How many snapshots should I maintain?

Discussion in 'FirstDefense-ISR Forum' started by flinchlock, May 3, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    Quote from http://www.leapfrogsoftware.com/support_info/faq/
    I really do not understand the 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence (I added the red color).

    I have my system exactly like I want it and I have a Ghost image of that partition.

    I then installed FD-ISR, and it made the 1st "Primary Snapshot".

    I then let the "Getting Started Wizard" create the 2nd "Secondary Snapshot".

    As of right now, my 1st and 2nd snapshots are "fresh".

    Let's say for example, I try 10 different music rip programs (doing a Copy/Update from 2nd snapshot into 1st snapshot each time).

    I determine I like/want to keep music program #7.

    I would then...
    1) Boot 2nd snapshot, do a Copy/Update into 1st snapshot
    2) Boot 1st snapshot, install music program #7
    3) Copy/Update into 2nd snapshot

    So, how does "Over time, installs, un-installs, temporary files, memory leaks, and the like, cause system performance degradation..." happen?

    Mike o_O
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
  2. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Posts:
    9,455
    I don't understand this either. I never had such a "fresh install" snapshot and I'm using FDISR since March 2006. :D
    The only thing that makes my on-line snapshot slower are my security softwares and I only defrag once a month, if I don't forget it.
    Besides, you can create such a "Fresh Install" snapshot at any time with the function "Empty Snapshot". I would ignore this. :)
     
  3. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,048
    I think you said the same thing twice.

    If you install a program in snapshot 1 and don't like it you would boot to snap 2 and do a copy/update from 2 back in to one.

    If you want to keep it then you would stay in one, and do a copy/update into two.

    Doing this from a fresh install you are right your system would stay clean. It's only with a lot of installs and uninstalls, that your system can get clogged down. Even that isn't insurmountable.
     
  4. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    Hmmm, not sure I said something twice? But, my question is what does the 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence at Leapfrog Software mean? I do not understand what they mean by fresh install, my original system was fresh before FDISR, and FDISR made the 2nd snapshot... the 1st and 2nd snapshots ARE fresh. If 2nd snap is fresh, and I update it with a new program, it would still be fresh.

    I (all FDISR users?) would always start from a fresh restore before they install a new program, and then sent that to the 2nd snap... right?

    Mike o_O
     
  5. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Posts:
    9,455
    Flinchlock,
    You have 2 snapshots :
    1. Primary snapshot = work snapshot for daily use
    2. Secondary snapshot = rollback snapshot, in case something goes wrong in your work snapshot.

    As long you do NOT like the music program in your work snapshot, you do this :
    1. You boot in your rollback snapshot.
    2. You copy/update from rollback snapshot to work snapshot. (this will remove the bad music program in your work snapshot)
    3. You reboot in your work snapshot (and try the next music program)

    If you find a music program, you do like, than you do this :
    1. You copy/update from work snapshot to rollback snapshot
    After that your good music program is installed in your rollback snapshot also.

    And forget about the red paragraph that doesn't make sense.
     
  6. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    Yes, I completely do understand that... that is what I tried to say when I started this post... you did a better job of that. :D

    THAT is my question! After reading lots-n-lots of your posts, I can see you have a basic need to understand stuff so you can maybe trust a program. I find it very strange you have told me, "Don't worry your pretty little head about it."

    So, I will just live the rest of my entire life not understanding that 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence. ;) :p

    Mike
     
  7. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Posts:
    1,000
    Location:
    UK
    I think the article is referring to something different than what everyone is looking at. Everyone is looking at the idea of temporarily installing software, deciding it doesn't work like you want and removing it, and as correctly deduced this will not clog or slow down your machine since such softwarre will only ever be on one snapshot, and will be removed by copy/update from the clean rollback.
    The paragraph I think refers to much longer term, over time most people install and uninstall software, not because it was no good or caused a problem but simply because they got bored with it, or it's not as good as it used to be, or a better option has come along, or it's just plain out of fashion. This type of software will have been liked once and as such will have been backed up to your rollback snaps, the article I think refers to keeping a very uncluttered snap, basic OS. updated, so you don't have to get the Windows disc out and go thru downloading all the patches again.
     
