Failed UEFI restores to a new HD

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by Brian K, Feb 21, 2015.

  1. Atari800xl

    Atari800xl Registered Member

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    OK, so maybe Manolito can make a small HowTo on
    "using Bootice to 'help' your imaging app with restoring/repairing track 0"
    (something like that?)

    I'm using Bootice all the time to install Grub4Dos MBR on "BIOS" systems (*), but I'm not an expert on its "inner workings", so I'm not sure if there or important things to look out for when used as this "imager helper" with UEFI/GPT systems.

    (*) You can do this "scripted" as well (but that's as far as my knowledge goes, I'm afraid):
    bootice.exe /device=c: /mbr /install /type=grub4dos /mbr-disable-floppy /quiet /v045
     
  2. andylau

    andylau Registered Member

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    I think it is better to give imaging apps' developers to fix problems of their apps.
    Of course, it is good that if we face these problems and know how to fix them.
     
  3. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    Hi Brian! BOOTice cannot "Process MBR" unless there's a MBR present. If Sector 0 has been truly cleared, BOOTice cannot assume that this is an MBR-based disk to be processed... it just doesn't know. BOOTice nowadays contains a new feature called "Parts Manage"... this is where the disk is initialized to either MBR or GPT and even partitions may be created. Once this structure has been attained (you make it an MBR disk), the "Process MBR" will be available for either re-initialization or saving/restoring.

    The best extreme example of this is a Rollback RX enabled partition/disk. Sector 0 is really an MBR that's been totally micromanaged (bastardized) by RBrx... BUT, it's still a basic MBR structure with an MBR partition table. BOOTice sees this and offers the user the ability to re-initialize it or save/restore it. If Sector 0 is BLANK, it has no idea what type of disk this is... yet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  4. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    In the "Process MBR" mode it can backup from 1-63 (Decimal) sectors... your choice, and restore same, but only to a device that already has an MBR structure of some kind. If nothing's there, it must be created first.
     
  5. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    Just a heads up here. I hadn't used BOOTice in quite a while and the last time I used it I only used MBR restoration to the same HDD it came from.

    In playing with the newest version, and using BLANK disks (like Bryan, I like to play sometimes also :)), I discovered a bit of an anomaly. I created a SINGLE PARTITION MBR-based HDD and saved Track 0 (sectors 1-63 decimal) using BOOTice. I then reCreated a 4-partiton (equal sized) MBR-based HDD. I then went back and restored my single partition Track 0 on top of the 4-partition MBR... and made sure the "Keep signature and partition table untouched" feature was not CHECKed (this allows me to overwrite the existing partition table and signature record during the process). When finished, I expected to see a single partition disk the size of the whole disk.

    What I found instead was a single partition disk that was only a quarter of the size of the disk... as though it took on the personality of one of the previous partitions in the 4-partition overwrite. Not only that... Explorer said the partition was only 1/4th of the disk but "Disk Mgmt" said its size was the whole disk...o_O?? I then went and used MiniTool's "Partition Wizard" to look at the disk structure. Sure enough, it said the disk was fully used but that the size was only 1/4 of the real size. When I looked at the devices properties, it said the partition was only 1/4 of the disk's size but that ist used the entire disk.

    Until I know more, right now I'm just scratching my head... and offering a warning :confused:
     
  6. Atari800xl

    Atari800xl Registered Member

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    Thanks for the warning. BootIce is a very powerful tool, but also very dangerous! So for now let's conclude that it's not the "easy fix" for restore problems, at least not for "everybody".
     
  7. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    Since Windows EXPLORER and DISK MANAGEMENT disagree on the size of the restored partition in the table, I'm thinking the entire table entry didn't make it. There are two places in a partition table entry that can be used to determine size of the partition... the starting and ending CHS (Cylinder/head/Sector) of the table entry, and the last 4-bytes of the entry that specify the # of sectors in the partition. These are clearly out of sync after the above operation...
     
