best decision to tell people that TDS4 was right around the corner, but who here has never had that experience of honestly thinking they could do more than, in fact, time, resources and personal sanity permitted?? I've done it. Anyone here who has never let hope and optimism lead them to overestimate their ability to accomplish something??

    I don't think it's fair for us to go about verbally reaming these guys for making what was clearly a very difficult decision. I do think it's fair for those customers who do not want or have no use for a replacement license to negotiate a refund or other remedy by private email, but really that's it.

    After lurking here for years and seeing all the camaraderie and all the good work, I really am shocked by the reactions some people have made within a three-day time frame. It is genuinely uncivil and, in my opinion, inappropriate.

    Wayne, I'm going out on a limb here with a "bold conjecture," so tell me I'm half-cocked. My guess is that the DCS guys both felt really crummy already when they decided they couldn't maintain the TDS line, so insulting them and cooking up all sorts of evidentially unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about their motives will not be able to make them feel bad, since they *already* *do*. That's just my own personal guess from personal experience in such situations...

    So my plea at this point is just this: let us return to the civil and congenial tone that has been the norm here for some time and give DCS at least a week or two as they scramble to get new licenses and refunds and what-not out the door, respond to customer emails, polite and otherwise, and finish development on their new software.

    Let us at least give them a good faith *chance* to clean up some of this mess that they now find themselves in and give those unhappy customers at least partial satisfaction in all but the irrational cases (you know, someone who purchased TDS *years* ago and now wants to sue for "breach of contract" or some sanctimonious jive like that).

    The reaction I have seen over the weekend really does strike me as deeply unfair and hyper-judgmental. We can give them two measly weeks to straighten this out, can't we? No one's lives will be permanently damaged by doing that, I assume.

    I can't believe I actually wrote this and responded to people's comments, because I never do that, but there you have it. I personally think at least a touch of patience and charity toward them is in order.

    Sincerely,

    David Schenk
     
  12. richrf

    richrf Registered Member

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    The obviousness of this solution, leads me to only one conclusion - in some way DCS's hands are tied on this matter. Who knows what it could be. Unfortunately, the situation has left many, many people with a bad taste in their mouth, and DCS will have to deal with the long term repercussions.

    Rich
     
  13. Atomas31

    Atomas31 Registered Member

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    I also don't understand why they didn't give us any warning what was coming our way, that might have been more professionnal! Instead they simply drop a bomb on friday that everything (TDS) is over and that is effective starting at this moment and naturally they don't work on week endo_O?

    Atomas31
     
  14. David Schenk

    David Schenk Guest

    Hello,

    (Jeez, I'm writing *again*...)

    This seems very reasonable, actually, but there is one *mere possibility* that crossed my mind when reading your post. It may be that DCS *will* be willing to give such a discount, but that given the collapse of TDS4 after such a long wait, they don't want to publicly *make* that offer until they actually have the software product in hand and ready to go. I mean, if they make that offer before the software is finished and a bunch of people take the offer and then the software that seemed so promising during development just sort of explodes on them, they'll have a LOT more angry people then than they already have now. It's bad enough with one discontinued line that people have awaited; I doubt they really want to see *two*.

    Like I said, this is *merely* a possible explanation that is the product of circumstantially driven *conjecture*. The truth is it's just too early for us to really know what's going to happen at this point.

    Sincerely,

    David Schenk
     
  15. richrf

    richrf Registered Member

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    Yep, it was handled very poorly. It could be that DCS just bungled it - or it could be that there are "outside forces" that dictated the manner in which the whole thing unfolded. Whatever it is (was), I will remain as baffled as you are.

    Rich
     
  16. Infinity

    Infinity Registered Member

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    Me don't get this either honestly .. since when do we not give any chance to developers when they always have been proven to do right ...

    I purchased the action pack 1.5 year ago...me too purchased it hence the upgrade to tds-4 and whatever.

    And I know, and if everybody is at least slightly honest they'll recognize this, that DCS always been on the good side .. always I felt I could resolve my issues .. always had topnotch product. that will not change .. if it does: well, time to complain but not now .. things can happen, and sometimes you got to make decisions for rescuing your business too...

    that for me is something like: hell, ok..now it's my turn to do something ...

    at least for all the good times we had ;)
     
  17. David Schenk

    David Schenk Guest

    Hello again,

    Well, is it not possible that they kept telling themselves they'd find a way to maintain the product line and then on Thursday or Friday either or both of them had a bit of a breakdown and finally admitted they just couldn't keep doing all this work with only two guys? What I mean is, optimism can keep a person trying to accomplish to impossible right up until they finally collapse. Might this not be akin to what we are seeing here?

    Again, this is just more conjecture. I do not think it is wise for us to read between the lines too much at such an early stage.

