An endangered internet species: Firefox

Discussion in 'other software & services' started by mood, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. mood

    mood Updates Team

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    An endangered internet species: Firefox
    August 14, 2020
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/an-endangered-internet-species-firefox/
     
  2. sukarof

    sukarof Registered Member

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    I hope it survives. I came back to Firefox from Vivaldi a couple of years ago when they changed engine to Quantum. It is blazing fast, almost regardles of how many extensions I use (22 for now) I'd even pay for it if it comes to that.
     
  3. imdb

    imdb Registered Member

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    yeah, i hope so too. but it seems it'll become a niche product if they stick with their current roadmap with all those unnecessary changes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  4. Brummelchen

    Brummelchen Registered Member

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    From my view - Mozilla started too late with its new services like Lockwise (password sync over devices) and VPN and some more. They would like to jump into a heavy fought market and only have its reputation from Firefox. I still use Firefox but same as him I won't use or buy services from them because I already have. Mozilla have or had so many fields to work on like they did in the past, but to lay off developers won't help this way.
     
  5. zapjb

    zapjb Registered Member

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    USA still the best. But barely.
    I switched from Firefox to Vivaldi about 6 months ago. Happy I did so. So much faster & ootb safer imho.
     
  6. monkeylove

    monkeylove Registered Member

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    I switched to Firefox for these reasons:

    1. It had a classic UI plus additional toolbars on top and a status bar, and addons to add a vertical toolbar.

    2. It had lots of addons, including those that combined Youtube and video sniffers and download managers, like Flashgot with DownThemAll.

    3. Later, I found out that I could tweak the configurations of Firefox to minimize telemetry, etc.

    Soon, they removed more of the first one, and I had to figure out how to how to configure the UI using CSS, but it didn't always work or had problems (e.g., sometimes, part of websites would be covered by a status bar), and it was sometimes tedious to do so. After that, more of the addons no longer worked.

    Later, I found out that free programs like XDM could work as download managers, had addons that integrated them to browsers, and could work as video sniffers.

    After that, I found out that many of the addons I currently use for it are available for Chrome and Edge, but what's stopping me from switching are problems with the others concerning customizing the interface and tweaking configurations. For example, I can't add toolbars for Edge, and there's little to customize for that or Chrome, both in the UI or something similar to about:config for Firefox.

    Also, many browsers seem to have all sorts of small issues that are difficult for me to deal with, such as having to add an extension just so that the browser will remain open even if the last tab is closed, pasting in plaintext if desired, adding an extension to stop tabs from accidentally detaching, the difficulty of tweaking the interface (including the setting pages and even addon popup windows) for dark or even grey mode, modifying keyboard commands, etc.
     
  7. trott3r

    trott3r Registered Member

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    Not keen on other web browsers like chrome vivaldi with the tracking that comes with googles engine behind them.

    Firefox seems to have a lot of privacy and security extensions compared to other browsers.
    I didnt like the regular version increase as it broke some extensions but it doesnt seem as problematic as it once was.
     
  8. Rasheed187

    Rasheed187 Registered Member

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    Same over here, the plan was to switch back from Vivaldi to Firefox, but FF got worse, while Vivaldi got better and better. So it's a done deal for me, I don't really care for Firefox anymore, those guys have disappointed me.
     
  9. zapjb

    zapjb Registered Member

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    True for me also.
     
  10. Alec

    Alec Registered Member

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    I also hope Firefox & Mozilla not only survive but find a way to thrive.

    I find the whole tone of that article to be rather perverse and a bit misleading. For instance, the author states "beginning in 2012" and then links to a "sharp decline in quality" article written in 2012 and complaining about issues nearly a decade old; however leaving the impression that the referenced article will discuss issues from 2012 through 2020. Meanwhile, the author in the current article seemingly gloats over recent job losses. For some reason, it just seems to me that this Steven J Vaughan-Nichols character has an axe to grind when it comes to Mozilla.

    I don't use Firefox as my daily browser of choice. But it definitely is not as bad as he seems to portray. In fact, it's a really good browser and the work Mozilla has contributed to the software development community in the form of the new coding language Rust and in it's Rust-based Firefox Quantum engine far exceeds, in my opinion, those of other "alternative browsers" such as Vivaldi, Opera, Brave, Edge, etc which are just re-workings and customizations of Chromium.

    Browser market share is not a proxy for code quality or value. The truth is most users pick a browser for its brand, simplicity, ubiquity, customizations, and availability of extensions. Google Chrome runs on nearly 2 out of every 3 PC's because it's a known quantity for most people, and they know that most websites and web apps will run on it without issue as Javascript developers tend to use it as the benchmark / reference platform.

