Conflict between TI 9 and Ghost 10

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by Howard Kaikow, Mar 13, 2006.

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  1. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    OK, maybe this problem does not affect many folkes, but I found a conflict between TI 9.2337 and Ghost 10.

    Should be easily reproducible.
    I do not know whether the problem lies with TI or with Ghost, perhaps, even with both.

    Implication is that one, or both, of the programs needs better error handling.

    The following should be reproducible:

    1. On a USB external drive, set up a Ghost directory and a True Image directory.
    2. In both Ghost and True Image, set up a script to back up all logical drives to the respective directories on the USB drive.
    3. Shut down Ghost.
    4. Start the TI script.
    5. Let TI proceed a bit while copying the C drive.
    6. Start Ghost. I found that it took a strangely long time to load.
    7. In Ghost, select Back Up Now. This took a very long time to respond, indicative of something strange right away.
    8. Start the script in Ghost.
    9.Almost immediately, there was an obvious problem. Normally Ghost displays text instructing you to adjust the "performance slider" to set the speed of the backup. However, I now saw the following message: "The performance slider is disabled because the Windows disk performance controls are not enabled. Run' diskperf.exe -?' for ..." I did not get a chance to copy the rest of the message because ...

    10. Just after Ghost displayed a pop up stating that it was creating the backup file for the C drive, the system crashed with a BSOD.

    So, there are ar least two problems:

    a. The message from Ghost about diskperf program is likely the result of TI locking those controls, or the diskperf program, itself, not allowing more than one program to access the controls at the same time. Dunno whether there are other possibilities. At least Ghost did trap the problem and continued execution.

    b. I would expect that the BSOD was caused by both programs trying to access the C drive at the same time, perhaps trying to lock the C drive while copying the files. If so, then one or both programs has inadequate error handling. Another possibility, perhaps more frightening, is that TI prevented Ghost from writing to the USB drive, and one, or both, programs had inadequate error handling to trap the error.

    I ran this on Win 2000 SP4.
    I would expect such a problem to be easily reproducible.
     
  2. live_lwoh

    live_lwoh Registered Member

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    Howard,

    why would you like to run both programs in the frist place?


    This sounds like you install 14inches wheels and 19 inches wheel on your car and was surprised that your car was not standing straight.

    After that you have started engine to rotate wheel in different direction and found that your car was broken.

    You attempted to broke the car and found it suspicious that the car was broken?

    I see no reason to blame the software for users doing crazy staff with it. And sure you know that Norton ghost is Acronis opponent, so the crash is definitely expected.

    I'm personally would not give you my car to drive, as well as my computer.


    Be nice to it and it will work.
     
  3. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    I had reasons, but that's not relevant to my reporting this problem.

    The error handling in one, or both, products is not adequate.
    Proper implementation would trap the conditons that can cause such problems.
     
  4. live_lwoh

    live_lwoh Registered Member

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    I guess that is controlled by OS, but who knows, who knows.
    I've triEd installing both products on the same machine, but found it no use. Anyway, I still have Norton backup as well as true image backup.
     
  5. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Error handling must be done by the app.

    There are indeed errors that an OS does not allow an app to trap, but I doubt very much that this would apply in this case.

    The most likely causes are:

    1. As TI has already started copying files from drive C, it has already ASSuMEd that it has the necessary access to the drive. Subsequent access by Ghost may be screwing that up. However, such errors can likely be trapped while TI is reading the C drive, so error handling may have been omitted by TI.

    2. Ghost may have difficulty accessing the drive AFTER TI Has started doing its thing. Again, such errors are very likely to be trappable and Ghost could be messing up here. Note that Ghost 10 is written using .NET, so it has very superior error trapping capabilities available, but th eprogrammer had to use the capabilities.

    I've done a lot of programming, the situation does indicate that some programmer omitted adequate testing.

    As long as any other software runs, each program has to defend itself against certain types of problems that can be caused by other programs, and, most certainly, a general use program, such as a backup program MUST intercept ALL errors and process those that it can, or terminate gracefully.

    Installing both was not a problem.
    Using both is the problem.

    As I recall, I had Ghost 10 installed first, then installed TI.