  8. Jim1cor13

    Jim1cor13 Registered Member

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    Thank you froggie for the details of BOOTice. I have used this before and
    find it very useful, but it does have some oddities. I have used it to get
    flashdrives to work that were bootable but not being 'seen' properly on a system,
    so I would reformat and set it to "USB-HDD" which for some reason fixed the
    non booting FD. It has good formatting features and flexible but it is a tool
    one needs to be cautious with.

    As far as a simple and powerful tool to backup/restore MBR, I have used MBRfix
    for years, one can save as many sectors as needed, it is all command line. I have often
    saved sectors 0 - 2064 on my drives. One can save just the MBR or as many sectors
    as they want. Very simple once the command line is learned. MBRfix is free and comes
    in x32/x64 versions. Restore is a breeze also, very reliable.
    I have not tried it on Win 8, but it has worked great on everything
    up to Win 7. I see no reason it would not work on Win 8.

    Here is additional info if anyone is interested:
    http://www.sysint.no/nedlasting/mbrfix.htm

    http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/Hard-Disk-Utils/MBRFix.shtml

    Thanks BrianK for the thread! Excellent information and much appreciated. :)

    Jim
     
  9. manolito

    manolito Registered Member

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    I started using BootICE after testing Rollback RX 10.2, because after restoring from a HOt Acronis Backup to a wiped HDD my system would not boot (Win7 64-bit).

    I restored the MBR AFTER restoring the image backup, so there were no problems with a non-existent MBR on the target HDD.

    In these cases it was always enough to just restore the MBR (1 sector). But since I am the "computer doctor" for a couple of friends, and some of them do have UEFI / GPT systems, I am very curious if restoring the MBR or track 0 can reliably cure the non-bootable issue after restoring images to a wiped HDD. And since I do not have such a system myself, I have to rely on you guys to test it...


    Cheers
    manolito
     
  10. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    Great information. Thanks guys.

    Unfortunately we don't have an answer for someone who doesn't know about the pitfalls of AOMEI, etc. He/she has a HD failure, restores an image to a new, empty HD and the UEFI OS doesn't boot. It's difficult without a First Track backup.

    Users of AOMEI, etc. Please complain to the company.
     
  11. appster

    appster Registered Member

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    Personally, since I'm using the Free version of AOMEI Backupper it's easier to just use another Free imager that can restores a GPT system to a new HD (in the event of a HD crash) - e.g., EaseUS ToDo - than to go through the hassle of complaining to AOMEI about Backupper's deficiency. Of course if I had the Paid version it would be a different story. ;)

    Ps. Brian, your testing and findings are most appreciated! :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  12. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    appster,

    If you have a MBR system the above doesn't apply to you.

    Edit... Just noticed you have WinXP SP3. You are OK as far as AOMEI restores are concerned.
     
  13. appster

    appster Registered Member

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    Well I don't know how much more 'mileage' I'm going to get out of my legacy hardware & OS, and as long as there are some free imagers (e.g., EaseUS ToDo) that can restore a GPT system to a new drive, I might as well move on as my next system will most likely be GPT!
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  14. oliverjia

    oliverjia Registered Member

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    Macrium Reflect v5.3 is a free, good one for GPT/UEFI/Secureboot.
     
  15. appster

    appster Registered Member

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    Thanks but I would prefer a free imager that can do differentials/incrementals, such as EaseUS ToDo.
     
  16. MisterB

    MisterB Registered Member

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    I've sent them an email with a link to the thread where the first track issue was revealed. It should give them enough information to fix it. I'm not a paid user but I keep getting the paid versions of their software from giveaway sites.

    For those who don't know about the dangers and difficulties of imaging, I generally recommend that they use the OSes built in imaging function. On Windows 7 it is slow and takes up a lot of disk space but it always works and is fairly simple to use so showing someone who isn't familiar with imaging how to use it is easy.
     
  17. Wendi

    Wendi Registered Member

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    Hi Brian, it's been a while. I just saw this and as a devout DS user your findings are very disappointing to say the least. Noting that you did restore the Partition Table I'm wondering how it can be that track0 wan't restored correctly? Would you please elaborate on that? Also, did you use the latest build of DS (dated Feb 9 2015)?

    Best regards,
    Wendi
     
  18. andylau

    andylau Registered Member

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    I think Brian was used that build.