    As for speed, in the vast majority of cases browser & javascript engines are getting quite good across the board. The differences in page rendering speed in the vast majority of use cases are overshadowed by extraneous factors (such as enabling / disabling of ad-blockers that eliminate irrelevant GETs; the quality of the network connection in terms of latency & packet loss; the way page loading is progressively rendered and its effect on the perception of speed; etc).

    As for safety, what type of safety are you referring to? Browser privacy or reduced levels of inherent coding errors / vulnerabilities? Firefox does not lack on either front. For instance, NordVPN ranks Firefox #1 with 5 stars and the lauded Vivaldi at #6 with only 4 stars...

    Best browsers for privacy and security in 2020
    Dec 02, 2019
    https://nordvpn.com/blog/best-privacy-browser/#:~:text= Browsers 1 Firefox. Firefox is a,best known privacy-focused browser. It prevents... More
    In terms of code safety, I would bet money that Firefox Quantum is inherently safer and has fewer vulnerabilities, as both Mozilla and Microsoft have discovered, "roughly 70% of the security issues that the MSRC assigns a CVE to are memory safety issues" and can be essentially eliminated as a class through the use of Rust. The only reason that a Chromium-based browser might have reduced levels of code errors as compared to Firefox Quantum, would likely only be a result of the vastly greater number of developers working on Chromium as compared to Quantum.

    Firefox is a good browser... any impression to the contrary... likely comes down to personal preferences, prejuidices, or posturing.
     
  11. Uitlander

    Uitlander Registered Member

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    I would say it's about time to send this 'dog' to the pound (or the Brit foxhunt) for some much needed and long deserved euthanasia. I have no doubt Mozilla Mothership has been actively engaged in subtle sabotage of Firefox since at least 2012...because no CEO or bigwigs are so stupid as to make the sort of decisions they have made over the last eight years, while totally ignoring their endusers' wants, needs, and complaints. The latter one can find in abundance on any of their various forums, going back many years.

    Frankly I see only two reasons to stay with Firefox. One: you are using Windows XP, hence Firefox, Mypal, and Centaury are the only browsers that kinda/sorta work. Two: you are a fanboy suffering from 'battered wife syndrome', and will cling to it no matter what verbal abuse or black eyes the developers send your way. For them that claim Firefox is so much more private than LilBro Chrome, you need to look through the 'about:config' settings. It's boring yet quite enlightening just how private it's not! Firefox has been quietly converting to the Google darkside for about five years now:

    https://www.howtogeek.com/228131/firefox-is-about-to-become-an-almost-complete-copy-of-chrome/

    To those that claim Firefox is more secure than Google...you are right, but not by much, and as its developers continue to port ever more Chrome code, those vulnerabilities will accrue:

    https://www.cvedetails.com/product/3264/Mozilla-Firefox.html?vendor_id=452
    https://www.cvedetails.com/product/15031/Google-Chrome.html?vendor_id=1224

    Firefox was once upon a time "a good browser". Maybe there was even a time when it was the best browser. Them days are long gone. Today Firefox and Chrome are in a neck-to-neck race to see which can be the worst browser. I have used Firefox since about 2014, first at the libraries, then at home for the past three years, and watched its death spiral. Went from liking it, to not liking it. to detesting it, all thanks to Mozilla Mothership and their fatwas and edicts to the developers. I am using it right now, and will continue to since I have little choice with XP Pro, but once I move on to Win 7 Pro before the end of the year, Firefox will not survive the transition. There are way too many better derivatives for Win 7 to fool with Firefox or Chrome. There are many reasons to hate Firefox. The developers OCD-like fixation to remove my ability to configure it to my needs, the myriad 'phone-home' capabilities hidden away in about:config, their fanatic devotion to the idea they know what's best for me...and here are a few more:

    https://digdeeper.neocities.org/ghost/mozilla.html

    For me, the the final straw was the porting of chrome code, and with it the mass sabotage of the addons, which was the last remaining reason to use Firefox. The attempted replacement of those addons (like BetterPrivacy and Self-Destructing Cookies) with uber-crappy alternate extensions, combined with forced auto-updates of Firefox sealed the deal.
     
