Battery backup question!

Discussion in 'hardware' started by ratchet, Feb 16, 2009.

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  1. ratchet

    ratchet Registered Member

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    I'm thinking of purchasing a UPS. I believe most if not all also include surge protection. My modem, router, pc and monitor are already plugged into a surge protector. Can I just plug the SP into the UPS or can the components be plugged into the UPS and then plug the UPS into the SP? Thank You!
     
  2. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    I've been told it's best to plug UPS into SP

    Pete
     
  3. ratchet

    ratchet Registered Member

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    Thank you for the reply! Point being then, I can still use both without conflict then.
     
  4. YeOldeStonecat

    YeOldeStonecat Registered Member

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    If you're trying to use a surge protector in addition to your UPS...you're probably plugging in more devices than your UPS is rated for. UPSs have a max rating, based on their size.

    The good UPSs also have basic surge protector roles...matter of fact...quite a bit better. Look up "joules".

    IMO it's also good to plug in your network equipment into a UPS...such as broadband modem/router, switch, etc. I've seen far less "my router died" experiences when doing this.
     
  5. Eliot

    Eliot Registered Member

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    I MUST pick one of these up when I upgrade my pc soon as I will have 4 drives in RAID 0 with zero redundacy (only backup images, lol).

    Is there a calc page to figure this out? I'll list what all I want plugged in, just incase a resident guru knows already, lol.

    Quad Core Q6600
    512MB pci 2.0 express video
    4 sata II drives
    1 ide backup drive
    dvd rw drive (1)
    4 gb DDR 2
    19 inch widescreen
    router/modem combo
    desktop speakers
    usb hub with power line

    What would be safe to buy with all that? I don't mind the price really. Peace of mind is something you don't put a price on. :thumb:
     
  6. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    On point 1, that's why you should plug the UPS into the surge protector.

    The good UPS's do have surge protector's but they are very basic. I have high end surge protector's that cost as much as the UPS. That way when on line power the high end surge protector handles the job, and when on battery backup, they are out of the picture.

    On point 3. Totally agree.

    Pete
     
  7. YeOldeStonecat

    YeOldeStonecat Registered Member

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    http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/index.cfm

    To help ease a home budget, checkout their online store...get some savings.
     
  8. YeOldeStonecat

    YeOldeStonecat Registered Member

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    If the other devices are "light" in load. I wouldn't want to see some HP LaserJet 5000n sharing that surge strip with other more important devices trying to get good power via the APC. The poorer the power quality that feeds the APC...the shorter the life of the APC batteries...you end up replacing those expensive suckers yearly.

    I shoot for...APC right into an outlet, and that surge strip into another outlet.
     
  9. Eliot

    Eliot Registered Member

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    Thanks for the link. :D
     
  10. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    I would recommend Liebert backup batteries. I do CAD CAM work and the controller for my mill is quite sensitive to fluctuations in power supply. When some heavier use equipment was turned on anywhere in the building I was getting loss of communication between the controller and the mill effectively ruing the job. I had tried a number of higher end APC batteries (after speaking to the co regarding my needs and following their recommendations) and none of them provided a true uninterrupted power supply. They just did not kick in fast enough. I then heard from a buddy that he was using Liebert and that it was the only battery he had found that survived the "pull the plug" test (basically yanking the plug from the wall). Loss of communication between my mill and its controller is now a thing of the past and I did not have to buy a high end unit. Now I have Backup batteries on my TV video recorder (2 in the house) because I had no other use for the APC units I had bought and I have a 3rd one sitting in a cupboard. I guess for most uses APC is fine but if the Liebert beats them in the respect noted possibly its just a better battery all around.

    Here is a link to the product page for Liebert,

    http://www.liebert.com/product_pages/Products.aspx
     
  11. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

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    In a situation like that what you are really looking for perhaps is Online UPS (aka double conversion UPS) verses the more common Offline (aka line interactive) then you will have no lag time.
     
  12. JimIT

    JimIT Registered Member

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    I would not plug a UPS into a surge protector. Some UPS will not operate correctly if you do this.
     
  13. Eliot

    Eliot Registered Member

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    That would be a good thing for me. I need the extra plugs because I want the bare essentials on the UPS. All the other "stuff" can stay on the surge protector it is currently plugged into.
     
  14. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    You are assuming I use typical surge protector strips. I don't.

    I use Zero Surge 2R-15W's, one for each system. Note, they recommend putting them upstream from a UPS.

    I do have a laser printer and it bypasses the UPS. It is always powered on first do to the short term starting load.

    Pete
     
  15. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Generally speaking, surge and spike (S&S) protectors are nothing more than fancy, expensive extension cords - a waste of money (except, perhaps for laser printers).

    Get a good UPS with AVR (automatic voltage regulation) and plain old extension cords if you need more outlets - no S&S. Plug the UPS into the wall (after verifying the wall is properly wired and there is a good ground (Earth)). Then plug everything else into the battery side, or the S&S side of the UPS. NEVER plug an UPS into a S&S protector as the UPS may interpret the power as dirty - since all S&S protectors do is whack the top (clamp) off of the sinewave.

    As noted, only certain types of S&S protectors can be plugged into UPS and this is because the load seen by the UPS when a S&S protector is used often looks dirty, and can cause conflicts with the AVR circuits. This special type of S&S protector is just another way to take your money. You don't need it.

    Remember, NO S&S protector can compensate for sags (opposites of surges), or dropouts (opposite) of spikes. They cannot compensate for brownouts (extended sags or low voltage events) nor can they compensate for extended surges. The S&S protector can only (partially) compensate for just 50% of the anomalies. So why use them? All computers should be on an UPS. If you have a nice big screen TV, it should be on an UPS. Same with home theater audio gear.

    It is important to note that ALL high wattage devices send surge, spike and sag anomalies down the line each time they cycle on and off. These include refrigerators, MW ovens, hair dryers, toasters, water coolers, coffee pots, etc. If you have one of these appliances your home or work, you need an UPS with AVR. If you live in an apartment building, you need a UPS with AVR.

    A 1000VA UPS with AVR will comfortably support a nice PC, router, cable/modem, WAP, PDA, and TWO 22inch LCD monitors. CRT monitors draw a lot more power than LCD monitors, and may require a larger UPS. Unless you use the automated shutdown software that comes with most UPS, or access the computer remotely, stepping the computer through the save and shutdown steps by memory, without a monitor, is not easy. So I recommend ensuring the UPS will support your computer, network hardware, and at least the primary (if using more than one) monitor so you can see what you are doing.

    Oh, and for the record, backup battery power in the event of a power outage is only the icing on the cake - it's the voltage regulation that makes UPS with AVR so special, and important.
     
  16. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Thanks for this, now at least I know what the difference is.

    I had spent quite a bit of time with the folk from APC (first a sales desk person and then when the recommended battery did not do the trick a tech) and none of the recommendations worked. This meant I had bought 3 backup APC batteries (one I bought on my own and then I phoned the co twice). Regardless of exactly what sort of battery it is the Liebert did the trick and I found Liebert support much better than APC which is why I am recommending the brand. No doubt if I had been aware of Wilders forum at the time I could have saved myself time and money by asking for help here but ,,,,,,
     
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