    Maybe just monthly build changes, but people were never known what were changed.
    Maybe just updated the trial period.
    That is one thing that I do not like DS.
     
  19. Wendi

    Wendi Registered Member

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    Andy, none of us really know the extent of changes (if any) from DS build to build. Sure it would be nice to have release notes accompany each new DS build, but at this point Brian's test results are my biggest concern.
     
  20. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    Wendi,

    The issue affects restoring a UEFI Win8 to a new empty HD. No need for concern if you have a MBR system.

    I don't know why Restore Partition Structure doesn't do the same job as a MBRWork Restore First Track. Yes, I'm using the Feb 9 DS.
     
  21. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    BootICE is easier to use than MBRWork but the latter can restore sectors to an empty HD. TRF has indicated how to get around the BootICE issue.

    If anyone would like to try MBRWork with a GPT disk, here goes...

    I know most of you don't have a DOS UFD so put MBRWork on a TBOS UFD.

    Download the trial TBOSDT from... http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/tbosdt.htm#download

    Download MBRWork 1.08 from... http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads-free-software.htm

    Extract tbosdts_en.zip. Open the dos_tbos folder. Double click maketbos.exe. Tick all boxes. Select your UFD and accept the defaults.

    Copy MBRWORK.EXE to the UFD

    The UFD boots to this prompt

    >

    Type TBOSDT and press Enter. You now see this prompt

    @C:\>

    Type EXEC MBRWORK and press Enter.

    HD0 is the UFD so we don't want to change anything here.
    Type 7 and press Enter. (this changes the active hard disk)
    Type 1 and press Enter. (this selects your primary drive)

    The total sectors should be 4294967295. This indicates a GPT disk with a Protective MBR.

    Type 1 and press Enter. (this Backs up the First Track)
    Type E and press Enter. (this Exits)
    Now you see @C:\>
    Remove the UFD and press Ctrl Alt Delete to restart.

    Your UFD now contains BACK1.BIN (the backup)


    To restore the First Track, boot the UFD

    The UFD boots to this prompt

    >

    Type TBOSDT and press Enter. You now see this prompt

    @C:\>

    Type EXEC MBRWORK and press Enter.

    HD0 is the UFD so we don't want to change anything here.
    Type 7 and press Enter. (this changes the active hard disk)
    Type 1 and press Enter. (this selects your primary drive)

    The total sectors should be 4294967295. This indicates a GPT disk with a Protective MBR.

    Type 2 and press Enter. (this Restores the First Track)
    Type Y for the Warning and press Enter.
    Type E and press Enter. (this Exits)
    Now you see @C:\>
    Remove the UFD and press Ctrl Alt Delete to restart.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  22. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

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    Hi Brian! There appears to be some anomalies with BOOTice when it comes to restoring the MBR. Although the current version won't do it to a BLANK disk, the older version (v.8x) did that just fine... BUT, I don't know if it has the same issue as the current version when restoring and coming up with that Windows anomaly of a small disk taking up a larger amount of storage.

    I need to examine the MBR to see exactly what's being restored... maybe tomorrow.
     
  23. MisterB

    MisterB Registered Member

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    The Aomei PE Builder boot media contains BootICE among its 3rd party utilities. So at least they provided a means of correcting Backuppers UEFI deficiency. It would involve saving the first track and then imaging the disk. If this version can't restore to a blank drive, I think Partition Assistant could create a GPT disk it could restore to. I'm not defending Aomei as much as seeing a clever workaround with the tools I have at hand if I needed to restore a UEFI disk.

    I liked BootICE. It was simple and direct and had a lot of good disk tools in one package.
     
  24. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    MisterB,

    I haven't tried it but I think it would work. Backup the First Track and the Drive. Restore the drive image to a new empty HD and then restore the First Track. Want to try it?

    I think I tried something with Partition Assistant and had no luck.
     
  25. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    Add Shadow Protect to the Success list. I couldn't have done it without Pete's help as it was convoluted. I initially used the Linux recovery disk but it failed. The WinPE recovery disk was needed.
     
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