Forum Morals

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Jimbob1989, Dec 17, 2004.

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  1. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    I am not sure what the view is of the forum staff, however it would be interesting to know what the rules are and what the members views are.

    OK, here is what I want to know:

    If a guest or member arrives at Wilders and he has security issues due to an illegal act he has commited such as piracy, in mind that millions of people do so all the time. Should we help him/her with their problem or not?

    Jimbob
     
  2. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    Well - no offence intended - but our rules are very explicit; see our TOS. It might sound a bit harsh, but regardless the views from our members our staff will decide wether something is permitted or not in case the TOS isn't specific enough.

    regards.

    paul
     
  3. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    So we ignore the user untill a decission has been made by a member of the forum staff?

    Jimbob
     
  4. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    This is just one example from most probably many; in case we would (try to) put all possibilities in our TOS, prepare for a day's reading. Thus, the TOS is covering the most important issues that need to be addressed.

    For that reason I answered the first time the way I did; after this example another one is easily posted.

    As for your question: Our staff is monitoring this board as best as possible and will act and/or interfere when they feel there's reason for doing so. Apart from that, one can inform staff in case of doubts. Finally: we can't prevent anyone addressing a post, and have no intention to do so either. Staff will interfere if necessary, with or without a 'user alert'.

    regards.

    paul
     
  5. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    Thanks for clearing that up Paul.

    Jimbob
     
  6. Pieter_Arntz

    Pieter_Arntz Spyware Veteran

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    My rule of thumb:

    As long as no-one else will be able to repeat the illegal action from our posts, I will try to help cure the consequences, but only if that is legal.

    For example. If you are infected with spyware due to installing KaZaa, I will help remove the spyware along with KaZaa and tell you where you can find WinMX.
    I will not tell you where you can find KaZaaLite.

    No-one has ever told me I was doing it wrong, sofar.... ;)

    Regards,

    Pieter
     
  7. MikeBCda

    MikeBCda Registered Member

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    You've probably seen, both in the TOS and in the actions of admins and mods, that posting links to warez sites and similar places is a flat no-no.

    On the other hand, if you pick up what appears to be a previously unknown bug from such a site and the mod or admin feels indulgent and wants to try to help, he/she may invite you to send them the addy via PM (not in a posting here) so they can check it out themselves, often with tools and other resources, incuding lots of experience, that you might not have access to yourself.

    (Whew, that's gotta be a new record for a run-on sentence. :oops: )
     
  8. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    :ninja: I don't purposefully find loop holes in the rules... honest :ninja:

    Jimbob
     
  9. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    It's a completely black-and-white issue for me.

    If someone's needing help due to a problem with something that they've stolen - be it a program, a song, software or a movie, or from d/l'ing stuff to crack with, or anything from a warez site - then they certainly don't deserve help.

    Stealing is wrong - why reward it by helping someone out who's suffering the consequences of doing so?

    In my mind, it puts the helper's (and the website's) seal-of-approval on the theft.

    I can hear the "but they'll learn the error of their ways if we help them!" already. In a miniscule percentage of cases - perhaps.

    You did ask for member views, Jimbob. That's mine. Pete
     
  10. mercurie

    mercurie A Friendly Creature

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    I think Paul has addressed this well, but I would like to add this. TOS are the laws here that should be followed. Just take some time and review them from time to time to make sure you do not violate. In fact I am a little over due. The staff are the judges and their rulings should be final.

    Remember this too it is always the right thing to do if you find you have done something wrong to say, "I will never do that again."

    If you follow my signature it will keep you out of a lot of trouble friend. ;)
     
  11. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    Paul and spy1 have pretty well described my feelings on the subject, any more questions? check the TOS here


    bigc
     
  12. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    But I hope you can see how we could easily end up in a moral dilema. Millions of people break copyright laws all the time and in the process can cause themselves problems, through the methods they use

    Jimbob
     
  13. dog

    dog Guest

    LOL ... I noticed mIRC on your desktop JB ... are you just feeling things out in advance of something? :D

    Someone's Desktop :ninja:


    :ninja: *puppy* :ninja:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2004
  14. bigbuck

    bigbuck Registered Member

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    ;) ;) ;) ;)
     
  15. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    o_O What do you mean? feeling things out?

