FIRSTDEFENSE.AND HDCLONE PRO

Discussion in 'FirstDefense-ISR Forum' started by theshadow247, Mar 5, 2007.

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  1. theshadow247

    theshadow247 Registered Member

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    has enyone used firstdefense with hdclone.and if so how do they work together ? i also have rollback rx installed on another box,i know rollback has problems with backup programs so iam just wondering.thanks..
     
  2. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    I hope you find a member who combines these softwares and tell you about it.
     
  3. starfish_001

    starfish_001 Registered Member

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    Not tried it but it should work - RB needs an image that is 1 for 1

    FD is a lot more tolerant
     
  4. theshadow247

    theshadow247 Registered Member

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    thanks for the replys.i agree with you that fd is alot more tolerant with backup programs.iam thinking of trying the new hdclone version 3.2.5 with mainly rollback because of the problem of catching all the images and not just the baseline or imge backed up from.i was and am hoping some has used the two before.with good results....
     
  5. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    You going to use this for back-up or are you about to move to new drive?
    You have probably seen this basic guide already:
    http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=418&page=1
    Use HDC as software of choice from page 2.

    At first glance there should be no problem HDClone makes an exact copy/clone.
    Works from boot floppy or CD
    This should include MBR.
    Just for safety you might want to turn off the FD pre-boot prior to cloning.

    The FD snapshots are a file system cf VM files and should just copy over.
    If you manipulate the partiton sizes when 'resetting' the 'new' drive you may need to reboot once or twice for FD to find itself.

    Let us know heh for the db. :)
     
  6. theshadow247

    theshadow247 Registered Member

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    iam just doing 1.1 backup.and hdclone and f.d works fine.i havn't tryed rollback rx yet.i new that hdclone and f.d would work its rollback that iam not to shure about....
     
  7. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    Cool.
    Sorry cant help there. There were as you are obviously aware "issues" with prior versions of RBRx and imaging. Something to do with their snapshot techniques.
    This may have changed. It nay have been related to MBR issues: cant really recall.

    Try asking wilbertnl: he has lots of experience with RB.
    The support at HDC was also good when I was testing it.

    :)
     
  8. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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  9. silver0066

    silver0066 Registered Member

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    I am using RollbackRx with First Defense and Acronis Workstation. It has worked just fine so far with one exception. When doing a Recovery Restore from the Acronis boot disk, everything restored okay but RollbackRx. I had to reinstall it and I lost my previous snapshots.

    Not really a big deal as I do almost daily Acronis Backups and FDISR Archives.
     
  10. theshadow247

    theshadow247 Registered Member

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    hi.ErikAlbert.ya thats the one.i tryed to backup with it and rollback but it didnt work i lost all but the image i backed up from..
     
  11. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Oops. Quite a disappointment then and it looked so good on the website, at least in words.
     
  12. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    Hi E-A
    HDClone is a good product
    (not sure where it might fit in with your set-up :) )

    HDC does what it says
    Imho the problem as it has often been, and please advise otherwise, is that RBRx does not fit well with other imaging solutions asa many posts attest.
    The newer versions of RBRx seem to work very well as stand alones, but there still seems to be some issues with other tools.

    Regards
     
  13. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Well I don't see it that way.

    Each Image Backup software is supposed to take an image of your harddisk, no matter what software is installed on your harddisk and put it back on your harddisk, the way it was, during the restoration.
    That is its basic job and if it can't do that job, there is something wrong with it.

    What has the contents of a harddisk to do with taking an image of it.
    An Image Backup software doesn't know what's on the harddisk, it's a collection of "0" and "1".
    It's like a camera, that doesn't make a picture of the family, because it only takes pictures of landscapes.
    Don't you see how absurd this is ?
     
  14. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    Sure '0's and '1's :D All software just works and works and works.....

    It's the way they run together those pesky binaries.

    Just do a search here for many many threads/posts re the proprietary 'hidden' sectors in the RB tools and imagers and cloners.