  8. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Posts:
    9,455
    I assume that the support of Raxco has alot of users, that don't use a history/registry cleaner, like newbies+++ and housewives with only one braincell for each cooking plate.
    If these users install/uninstall alot of programs without cleaning, their computer will become gradually a MESS and that is TRUE.
    That's why support recommends a snapshot that contains Windows and Applications after a re-install from scratch.
    Such a 3th snapshot can only be created during an re-installation from scratch (= fresh install).

    This paragraph is probably written, when archived snapshots didn't exist and that's why they talk about a 3th snapshot.
    So you better create an archived snapshot (copy/update from work snapshot to archive) and don't use that snapshot for archiving anymore, until you need it for a fresh install.

    I'm planning a fresh install of my computer and then I will create OFF-LINE such CLEAN archived snapshots for RESTORATION only and also CLEAN images with Image Backup.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
  9. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Posts:
    1,000
    Location:
    UK
    My situation is that I have come to this program witha 2 1/2 yr old computer, and although it is not bad I have had many a security app on and off again. I did come across something on the knowledge base about using an empty snapshot to do a clean install of the OS, this has appeal as the computer can still be in use as you sort out all the drivers and software for the new install, dunno how complicated it would be, but maybe I give it a try in a month or two
     
  10. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    Do you have a minimal XP off-line snapshot that you use only for Copy/Update?

    Or worded a different way, if you want your work and rollback snapshots to be 100% exactly the same, do you boot into a minimal XP off-line snapshot so you can Copy/Update from work to rollback?

    Since you are in the minimal off-line snapshot, you would be 100% sure the work and rollback snapshots are exactly the same, because:
    1) no open files
    2) no automatic program updates to maybe cause differences
    3) no network so bad guys can not sneak in

    Mike
     
  11. TonyW

    TonyW Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2005
    Posts:
    2,634
    Location:
    UK
    Last September I formatted my system and started afresh. After updating Windows and not installing anything else, I installed FD. The Primary Snapshot was created then I renamed that to Fresh Install. I copied this to what I called Primary (now known as Main). So, yes, you can have a fresh install snapshot to go back to if you do it like this.

    I currently have 4 snapshots - Fresh Install, Main, Rollback and Test. The Main snapshot has all my programs installed whilst the Fresh one doesn't.
     
  12. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Posts:
    4,048
    Location:
    SouthCentral PA
  13. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    So maybe, most users do not have a fresh install before they install FD-ISR? Maybe that is why that sentence seems strange to me since my system IS a fresh install.

    So, the fresh install would also be Copy/Updated with programs I decide to keep?

    Mike
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
  14. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Posts:
    9,455
    Thanks for explaining it again, I didn't understand "fresh install", because I called it "install from scratch" until now. I don't know so many expressions for the same thing in English, than I do in Dutch. At the end of the thread I knew what it was.

    Regarding the subject :
    Raxco's support seems to be a little out-of-date on this subject. I would never keep a fresh installed Windows in a 3th snapshot, I would keep it in an archived snapshot on my off-line external harddisk, which is a much safer place.
    What users really mean with "fresh" is another discussion, I call it "off-line". :)
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
  15. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,048
    Mike I sort of work this way. I copy/update directly from my primary to my primary archive. But I boot to a minimal secondary to go the other way. That is all I maintain.
     
  16. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Posts:
    9,455
    You asked, here is the answer in rough lines.
    I wrote this because I make a clear distinction between an off-line installation and an on-line installation. Most users don't do that, they install their computer while they are connected to the internet, because that is alot easier OR they enable internet after installing their firewall and antivirus.