    Jimbob
     
  16. bigbuck

    bigbuck Registered Member

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    He means..."testing the waters" JB.
     
  17. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    Jimbob - There is no moral dilemma (although there is a lack of morals dilemma on the part of the person who's experiencing problems due to their illegal and/or immoral behavior) for un-involved parties.


    That's exactly the point, Jimbob. Whatever problem they've caused themselves by theft (using a cracked program or by d/l'ing copywritten material that contained some "extra's") are probably the only consequences they'll suffer for the theft to begin with.

    By helping them solve whatever problem they've caused themselves, you (or we, or the website itself) become party to and place a seal of approval on the theft itself - and that's not right.

    I've seen people come in here bragging and snickering about having a problem due to theft - and expecting help with it as a matter of course. It flat stuns me that they would automatically assume that we would share their twisted values.

    Excuses on their part don't cut it, either. No one's going to tell me that they don't know that the copy of the latest version of a software that they d/l'ed on a P2P network - or a copywritten song, movie or game (to avoid paying for it) is theft . It's a cop-out or a flat-out lie and an insult to anyone's intelligence. If they are actually stupid enough not to know, then they shouldn't be on the Internet to start with.

    The question is totally simple - do you (or we) want to help thieves to not suffer the consequences of their actions?

    I don't - and if you do, you might want to ponder upon what that tells you about yourself. Pete
     
  18. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    I think some people are somewhat diluded in thinking that Piracy is a small problem which very few people take part in. Do you think that everyone who gets illegal software or media off the internet realises the entire extent of their actions? I think not.

    Jimbob
     
  19. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    Regardless of how many people are doing it, it's still wrong (sheer numbers of people doing illegal things don't make doing illegal things right ).

    Whether or not "everyone who gets illegal software or media off the internet realises the entire extent of their actions?" is neither the point nor the excuse you're trying to make it out to be.

    Ignorance of the law has never been a justification for breaking the law - nor does it serve as a defense against being punished - at least not in this country.

    Un-intended consequences are (and should be ) solely the problem of the offender. No one else needs to feel sorry for, or attempt to help, them.

    Maybe if people got more aware of the possible "consequences" of their actions to start with and developed a set of solid values somewhere along the way, the Internet would be a much better place.

    Self-discipline would probably have gone a long way towards preventing the government from intrusively trying to become everyone's baby-sitter, too. Pete
     
  20. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    And Pete, would your response be the same if it was a relative or close friend who was asking you for help after commiting such crimes?

    Jimbob
     
  21. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    Of course. Pete
     
  22. Primrose

    Primrose Registered Member

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    You bet it would...and I stand the same ground on that as Pete...knowing full well that is how he also views the situation as it applies to his standards and how he rears his children.

    Different stroke for different folks..but you still can draw the line in your own life. To your ownself be true.
     
  23. AJohn

    AJohn Registered Member

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    I dont care, I will help them as long as they havent killed anybody, if my help is somehow not wanted mod can delete :D

    Besides, people can Always lie about why they need to know this/that, so mise well help them when they are honest...
     
  24. mercurie

    mercurie A Friendly Creature

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    Piracy: to plunder; to reproduce reguardless of copyright. Dictionary definition. Just a really short version of what I think Pete said. Come on fellow....Creature Jimbob I worry about you when you get like this. :rolleyes: :(
     
  25. Jimbob1989

    Jimbob1989 Registered Member

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    I think my view is pretty much like like AJohn's. In my mind piracy is something that eventually a lot of people are going to have to accept, unless certain changes are made, as many people take part in piracy on many different scales and levels.

    However, of course we can not be seen to be supporting piracy in anyway, which is a slight problem. I know when I mention the word piracy, lots of people imagine these people as thiefs, but we all know that is not true, just about anyone can take part in piracy, and a lot of people do.

    My view is this, if someone comes to me and tells me that they have a problem because of downloading a little ilegal music or software, I Will help them to fix their PC, however like many of you, I will not tell others where to get illegal music, software and so on. However, it seems no one who may think the same, would be able to do so in public.

    Jimbob
     
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