    There have been issues with virtually every imaging tool and RB.
    There are many posted workarounds.
    Something to do with how RB does sector mapping and yet does not mark the sectors as used...I think...:blink:

    There have been lots of posts about "cloning" vs "imaging" but no-one seems willing to run any such tools together with RB without great care.

    The latest interesting thread is combining RB and the new FD release which boots from the partition table rather than MBR as far as I can make out.
    this is interesting:
    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=165854&highlight=rollback acronis

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=958262&postcount=24
    Unless RB are some light years ahead in the way they create their snaps (and they could be!)then the issue is with every tool other than rollback....come on. :doubt:

    The only solution available to most imagers with RB is the "raw" copy option; sector by sector afaict and it does work: not really optimal imo.

    From my point of view there are many extremely reliable imaging and recovery tools: pick a flavour. Virtually all work with FDISR and can image VM file systems.

    The fox in the hen house is still RBRx: a great tool but still issues with defragging, HD recovery, and backing up images to lose either all snaps except primary RB snap or all snaps other than the one you are in.

    It appears there are moves with the latest release of RB to address HD recovery and full restores; the Horizon Datasys Clone tool seems to work.
    (no-one elses' really does afaics)
    The first post here:
    http://www.horizondatasys.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=76&PN=1

    The problem for me is that I really no longer care. They have had great support from many members here and have moved the product along.

    On a Laptop I believe it has significant advantages as opposed to FDISR.
    I just would have another image as well.

    If there really is a stable solution with a bootable CD option that will support external HDrives then it might be time to look again.
    As you say it's just software.

    ooo11ooo111oooo111111oo1oo111ooo ;)

    Just my humble 2c
    Thx.

    PS dont mistake any attempts at humour as de-emphasising how DEADLY SERIOUS a good back up strategy is. MUST. WORK. EVERY. TIME.
    I told you I recently had a HDrive just go phut and had to rebuild my work set-up. hanks to a good back-up it took just 3 hours for new HD and restore. We have all here collectively invested thousands of ours to develop very sophisticated tools and we have reaped the benefits.

    Regards.
     
  15. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    The heart of the problem with Rollback, and why I don't trust the concept is it doesn't store data with the windows files system. When it works it works great, but it creates the imaging problems, as well as other issues.

    I sure hope there new version solves them, but.... At this point, I'd have to sort of agree with Erik.
     
  16. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    In another thread, where Peter posted too, the Image Backup software of Paragon seems to have no problems with RollbackRx.

    If ATI doesn't do its backup on my computer due to a new software, that would be for me a valid reason to look for another Image Backup software and ShadowProtect will be next in line.

    ATI is doing fine until now. My only disappointment in ATI is that there is a big difference between backup time and restore time, but I'm not going to spend another $70 just for speed.
     
  17. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    Apologies to the shadow for drifting OT:
    Yes
    As long as you use the 'raw' option, Terabyte also has this option.

    @Eric, I might be missing something here (have pity on an old man), but are you saying that ATI will back-up/clone a disc RBRx with all snaps intact?
    Just by doing routine imaging/cloning with no special work-arounds?
    I think this may have been discussed previously but cant find it atm.

    @Pete I know you dont like RB as stated, are you aware of any imaging/cloning tools tools that work smoothly with RB?

    Regards
     
  18. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Hi Longboard

    THere's a huge thread that touches on that, but I don't know off hand, because again there may have been the need to do a raw image.

    Pete
     
  19. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    No, I didn't mention RBRx, when I was talking about ATI. Let me explain it more clearly.

    When a backup/restore isn't successfull, I always blame the Image Backup software, never the softwares that are installed on my harddisks. That is for me a basic rule and applies for all Image Backup softwares.
    Image Backup softwares are supposed to take images and restore them properly, regardless which softwares are installed on your harddisk, just like a camera takes pictures of everything.

    If an Image Backup software doesn't backup and/or restore properly, it means to me that there is something wrong with it.
    Normally, I contact the support and they have to fix it, if they don't I ditch the Image Backup software.

