Are commercial firewalls going to suffer?

Discussion in 'other firewalls' started by djg05, Sep 16, 2006.

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  1. djg05

    djg05 Registered Member

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    With Comodo firewall becoming all things to all users and they admit that other commercial vendors are complaining about their free product, does this put them under threat or are vendors like Agnitum going to consider reducing their prices for home users?
     
  2. kdm31091

    kdm31091 Registered Member

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    It could happen but probably not. For example there's always been some free and some paid AVs, the paid are still there expensive as others.

    I think firewalls should always be free though, at a minium. Okay, I'll pay for an AV, AS, AT etc but paying for an extremely basic level of security (firewall) is rather ridiculous.
     
  3. Joliet Jake

    Joliet Jake Registered Member

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    Is there any links where I could see the complaints?
    Thanks.
     
  4. mercurie

    mercurie A Friendly Creature

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    Lifetime means price can not be reduced any further. :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2006
  5. herbalist

    herbalist Guest

    Comodo says that other vendors are complaining? Don't read too much into that. By the same token, Microsoft could make the same claim about Mozilla and Open Office.org. Both are free and at least of equal quality to the M$ products. The vendor for Process Guard could do the same regarding SSM free version.
    My opinion here will be very slanted. I support and use Open Source whenever it fills my needs. With one exception, I use freeware and Open Source exclusively. What little payware I use comes from small vendors who want to know what the users need and want, then add it to the product. Most of the big vendors have forgotten how to listen to the users or take forever to respond to their needs. With many of them, user support barely exists at all, or costs a bundle. Most commercial software is seriously overpriced and often its vendors are more concerned with making their product look good than they are with making it competitive on its own merits. Windows itself is a prime example. Open Source software (and a lot of freeware) stands on its own merits instead of a pretty interface and hyped advertising.
    There's many other factors involved here. A company that puts that much work into a free product must also have some other way of remaining economically viable. AntiVir supports the free version with the premium and commercial versions, as does SSM. If a product is free, it can't pay for advertising, which limits how many users will learn of it. Mozilla's only real advertising are its users, which limits its exposure.
    If this is more of an example of a company like McAfee or Norton complaining, that's a good thing. Too many of the "big names" use the "charge as much as the market will pay" principle, when their product often isn't worth but a fraction of what they're asking. Oftentimes, its monetary "value" is almost an arbitrary figure, chosen in some board room. While an AV or AS vendor has the cost of employing people to try to keep up with the threats, most other software doesn't have near that kind of maintenance cost. Software's value can't be determined in the same manner as physical goods. You can't figure its worth by starting with the material costs, adding the labor costs, overhead, and a profit margin to arrive at a price. Not including a box or envelope to ship it in and a CD to burn it on, software has no real material costs. Its "material" is code. The "material cost" there is the same whether the vendor sells 100 copies or 100,000. Aside from some distribution and maintenance costs, most of the cost is development and testing. Once costs are recovered, additional sales are almost pure profit. The old adage "You get what you pay for" doesn't apply to software. IMO, with most commercial software, you don't get near what you pay for. In lots of posts, both here and at other forums, I see people saying they don't trust freeware. "If it's free, it can't be any good." Tell that to the Mozilla, FireFox, and Opera users, or those who use Open Office.org. How about HiJack This? It's free, and how many thousands has it helped?
    If anything, good quality free security-ware might help force the vendors of overpriced commercial products to rethink their "charge as much as they'll pay" policies, IF enough people start switching to the free alternatives. A large amount of the commercial-ware costs goes into promotion and advertising, something small vendors and especially those offering freeware can't do. They live and die by word of mouth.
    Since word of mouth (and the internet equivalents) will decide this, we are in the unusual position of having a lot to say about which way something like this will go. The more people we introduce these quality free and/or inexpensive alternatives to, the more customers they get instead of them going to the "big names", which are all that most people are aware of. Most people don't know they have other choices. Sure, those who visit forums like this do, but security forum visitiors are too few to make that kind of a difference. Besides, that's like preaching to the choir. We'd need to reach a lot more people to have an effect, but it can be done. Ask the average person on the street to name as many AVs as they can. Most can't get past Norton and McAfee, and unless they happen to visit a support forum, it's entirely possible that they never would.
    It's up to us if products like Comodo, AntiVir, SSM, and many others get a big enough user base to make the big guys rethink their pricing and support policies. As for it putting them under threat, that's always possible, especially with "Intellectual property". If a big security-ware vendor ever stoops to such tactics without having real proof, I would hope that the backlash from users and the privacy/security community costs them much more in lost customers and other legal repercussions than they could ever hope to gain. As for being targeted by malware, hackers, etc, that happens to all the more popular security-ware. If their product is good, they'll handle it.
    Rick
     
  6. CJsDad

    CJsDad Registered Member

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    I dont think the commercial products will suffer.
    Its not like you are spending $100-$200 for a software firewall.
    Whats a one time fee for the year and the following year a cheaper price, its not like its going to break my bank account, I certainly wont miss it.

