History question about old HIPS program

Discussion in 'other firewalls' started by act8192, Nov 29, 2015.

  1. moredhelfinland

    moredhelfinland Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Posts:
    347
    Location:
    Finland
    Hi,
    Most of the exploits are based on the browser based exploits or via email attachments. If you secure (restrict) any browser or an email clients attachments that automatically opens a restricted pdf viewer.
    Im not advertising Spyshelter Premium, but it is really powerfull HIPS. For example, you can make rules that on which folders are access to and block .js(teslacrypt) files for example easily.

    How ever, it is a the best HIPS for x64 so far.

    -moredhel
     
  2. Rasheed187

    Rasheed187 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Posts:
    17,559
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Yes I agree, for example Comodo annoyed the hell out of me, with dumb alerts about system apps. The problem is, in order to solve it, you end up white-listing way too much, at least according to my feeling. That's why I didn't like Comodo. But I'm not into auto allowing digitally signed apps.
     
  3. Rasheed187

    Rasheed187 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Posts:
    17,559
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    It's not perfect, but it's indeed the best HIPS for Win 64 bit systems, at the moment.

    It sounds like it's intrusion detection, so they don't actually block anything, they simply look for malicious modification inside the memory, no matter if the malware is delivered via some exploit or not. This is something that HIPS don't do. The approach that Trusteer Apex takes, is also interesting:

    http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/nl/trusteer-apex-adv-malware
     
  4. itman

    itman Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Posts:
    8,593
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Most HIPS's monitor Win API calls for those associated with memory modification. Most exploits use this method but there are other memory modification methods. It is questionable whether the HIPS would catch these other methods.
     
  5. moredhelfinland

    moredhelfinland Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Posts:
    347
    Location:
    Finland
    As i far know, ring 1-2-3 needs a driver(dll) installed on the system. And on a goverment side of things, one can think an backdoor for Agnitum products.
     
  6. Gullible Jones

    Gullible Jones Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Posts:
    1,466
    o_O

    Drivers are for ring 0, and are typically given the .sys extension on Windows. And I doubt that Agnitum itself is a backdoor (though there are probably certain things it won't detect).

    How many of them bother modifying a program's .text segment though? :confused:

    Edit:

    Yeah, what I'm saying here is that stack and heap space will already be modified (quite a lot) during the normal course of program execution. And those, not static code, are where most exploits work (e.g. the famous stack-smashing buffer overflow attack).

    I'd assume that the product in question looks for other things besides changes in the static code segment, otherwise it would basically be useless. But then I'm not sure how much usefulness the comparison with the stored executable image would add, anyway.

    And now you might be asking, "wait a minute, couldn't they figure out on the fly how the application will change in memory, just from the EXE image?" But unfortunately the answer is no, that cannot be done accurately, because it is a manifestation of the Halting Problem:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

    Attempts to derive the runtime nature of a program from its EXE image, without running it, are going to be limited to something like AV heuristics, i.e. an educated guess.

    One could maybe analyze the behavior of the program at runtime, in isolation, and thereby get a good idea of what the program's memory would normally look like; and kill it if it deviates from that model. A kind of inverted version of AV heuristics, I guess. But in that case you could get false positives (and false negatives!) from outlier behavior.

    Short version: I'm pretty sure that data sheet is full of marketing drivel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  7. moredhelfinland

    moredhelfinland Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Posts:
    347
    Location:
    Finland
    a .dll and and a .sys are runtimes as far i know. So if i make an notepad text with an MZ headear of if, like "mz test" and saving it as a txt, the famous av/what went crazy. Emsisoft style is, that it injects their own prosesses to all running prosesses, so it kinda behaves like a trojans do.
     
  8. guest

    guest Guest

    im using CFW, set on paranoid, then set training mode only for every legit apps i install, deleted the Trusted Vendor List, added only the vendors running on my system, set some vulnerable processes as "unrecognized" , whitelisted those i know.

    results: popups only if something want to install or if a process not yet whitelisted is starting. After a few days, i barely had more than 10 popups a day (and those are processes i didn't ran earlier.

    it is like teaching a young child to do or don't , longer the time pass, less monitoring you will need.
     
  9. Rasheed187

    Rasheed187 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Posts:
    17,559
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Of course it's also marketing, but I don't see why they wouldn't be able to spot malicious behavior in memory. It's not exactly the same but Trusteer Apex makes use of what they call Stateful Application Control:

    "By analyzing what he application is doing (operation) and why it is doing it (state), Trusteer Apex can automatically and accurately determine if an application action is legitimate or malicious."
     
  10. Cutting_Edgetech

    Cutting_Edgetech Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Posts:
    5,694
    Location:
    USA
    You could do the same with Online Armor. You could block writing to any folder, or any registry key.
     
  11. bellgamin

    bellgamin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Posts:
    8,102
    Location:
    Hawaii
    You can do the same with AppGuard I think.
     
  12. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    20,590
    Yes for guarded apps. Also with SecureFolder
     
  13. Solarlynx

    Solarlynx Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Posts:
    2,015
    I didn't go so far with Comodo deleting TVL. Good trick in training HIPS (not only Comodo's) is to restart in learning mode, of course you must be sure that your system is clean.
     
  14. Behold Eck

    Behold Eck Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Posts:
    574
    Location:
    The Outer Limits
    All a good reason to still have a couple of 32 bit systems knocking about the place.

    Regards Eck:)
     
  15. syrinx

    syrinx Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2014
    Posts:
    427
    Anything from a .dll, .exe, or .sys (among others) can be used as a kernel component, eg Ring 0. NVT's Kernel Mode Drivers Manger or LoadOrder by SysInternals are a decent way to see what's on your system.

    I'm tempted (oh so tempted) to argue on the Agnitum backdoor comment but seeing as the injected wl_hook dll method [while archaic and needing a new solution; no arguments there!] is basically just a 'user space' component which results in the original comment being nothing but amusing IMHO I'll try not to. I could be wrong, but it doesn't show up in either of the above mentioned programs. I'd certainly hate to be wrong and guilty of actually using that software if even if the wl hook was a kernel mode component (even if I'm wrong on that count that doesn't mean it has a backdoor) with a backdoor. (I do use Agnitum products and would hate to see proof that I'm wrong! ~ maybe not hate, guess I'd be happier to know but I'd feel betrayed and that would be a bad situation for them and me!)
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.