  12. Brummelchen

    Brummelchen Registered Member

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    depends where you live. world wide firefox has around 4 per cent stable users, in germany around 24 per cent until Edge came up
    https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/germany

    Firefox Quantum is now two and a half year old - many users left, some came back, what ever.

    comparing the layout, there is a lot which was ported from firefox to chrome/chromium. chrome at least had a long time those ugly tabs until it changed to square with round corners - that was quit a long time after Quantum arrived with square tabs again. and now chrome copied the extension menu button. chrome had benefit from mozillas javascript engine. and on the other hand they spend a lot of money to be firefox default search engine.

    firefox improved in the past as above written RUST as a secure base. in fact there are only three basic browsers - firefox, chrome and internet explorer. the rest are copies.

    firefox did well to copy the chrome extension scheme - it is approved and it opens the market for developers for mozilla. the legacy extension theme was too intrusive on firefox, a lot of failure was caused by such extensions.

    for config - firefox has really advantage because of prefs - chrome has nothing comparable to this. flags, joking...
    and in fact some prefs got lost because of security, but a lot more have been added.

    it took me half a year to configure Quantum close to it as it was before - it was much easier to configure chromium (i don use chrome) like firefox was before quantum and luckily i was able to port some extensions to firefox. firefox and chromium are quite the same here, you need a closer look which one is active.
     
  13. xxJackxx

    xxJackxx Registered Member

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    I hope Firefox hangs on. Using a browser that is made by a company that makes its money from internet ads and tracking your usage (google) seems like a conflict of interest. I don't see a noticeable speed difference between any browser at this point. Add-ons, bandwidth, and overall device speed make more of a difference.
     
  14. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    I like Firefox because I can still use Sandboxie 5.33.6 and I can now surf using NextDNS.
    Acadia
     
  15. Brummelchen

    Brummelchen Registered Member

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    ofc this is already a matter:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=google chrome sell
     
  16. xxJackxx

    xxJackxx Registered Member

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    I have to suspect that anyone that could afford it wouldn't do any better. If they're not charging for the browser itself than they have to make money from it somehow.
     
  17. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    Brit foxhunt? What century are we in now? Have I missed something?

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/37/contents

    Personally, I find Firefox perfectly fine. It's the default browser on Ubuntu. I still use it regularly on macOS and Ubuntu.
     
  18. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    I like the Firefox Bookmarks sidebar which I have open all the time. Edge and Chrome don't have this. Do other browsers?
     
  19. Joxx

    Joxx Registered Member

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    Firefox was configurable, simple, light and safe.
    I don't consider it configurable anymore. For ex. you can't change bookmarks folders (see pic) and the Search Bar is a shadow of what it was.
    It's not simple anymore. Many functionalities that just bloat the program and could have been provided by extensions, like before.
    It's definitely not light. It takes too long to open and consumes too much CPU.
    It's still safe I suppose.
    Try Pale Moon for a taste of what browsers used to be, and should still be.

    firefox.png palemoon.png
     
  20. Daveski17

    Daveski17 Registered Member

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    I find it as fast as Safari or Vivaldi on Unix.

    Firefox.jpg

    I believe it utilises WebKit as a rendering engine on macOS and Linux.
     
  21. Brummelchen

    Brummelchen Registered Member

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    yes, chromium based do not have a sidebar by default
    Maybe you should check your current security software and plugins and extensions for slowing down, i dont have any issues concerning speed and memory. chromium is hogging a lot more memory based on its internal structure.
    chrome never had one, did you bother google with this issue?

    for me the search bar had its time and was over years ago when decent search extensions came up where i can define my own reg expressions and search engines without the need for xml (open search etc) or host offered searches. any browser offers an omnibar, even firefox before v57.
    pale moon is a single process browser, its javascript engine is very old and even more ancient and slow and vulnerable code. it seem fast because they removed a lot of code which seems futile in their special point of view. anyhow this is about firefox and should not end in the usual browser war, makes no sense and no waste of time.
     
  22. xxJackxx

    xxJackxx Registered Member

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    Agreed on both counts. It takes longer to launch than any other browser and sometimes sits and uses massive CPU when appearing to do nothing. It is still my preferred browser but none are perfect.
     
  23. Joxx

    Joxx Registered Member

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    I'm talking about Firefox, I wouldn't consider anything Chrome related.
    For me and many others it's indispensable.
    No.
     
  24. mood

    mood Updates Team

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    Endangered Firefox: The state of Mozilla
    Firefox web browser share keeps going down, while The Mozilla Foundation continues to make staff cuts
    December 10, 2020

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/endangered-firefox-the-state-of-mozilla/
     
  25. Rasheed187

    Rasheed187 Registered Member

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    Well, I'm quite surprised that you can have a revenue of about $500 million with such a small market share. And it's even more weird that they can't make a profit, seems like a case of miss management to me. Plus Firefox really isn't good enough, it seems to have become a clone of Chrome, while browsers like Vivaldi, Brave, Opera and even Edge try to come up with innovative features.
     
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