    Take a look at the AV programs, NOD32 and KAV, do you think they are worried about losing out to the free AV programs?

    While getting something for free is great, you never know how long that will last.
    You never know but somewhere down the road a "free" product may start charging in order to keep up with the demands of things like tech support, updates, bug fixes and so on.
     
  7. q1aqza

    q1aqza Registered Member

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    Is Comodo going to remain free? I have just installed it and it says it is a trial license. This suggests to me that it is going to be commercial some time in the near or slightly distant future.
     
  8. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Have to ask why you say that. Do you work for free, or maybe you would be willing to for go being paid for the "basic" things you do.
     
  9. Joliet Jake

    Joliet Jake Registered Member

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    You need to get your licence code...

    3) How do I register Comodo Firewall?

    Comodo Firewall is a free-to-use application. However, we do require registration and license activation within the 30 days of installation. You will receive regular reminders if you have not activated your installation.

    The easiest way to register is to visit http://personalfirewall.comodo.com/license_registration.html Just fill out your name and email address.

    You will then receive a confirmation email containing the code to activate your free lifetime license.
     

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  10. QBgreen

    QBgreen Registered Member

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    If the major (as well as minor!) player's pocketbooks are affected, they'll have little choice but to rethink their marketing strategies. I'm watching Comodo's AV. I have a feeling that it too will soon be a viable choice. You have to be a bit nervous if your fortune depends on selling security software.
     
  11. q1aqza

    q1aqza Registered Member

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    I thought I had copied/pasted the key in. I'll have to look at it again. Thanks
     
  12. bellgamin

    bellgamin Very Frequent Poster

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    I have this to say about free security software (other than open source) ---

    There are folks who do things for free, or give things away for free. They are called "philanthropists" or "eccentric millionaires" or some such appellation.

    However, unless a person has great wealth or an independent income, then sooner or later the other shoe MUST drop. That is, it will eventually turn out that...

    A- The erstwhile freebie was an advertising device or a loss leader for a non-free item
    OR
    B- The freebie programmer will achieve the goal of making a name for himself (like the sysinternals fellow, & the glad fellow Michael) and thereby get himself hired by an outfit that pays real cash money
    OR
    C- The freebie will simply cease to exist -- for numerous examples visit HERE and HERE.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    There is nothing inherently *wrong* with using freebies, donationware, & loss leaders to build up a base of faithful customers and then suddenly convert to payware, or crippleware, or adware etc. Here are just a few of MANY possible examples of those who have done this . . .

    1- JV16 Power Tools was a freebie for a long while, then turned itself into payware.

    2- The once no-strings-freebie CCleaner has recently become adware -- for those who don't read fine print -- & is so listed at fileforum dot betanews dot com.

    3- Avira's free AntiVir-PE & Grisoft's free AVG are both designed (primarily, at least) to draw customers to their non-free versions.

    4- The once top-of-the-line Spybot S&D (donation-ware) has gradually taken second seat (qualitatively) to the non-freebies.

    5- The pay-once-forever-license of DiamondCS's antitrojan proved to be an unworkable business model.

    6- And then there are those security programs that become crippleware after a short trial period, such as Ad-Aware.

    7- And then there are those free programs that are designed to drive competitors out of the market. I lack the $$$ & gutz to name examples in this category so _______ you fill in the blank.:blink:

    8- And I'm sure that you folks can add many others to the list of freebies-turned-payware & freebies-now-defunct.

    9- By the way... have any of you paid for lifetime licenses to use software that is no longer updated or maintained by its company?

    BOTTOM LINE Even programmers must earn a living. Thus, my answer to the question asked in this thread's title is this . . .

    I firmly believe that most all of the major commercial security-ware outfits will still be producing excellent security software long after most all of the freebie security-ware outfits have either gone under, or have *come out of the closet* with some method/gimmick for earning money for their labors.
     
  13. mercurie

    mercurie A Friendly Creature

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    Me too. I agree. ;)
     
  14. mercurie

    mercurie A Friendly Creature

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    Bellgamin and Herbilist,
    You two have made some very good points. Excellent food for thought.