    Sincerely,

    David Schenk
     
  18. beetlejuice69

    beetlejuice69 Registered Member

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    If what you`re saying is true, then they should have waited to make the announcement today, than have everyone steaming over the weekend with no one to be accountable. JMO
     
  19. David Schenk

    David Schenk Guest

    Hello,

    Sure, I suppose that would have been a bit more politic, and right now we just don't know why they made the announcement on Friday rather than Monday. Maybe it was only on Friday that they finally made the decision to discontinue and then, in a very blue mood, they announced the decision without even considering that a Monday announcement would have been a little bit tidier. Maybe once the decision was made they figured they had better just bite the bullet and let people know right away, lest people begin to question their timing. Maybe they just wanted to get the information out so they wouldn't spend the weekend obsessing about how to word the announcement. Maybe they have deep and wildly esoteric religious convictions that prohibit them from making Monday announcements. It's still all conjecture at this point.

    Anyway, I really don't see where the difference of waiting two days or so to get more information on a single piece of software merits the kind of reactions I saw over the weekend.

    Sincerely,

    David Schenk (who really ought to stop procrastinating his *own* work at this point...)
     
  20. Smokey

    Smokey Registered Member

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    Theoretical is that correct.

    But practical it can turn into an disaster.

    The negative aspects of the DiamondCS decision could overrule the positive very easy.

    Only the long term will bring lightness in the the darkness, at this very moment it is probably a win-situation for DCS (I assume), but will it stay that way?

    I have my heavy doubts.
     
  21. beetlejuice69

    beetlejuice69 Registered Member

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    Wow Dave that`s some pile of maybe`s but you MAY BE right. :rolleyes:
     
  22. Infinity

    Infinity Registered Member

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    I'll see what future brings and I won't leave my sleep, I do feel this is a sad case .. but hey ..

    last thing I've said about this all .. :D
     
  23. David Schenk

    David Schenk Guest

    Hi Infinity,

    Amen, man. DCS clearly has been working very hard to try to secure our computers for us over the years.

    Doesn't our collective ire belong with the people who try to hack into our computers, turn them into spam zombies and/or put keyloggers on them, and of course the darling angels at Yahoo and other advertising-based outfits who try to put all sorts of persistent tracking cookies on our machines so they can scream at us to buy junk that we do not want? Why yell at the good guys for, unless I miss my guess, ultimately just committing the sin of trying too hard??

    Alright, now I really am going to stop procrastinating and turn to my own work.

    Peace,

    David Schenk
     
  24. --ntl--

    --ntl-- Guest

    Why not making TDS-3 freeware?

    I do not want to say too much about the DCS announcement. Unfortunately, Wayne fails to see WHY he is (partially) wrong and some of the others are (partially) right.

    What I would like to propose is the following:

    1.
    Because TDS-3 is not sold anymore it should be considered to release the program under a freeware license. This would be in line with DCS's claim "We don't sell many programs - Most of our software is free". Moreover, future sales of DCS would not be affected by such step because DCS does not plan to sell any signature-based scanners in the future.

    2.
    In order to make TDS-3 freeware it would be required that DCS also makes available the editor which is used to add new signatures to the database. Again, I can't see any negative impact on DCS's future sales which might result from such step. TDS-3 has a huge crowd of supporters. Some of them may be prepared to read a tutorial on how to pick signatures and add new malware to the database. It's not that difficult to collect malware and create signatures if you are prepared to spend some time in order to educate yourself. In particular, this applies if a scanner (like TDS) does not rely on the use of code-based signatures.

    I acknowledge that TDS-3 is a little bit outdated. However, it's still a fairly good scanner and, consequently, it might be worth to continue this program as freeware (at least for a certain period of time).

    If this does not work out for whatever reason...nothing will be lost.
     
  25. jp morgan

    jp morgan Guest

    Anyone who can see this whole thing objectively would see that DCS screwed up big time, and are going to lose many customers over this whole thing. If they were just more honest in their actions to begin with, then you wouldn't have all these angry folks.

    DCS should have notified all customers way ahead of time before pulling this stunt. It's what any professional business would have done, and those companies that don't are simply saying "We don't care about you" and it is VERY unprofessional behavior to act this way. Really it's more like something some kids in a third rate home based operation would pull, not professionals.

    I would like to see a public apology to all TDS-3 users, from DCS, for their mishandling of this whole situation, and then offer a free license of this new so-called super secret software to all current licensed TDS-3 users.

    It's really the only thing that will earn back my trust and respect for the DCS team after this hugh mess that DCS caused to begin with. I would think it would also go a long way to showing that they are trying to make amends for this very unprofessional disaster.

    Show some class, honesty and professionalism DCS, and apologize for your obvious screw up here, and rectify your mistakes by offering the free program to all current TDS-3 users.

    JPM
     
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