    So if I was a RBRx-user, I would expect that ATI would do the backup/restore properly.
    If not I would contact Acronis or look for another Image Backup software, but I wouldn't blame RBRx for my troubles with ATI.
    Unfortunately for you, I'm not a RBRx-user, so I can't tell you if ATI and RBRx go together for sure.
    I'm a FDISR-user and ATI has no problems whatsoever with FDISR. In the very beginning I had problems with ATI & FDISR, but those problems were caused by me because I didn't know ATI & FDISR very well.

    I'm trying to tell you not to blame RBRx or FDISR for your troubles with Image Backup softwares, look for an Image Backup software that backups/restores a harddisk properly, when RBRx or FDISR is installed.

    If HDClone doesn't work for RBRx or FDISR, it means there is something wrong with HDClone, no matter how good HDClone is in other circumstances.
    Never assume that an Image Backup software will work properly in all circumstances, because programmers make also mistakes, just like you and me.

    Another issue is RBRx itself. I read it has been improved, but is it reliable ? I don't know for sure. Some members say YES and others say NO or have doubts.
    Faster and less space are not an advantage for me, when the reliability is questionable.
    I'm not interested in RBRx, it is NOT the same as FDISR, because there are major differences, like the baseline snapshot for instance.
    How many posts have been dedicated to RBRx and its issues ? Hundreds at Wilders.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2007
  20. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Hi Erik

    Your logic isn't totally right. Lets use ATI for example. You do a normal image, and it stores, the mbr, track0, partition tables, and your data. But it's not file based, it's sector based. BUT.... it only saves sectors in use, and the only way it can now that is to look at the file system "stuff", and determine what sectors are in use and then saves them. So if I was comparing two imaging solutions using a system with FDISR, and one didn't work, then you would be right, it's the imaging program.


    But with Rollback, discounting the baseline, when you add a file to your drive via a new snapshot, Rollback writes the file to the disk and it records the sectors used. The windows file system has no record of the file, hence no record of the sectors in use. So now you image with ATI, and it faithfully records all the sectors windows tells it are in use, but the sectors in which you added that new file, aren't known to windows hence ATI never records them. To me this isn't a failure of ATI, nor one I'd expect them to try and fix.

    This is one of the reason's why my personal preference is away from the Rollback/eazfix products.
     
  21. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Peter,
    EazFix is a clone of RollbackRx, right ?

    According this post, Acronis True Image works for EazFix, so I assume also for RollbackRx.

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=143872&page=5&highlight=eazFix/Rollback POST 120
    But I'm not going to put more time in this. RollbackRx doesn't interest me.
    I never tested ATI + EazFix (or RollbackRx) myself.
    So I don't know what is true or not true anymore.
     
  22. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Erik

    Your last point says it for me. All I know and care about is ATI and SP work with FDISR. I don't know about HDClone, and.....

    Pete
     
  23. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Peter,
    I'm getting crazy reading all these combinations of Immediate System Recovery and Image Backup.
    We know at least, which combination works for us.
    For me it works flawless for more than a year and that's enough proof for me.
     
  24. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    Again apologies to 'the shadow"
    This thread will answer most of your q's re RBRx and imaging although as noted on the HorizonDatasys forum there are new devts underway.

    I read the whole thread again:
    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=143872&page=5&highlight=eazFix/Rollback
    I was re-amazed at the complexity some peeps were willing to deal with.
    I note that at the end of the thread there was no real consensus as to which "Imagers" were good to go with RBRx other than perhaps Paragon and Drivesnapshot from outside windows.

    I am in no disagreement with you Peter and E-A.
    I have no plans to change from my current strategy
    This strategy will be reviewed when Shadow Protect V3 is out or when Terabyte release their imaging updates. :)
    I wish RB would be an easier tool to work with and I still believe it has a place.
    I see many familiar names/nicks on the HDS forum.

    To the shadow: HTH. :blink:
    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2007
  25. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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