    Some how there has to be money in it or a big wallet charity. However, I have the paid version of Open.office; Star Office. What does that say about me am I stupid to pay or am I just supporting the Open source guys. :doubt:

    All,
    Never under estimate the power of word of mouth. IMHO it beats a big Ad Agency budget over long run every time. :) :thumb:
     
  15. webmedic

    webmedic Registered Member

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    just curious how much info you can get into here a
    Yes and at my computer shop I give out little freebies to the students allot. If something only takes 5 - 10 minutes to fix I dont charge them for instance. If it is something that I work on and can't be fixed or it needs hardware to fix and they dont want to put the money into it now I don't charge. Who knows when they do have the money they may come back to get the work done. I can't afford a big advertising budget but I have found this way of doing business is better advertising than any ammount of advertising I could ever afford.
     
  16. ccsito

    ccsito Registered Member

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    Originally posted by Bellgamin

    I know that all too well. Otherwise, I would end up in the unemployment line or using a sledgehammer to break down big blocks of granite. :gack: Many of the freeware is either a project done by someone who has the time to expend in developing a program and wants to make something to share with others or by a large company that can offer that software but not have to depend on it to make a living.
     
  17. Seishin

    Seishin Registered Member

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    I don't think so.


    View attachment 183357


    Spybot will always remain free, mate.


    View attachment 183358


    I have been using Ad-Aware SE Personal for almost a year now without it having crippled anything in my machine. The only difference with this version is that it doesn't offer real-time protection and that you don't have the right-click scan option. But this version scanning capability is as good as paid versions of either this developer's or others'.

    Can you prove your point, please?


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2006
  18. Joliet Jake

    Joliet Jake Registered Member

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    Comodo say they make money from their corporate business but it remains to be seen if they keep this free for as they say the 'lifetime licence'
     
  19. Edwin024

    Edwin024 Registered Member

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    I don't doubt that at all. Comodo claims over and over again that the business software makes enough money. And I agree with that This free software is an add on for the good doing of companies. Part of the job, so to say :)
     
  20. Jarmo P

    Jarmo P Registered Member

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    Last week I installed a new version of CCleaner. I have no idea what you are talking about Bellgamin. Btw you should not mention crappy sites like that.
    Look at the link "There is 1 update available for your computer". That sucks big time. Glad I had NoScript on.
    Of course I went after that link telling it is downloading something, to run CCleaner to be safe if some adware was downloaded from that site !
     

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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2006
  21. Mele20

    Mele20 Former Poster

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    That is puzzling. I use that site and I have never seen anything like that there. I just went there and I didn't get any notice about an update available. I couldn't find CCleaner there though. Got Comodo though. That is the site I got Vista from (5 hour download) way back before you could access the Microsoft servers which were overloaded. There is nothing wrong with that site. It is a good site.
     
  22. TairikuOkami

    TairikuOkami Registered Member

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    Most people download "adware" CCleaner with bundled Yahoo Toolbar & then even instal it. [​IMG]

    As for this "war" freeware vs paidware. If you do not trust freeware, do not use it. If they earn money, I am just glad, since I can not donate. I use only freeware (except WinRAR and WinXP).

    I think, that commercial firewalls will suffer from Comodo, Outpost did (I used it for 3 years). [​IMG]
    And, if freeware turns into paidware?! Well I will just look for other or I will use none, that is all.
     
  23. Jarmo P

    Jarmo P Registered Member

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    Mele20, that link shows only with my admin acccount, not with xp home limited I run usually. It sure is strange. Now it shows something else on bottom, but you sure can understand my annoyance to see a site tell I need some update for my computer :(


    Maybe Belgamin has to find us another link about how to know CCleaner should be now adware.

    EDIT
    That link is back on the bottom of that site and is also shown with limited user account. There was some other link about TV channels, but replaced now.
    One should be carefull to download Vista or programs from other sites than original source, if possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2006
  24. ISSB

    ISSB Registered Member

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    Hi,

    I (and many others I think) would argue against your statement that personal firewalls like Agnitum's Outpost PRO or Zone Labs' Zone Alarm PRO are providing "basic security".

    Today top firewalls like mentioned above provide much more than just a packet filter functionality.

    I would rather say that personal firewall is a central module for any security suite no matter if you collect best-of-breed products or use a whole suite from one vendor. Moreover those AV and AS modules are those depending on signatures mostly and only few can offer reliable heurestics features.
     
  25. JRCATES

    JRCATES Registered Member

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    I think you're probably right, Tom. In the case of Agnitum....I think where they screwed up was incorporating that "Spyware Plugin" that most users simply disable. It is a resource hog, most people already have AS apps, but yet JUSTIFIES why Agnitum demands and can expect to receive "yearly renewal" fees! Because, as mercurie mentioned earlier....

    The "Lifetime License" is no longer even being offered! I think that is a big mistake! If offered at a reasonable price, that is something that would definitely generate interest in Outpost and thus slow down the defections to the free Comodo.....
     
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