Applicability of ISR approaches (née PowerShadow vs Returnil)

Discussion in 'other anti-malware software' started by ErikAlbert, Dec 16, 2007.

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  1. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    If Returnil or PowerShadow is your only ISR-software, how do you test softwares, that require a reboot during installation, in case you get a BSOD or some other serious problem during that reboot ?
     
  2. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Administrator

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Basically, you don't unless it's a standalone executable, regardless of anything else. In any event, neither product is currently designed towards that end.

    Blue
     
  3. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    I know what you are asking Erik, and I know squat compared to someone like you. I really cant answer the question, nor should I have tried. coldmoon can and I am sure will. I know one thing they are looking at is the ability to let you lock a program on reboot so it stays in the virtual world. But as far as deployment who knows. I mean there is a bump in everything and there isnt a global product that does all, yet.;)
     
  4. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Quite a big bump, if you ask me. Too many softwares require a reboot during installation and some users do always a reboot after installing a software.
     
  5. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    I have to remember that excuse. When a software has shortcomings, I can tell the user, that the software is not designed for this. This excuse will always work . :)
     
  6. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    you know, the funny thing is, most consumers are not going to be testing a ton of software. Vendors market their products for average folks. Not the hard core we see here. Most like me, use Returnil so I can do away with my AV and AS and it works flawlessly. I have full speed with my PC. Now I do go a week sometimes between rebooting, so I threw in Threatfire, "freebie", just to let me know if during the week something pops up and a reboot is needed. That is how most people are going to use a product like this. I have my router for firewall protection. So I think, I am in the majority, not the minority, when how it comes to vendors and how they market their products.
     
  7. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    That is your personal usage of Returnil, that's not what the homepage advertises.
    All types of software ? Except softwares with a reboot. :)
     
  8. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Well apart from the fact that the program is clearly unsuitable for your needs Erik, and therefore it seems should be banished to oblivion, the English language has a wonderful quirk of not necessarily needing to be taken literally. For example when asked what sort of food I like, I frequently reply "All sorts." This however does not mean I like all food in existance, as would be a literal interpretation, simply that I like a wide variety, too numerous to mention.
     
  9. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    My needs ? No one else, installs software that require a reboot ? What kind of excuse is that. Almost any security softwares requires a reboot during installation.
     
  10. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Administrator

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Be sure to let us know when you first effort is ready for market...
    I didn't provide that as an excuse. Currently, it is a simple statement of fact. These products are not designed to preserve the shadow session across a restart. Obviously, it can be done, but frankly I don't know the precise design tradeoffs, if any, that entails.

    Blue
     
  11. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    If Returnil's frozen mode is ON in order to protect you against all kinds of software and you install a new software that requires a reboot, it works like this :

    1. You install the software.
    2. The software asks you to reboot to complete the installation.
    3. You reboot
    4. The software is gone. Returnil removed it because its frozen mode was ON.
    5. No software anymore, no testing anymore.

    I guess you never saw such a software.
     
  12. Long View

    Long View Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    what is all this obsession with rebooting being a problem ? Just use an imaging program - there a plenty to choose from - make an image - install the new program - play with the new program - restore the old image. It' s not that difficult and has little or anything to do with PowerShadow or Returnil. People will be saying next that these programs are no good because they don't defragment
    your drives or make coffee on demand !!!!!
     
  13. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    LOL @ Imaging program. Is that what you call Immediate System Recovery ?

    1. First a backup
    2. The software causes a serious problem after reboot.
    3. Then a restore.

    I have another solution : reinstall your system partition manually, then you don't need an imaging program.
     
  14. Long View

    Long View Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    It is true that taking 4 or 5 minutes to restore is not everyone's idea of immediate but it is slightly quicker than your suggestion of "reinstall your partition manually" which I take to be humorous ?

    EDIT For the sake of accuracy - just made an image 1 minute 12 seconds from start to finish and restored 3 minutes 10 seconds from start to finish including reboots.

    In an attempt to keep this OT all I'm saying is that the criticism that neither Returnil nor PowerShadow can handle a reboot is not all that important and yes I know that FD-ISR is wonderful but that is not the point of this thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2007
  15. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    That's a personal timing and still 4m22s, my ISR-software does it in 1m42s and PowerShadow/Returnil do it even faster, if the software doesn't require a reboot of course.
    PowerShadow and Returnil are both Immediate System Recovery and the bottom line is that you can't recover, when something goes wrong with a software that requires a reboot and there is no way to whitewash this.