    I do a "fresh install" off-line and as far as possible and then I create my CLEAN archives (FDISR) and CLEAN images (Image Backup)

    I don't have a work and rollback snapshot anymore, like beginners after installing FDISR. I have an off-line snapshot and an on-line snapshot. In other words I have : a computer without internet and a computer with internet which I both use during the day.

    1. My off-line snapshot is always trouble-free and malware-free and is my refuge snapshot, when something terrible happens in my on-line snapshot.
    I also need that off-line snapshot to work quietly without any disturbance, because I don't like to lose my concentration.

    2. My on-line snapshot is the trouble-maker and the most "dangerous" one, because it is connected to the internet and that snapshot needs a firewall and security softwares.
    During the off-line installation I was able to create a CLEAN on-line snapshot and this is my freeze storage for my frozen on-line snapshot.
    Each time I reboot, I replace my frozen on-line snapshot with my freeze storage. In other words all infections are GONE.

    All malwares have one WEAKNESS in common, no matter how sophisticated they are, they CHANGE my on-line snapshot.
    I use FDISR (frozen snapshot) to remove these changes during each reboot and that keeps my computer CLEAN and TROUBLE-FREE forever and it takes only 100 seconds (= reboot-time) to do this.
    That is my basic philosophy.

    I also have a CLEAN image to recover my system partition, in case FDISR is corrupted or when I have a harddisk crash.

    The irony of all this, is that my security is mainly based on a NON-security software, while my few security softwares are only required to stop the installation/execution of most malwares during the day.
    I don't need scanners to remove malware, because my frozen snapshot takes care of that 100% and without missing signatures and without false/positives and all that in 100 seconds, including history and registry cleaning.

    All my other 8 snapshots are for experiments, like trying new softwares, in case my frozen snapshot isn't enough. :)

    EDIT :
    I also separated my data files from my system files, because I have to keep my bookmarks, emails, etc., because my system partition is always the same and doesn't accept any change, unless I want this myself.

    The main difference between me and other users is : other users want to do whatever they want on the internet, so they depend completely on their security software to keep their computer clean.
    But all security softwares have one thing in common, they aren't foolproof and that's why users put their computer full with security software to get a LAYERED security. An army of AV/AS/AT/AK/AR-scanners, HIPS, etc.

    I want a 100% clean computer and this is only possible, if I refresh my computer completely with a malware-free snapshot during each reboot. Each time I have a little problem or a bigger problem or a disaster, I simply reboot and I'm back in business. I don't need to know what the cause of the problem is, I don't need to know how to fix it, FDISR takes care of this.
    I only need to know how to reboot and most users seem to know how to reboot their computer. :)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2007
  17. EASTER.2010

    EASTER.2010 Guest

    I have to interject right here a moment to thank once again Erik & Peter both for weighing in on this topic with such zest but most of all for their very good understanding they seem to have a knack of bringing to the surface even the smallest details that is a great help to noobs like me. When it comes to recoveryware i've always felt woefully limited :( , that was before FD-ISR was so boldly introduced. It's definitely propelled my encouragement & confidence well beyond my noob limitations in this department and i now feel like i can approach even imaging with a clearer outlook and definitely am experiencing much better results in practice.

    Thnx flinchlock for making this Topic, i know at least for me too that i get a firmer grip on these matters when reading Erik and Peter's posts regarding FD-ISR.

    (Pst! I'm thrilled to pink!)
     