    On my sister's comnputer we installed TI first, and she stated that there was a problem during the Ghost 10 install, so I had her uninstall GHost 10. We'll try again. Alas, i'm doing this via telephone, so I cannot see what she is doing and what is on the screen.
     
  6. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    Running these two programs at the same time is like running two antivirus programs at the same time. They are both trying to use the same resources at the same time. and it will cause confiicts between the two. Both of these programs reace very deep into the os and it is just not a good Idea to try and run them toghther.
     
  7. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Not the same.
    AV software is restricted bevause of the interface MSFT provides for AV programs.

    File/drive operations are atomic events that can easily be tested.

    /quote] They are both trying to use the same resources at the same time. and it will cause confiicts between the two. Both of these programs reace very deep into the os and it is just not a good Idea to try and run them toghther.[/QUOTE]

    Does not matter whether it is a good idea to run concurrently.
    Error handling was not properly implemented in one, or both, of the programs.

    As long as any other software runs, each program has to defend itself against certain types of problems that can be caused by other programs, and, most certainly, a general use program, such as a backup program MUST intercept ALL errors and process those that it can, or terminate gracefully.
     
  8. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    Have you considered the possibility that these two programs running concurrently could cause the error reporting to not work correctly with both trying to do it's job while fighting the other program.
     
  9. seekforever

    seekforever Registered Member

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    That's the error message!

    I find it hard to believe that somebody who has a better understanding of computers than perhaps most people on this forum would even consider doing such a thing and then reporting a concern that he didn't get a nice error message from one or both of the programs.
     
  10. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Errors are reported by Windows or the file system or whatever, not the programs themselves,

    Each app has to trap and process the errors.

    The worst case is when two programs try to do the same thing, in which case, each program has to make its own decision as to how long to wait until the condition clears. But the program would always have the option of gracefully exiting, or informing the user, and stopping the script.

    This is not uncommon. For example, waiting for a resource to be released by an app. Common with file operations. Sometimes an app will decide it's not worth waiting (any longer), but it can gracefully handle the situation.

    Ditto for a situation in which an app wants, say, exclusive access to some resource. Windows API returns values informing the app whether it can access the requested resource, then the app takes the needed action. This is done via the normal testing of return values and does not even involve an "error handler", just proper programming.

    For example, the program at http://www.standards.com/index.html?GetFileTypeDistribution tests where a drive is valid and whether a path is valid before attempting to access the resource, Very simple to do. Not done with error handling, just testing API return values. Most of the time it is only necessary to test for a single value, so the test is rather simple.

    I expect that a backup program attempts to lock whatever resource it is using, but, and I do have a big butt, even after gaining access to a resource, one must still check for unexpected errors. I suspect the latter type of error checking is being omitted, in some code paths, by Ghost and/or TI.

    However, this is not a programming forum.
    I posted the thread here so users would be aware and the folkes at Acronis could reproduce the problem and determine whether the code needs to be changed to better defend TI against other software, or, perhaps, it was TI that caused the BSOD.
     
  11. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    I reported the problem precisely beause I know that proper error handling can prevent such errors.

    BSODs do not oft, if ever, occur on their own.
    They occur because apps do not take care to properly handle errors.

    It amazes me that anybody would object to such an error being reported.
    In any case, I'll not respond further in this thread.
    I've done my duty and reported that one, or both, programs does not adequately defend itself.

    And, yes, I've reported this also for Ghost 10.

    And, given the sorry state of the earlier builds of TI 9, it would not surprise me that there are still some holes to plug.

    Bye bye!
     
  12. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Hi Howard

    I've watched you posts over time on several forums, and I have you have a lot of experience and knowledge relative to backup.

    But I am somewhat surprised you would even try. Both of these programs have to lock the disk into a frozen state to work. To try and put error checking code into a program for every conceivable foolish thing someone might do would just bloat the code.

    My hunch if you reported this to both Acronis and Symantec is you will get the same answer, namely, that neither program can be used with the other. Case closed. Neither company will take this seriously.

    Pete
     
  13. Chutsman

    Chutsman Registered Member

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    Took the words right outta my mouth :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
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