    I didn't buy my ISR-software to use ShadowProtect for each software that requires a reboot. I expect from my ISR-software, that it does that job also.
    And how do I know in advance that a new software requires a reboot ?
    First with Returnil, oops it doesn't work, then with Image Backup, very convenient !!!
     
  16. steve161

    steve161 Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil


    100 percent protection, just as advertised :D


    Edit: Blue, just saw your post. Will do.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2007
  17. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Try now a software that requires a reboot, firewalls or scanners usually do.
     
  18. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Administrator

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Erik,

    What whitewash?
    OK, you expect that, you have that with a product which is not commercially available at the moment and you seem intent on infecting every thread on this site related to virtualization with that product either explicitly or implicitly.

    Here's a clue - I own FD-ISR, I have the last build, I've used it and - to be perfectly blunt - for my needs, products like Returnil or PowerShadow (or Shadow Defender or ShadowUser Pro) are a lot more appropriate. I actually use them and would recommend them to most people in preference to FD-ISR. That's right - given the choice of FD-ISR or something like PowerShadow or Returnil and an image backup/disk clone solution, I would choose the latter. I don't need, and I don't want, a bunch of online and/or archived snapshots. Why? Well, I don't go around installing everything with .exe appended to the end on my machine. I do my homework beforehand. Have I had times when my system headed south? Sure, and I've been up in less than a minute on my alternate boot partition that uses no third party software, just a second XP Pro installation on a second physical disk. If you obsess over a minute here and a few seconds there, this is faster than FD-ISR or any other solution since it's a native boot.
    How do you know? Well first, you get a clue and read the documentation before installing, that's how you know. Sheesh..., this is getting older by the day....

    Finally - this thread has a topic, let's try to stay with it.

    Blue
     
  19. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    That's me, just call me by name, I have no problems with this.
    I know already that my ISR-software is better and I don't care, because YOU have to work with it, not me.
     
  20. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Administrator

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Gee, thanks for pointing out the obvious error of my ways, I guess you have a much better feel for my needs and desires than I do.
    If you didn't care, we wouldn't be reading your continuing commentary on the subject, so let's not be completely disingenuous on this decidedly off-topic excursion.

    Blue
     
  21. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Blue,
    I'm just giving the OP a complete picture, if he doesn't understand it, it's not my fault. I'm not going to quarrel about this, it is just software.
    I'm used to personal comments and I don't care, because nobody here could convince me, I'm wrong and they don't offer better solutions either.
    Maybe nobody wants better solutions and do a chitchat about Returnil vs. PS. :D
     
  22. Coldmoon

    Coldmoon Returnil Moderator

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Erik,
    I can gurantee that there is no one who has pride in their development efforts and faith in thier strategy that does not obsess over how to make thier solutions better. Just because there is nothing immediately available that replicates the feature set you are looking for does not mean that the ideas have vanished into the ether or that there will never be a similar product ;)

    Mike
     
  23. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    I'm only trying to tell you, that Returnil divides all types of softwares in two major groups :

    1. Softwares that don't require a reboot during installation and Returnil will protect the user very well, if something goes wrong.

    2. Softwares that do require a reboot during installation and Returnil will not protect the user, if something goes wrong.
    If it was a small group of such softwares, I wouldn't talk about it, but the number of such softwares is too big to ignore.
    That's why users have to use another software to test such softwares and the most obvious one is Image Backup software and that means a backup and restore in practice, if something goes wrong.

    Returnil is indeed simple, but too simple in this case.

    Don't worry about the competition, they are all missing that feature, except two : ShadowUser and FDISR, the one I use.

    It can't be that difficult to solve this serious shortcoming in Returnil, when you keep two Virtual Environments : the actual and previous one and offer the user the choice to reboot in the actual one or the previous one.
     
  24. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Administrator

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    Erik,

    Most folks are here because the want a solution today. Within that pragmatic constraint, FD-ISR is not a viable solution. FD-ISR Rescue does remain a viable approach if that is the style of solution one desires. It will give a user the bulk of what FD-ISR does in terms of used functionality at the expense of flexibility, at a more desireable price point, with the likelihood of fewer support requirements (and costs) from the vendor due to the simplified feature set. If they had asked me what they should have implemented in FD-ISR Rescue, I would have said what they did plus the ability to make offline archives.

    As for idle chit-chat...., if you believe my postings are nothing more than that, then so be it.

    Regards,

    Blue
     
  25. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

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    Re: PowerShadow vs Returnil

    And that is what I wanted and found, like most like me. Well said. Nuff said.;)
     
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