  18. stapp

    stapp Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Posts:
    7,293
    Location:
    England
    Speaking as a housewife, newbie to FD, and awaiting support from Raxco, I now have a very low opinion of myself after reading this:'(
     
  19. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Posts:
    9,455
    Oops... well, I know jokes, that denegrate men too, if that comforts you. :)
     
  20. EASTER.2010

    EASTER.2010 Guest

    It's funny. Just when you think theres not really very much more that you can learn or accomplish with these machines, up comes some extraordinary program that totally knocks your socks off :cool:

    I currently maintain 8 snapshots and roughly 2 archives per snapshot but one of those for each snap in alternate locations. One person can't possibly attend all 8 of those but there are days i boot to evry one of them to ensure that i'm not dreaming..... Well, it's no fantasy i see, they are perfectly intact each and everytime for me with the one exception where i fudged up a snapshot's name with duplication or something unknown i done and for some reason one wouldn't boot. I calmly switched to another snap, Copy/Updated it's clean archive over it and returned it's functioning again, err rather, FD-ISR done that. ;)

    Something else: I normally steer clear from doing much Imaging as vital a safety factor as it is because of past bad experiences. Now since FD-ISR and exchanging dialogue in these discussions i proceeded to make an Image Copy today with pARAGON and everything went well. Now comes the task i fear most, restoring it, and i'm picking up another HD tomorrow to test it on. Gradually, i feel FD-ISR is weening me off from so heavy a compliment of security programs i always heaped together, plus is finally eliminating my abstract fear of Imaging. If all goes well i will have to invest in Shadow-Protect due to newfound excitement & confidence; 4 hours and some minutes to CREATE an image of roughly 50+GB. I don't even know if that average is acceptable or exceptionally long for that amount but i do believe one of SP's advantages is speed and i'm all for that, both image & restore. FD-ISR is spoiling me. :D
     
  21. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Posts:
    9,455
    In theory, you only need :
    1. an image of "Windows + FDISR", which will be very small in size.
    2. an up-to-date archive of each snapshot.

    In case of a disaster, you restore
    1. an image of "Windows + FDISR".
    2. each archive in a new snapshot one by one.
    And you are back in business.

    The question is : which one will take longer ?
    The above method OR restore a whole image with Windows + FDISR + all snapshots ?
     
  22. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    I also am very grateful of the extreme amount of patience they have answering the same questions over-and-over-and-over....... o_O

    Mike
     
  23. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    For what is is worth, I have used Ghost 2003 (since mid-2003), and I guessing I have restored (via Ghost) at least 100 times. I have also nuked my MBR many many times, and change partition sizes at least 50 times. And, change partitions from FAT to FAT32 to Linux to NTFS to .... and back.

    But, somehow I only lost most of my hair on my head... see my avatar.

    My plunge into FD-ISR is only to save me time... I have my system imaging down to a no brainer. I like the fact I try can some program, and thanks to FD-ISR, I can be back to square one in less than 2 minutes (Ghost takes about 30 minutes).

    Mike
     
  24. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    I also do as much as possible off-line. :D :D :D

    Erik, I really appreciate your candid answers/insight about how you manage your system. After reading many-many-many-many of your posts, I was coming to that conclusion about your off-line/on-line methods. I hope I was not being too much of pain... I was expecting you to put me on your forum block list. :eek:

    I do not find the FD-ISR program all the difficult. The difficult part is describing the many many ways to effectivily use the program options, and what good/bad effect they might have. But, thanks to you and Pete (and lots of others), it now seems rather simple.

    Thanks for being that little Dutch guy that saved the town from the bad guys/gals/creeps!

    Mike
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2007
  25. flinchlock

    flinchlock Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Posts:
    554
    Location:
    Michigan
    Actually, you can take any archive and restore it to any snapshot.

    So, all you need is your primary and secondary. :D

    You can take any archive and restore it to the secondary snapshot.

    That way, your image will not be mega-sized with 10 snapsnots, only two. :D

    Code:
    Actions > Copy/Update Snapshot
    "Copy/Update Wizard" <Next>
    Click on any "Archive of..." snapshot as the [b]Source[/b] <Next>
    Click on "Secondary Snapshot" as the [b]Destination[/b] <Next>
    <Copy>
    Reboot
    <F1>
    "Secondary Snapshot"
    My Way!

    Mike
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2007
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.