Alternative to True Image (nervous nellie)

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by bellgamin, Jul 18, 2006.

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  1. Jaws

    Jaws Registered Member

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    Thanks grnxnm, for the clear, unequivocal explanation. That was the thing that had me hesitate evaluating your product on my w2k machine.

    Now I will give it a go. Thank you.
     
  2. grnxnm

    grnxnm Registered Member

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    Well, the cat's out of the bag so I can now mention this. The next version of ShadowProtect (version 3.0) will support burning to optical media.

    Supported media types:

    CD-R
    CD-RW
    DVD+R
    DVD-R
    DVD+RW
    DVD-RW
    DVD-RAM
    Blu-ray BD-R single layer
    Blu-ray BD-R dual layer
    Blu-ray BD-RE single layer
    Blu-ray BD-RE dual layer

    Unsupported media types:

    DVD-DL
    HD-DVD

    This new functionality will first be seen in the release of ShadowProtect IT Edition 3.0 on or before April 15. The release dates for ShadowProtect Desktop/Server Editions 3.0 (which will also have this capability) have not been announced, but they're not far off.

    In keeping with IT Edition's current "zero install" theme, the ability to image to optical media using IT Edition will require no install whatsoever. This functionality uses no drivers and adds no clutter to your kernel.
     
  3. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    im guessing the main feature of version 3.0 is vista support?
    im glad it will support burning images to dvd.
    lodore
     
  4. grnxnm

    grnxnm Registered Member

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    Well, that depends on your perspective. For IT Edition 3.0, the main feature is Hardware Independent Restore (based on observed demand). At least most users seem to think that. IT Edition 3.0 actually has 9 significant new features. Keep in mind that IT Edition is not an installed product. It's very similar to the recovery environment for Desktop and Server Editions, however IT Edition has the added ability to take hot images of live windows systems without reboot and without installing anything - you just run it right off the IT Edition CD. For the installed portions of Desktop and Server Edition 3.0 there are a host of other new features (in addition to the 9).

    CD/DVD/Blu-ray is one for which we receive occasional requests. It's the Blu-ray support, I think, that is the most interesting aspect of this particular feature. Also the fact that no services or drivers are installed to gain this functionality. It's rather unique that way. Blu-ray has the capacity to store, on a single disc, a full backup of most users system volume. This simplifies things as far as user interaction goes and also makes it possible to mount the image to retrieve individual files. You can't mount an image that is split across multiple optical discs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  5. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    i wish icould have the IT version for home use:D
    that is like an alsome feature to be able to image the whole system to one disc that is 50gb big and without installing anything.
    lodore
     
  6. grnxnm

    grnxnm Registered Member

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    <chuckle> - Yeah, internally (at StorageCraft) there's a lot of amazed bemusement at how cool ShadowProtect IT Edition has become with version 3. It's always been a great tool, but now it's developed to the point where everyone here is completely addicted to it. It's one of those tools that, once you start using it, you really don't ever want to be without it.

    The bemusement is from the fact that IT Edition isn't even our primary focus. Desktop and Server Editions 3.0 are going to really please a lot of people, in all markets, but especially the enterprises.
     
  7. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Don't get to excited about the bluray yet. Take a look at how "fast" they are and how long it would take to do a 50gig image. You could probably grow a beard, even if you are to young to shave.
     
  8. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    OK so
    .

    Home users, single license, license for 2 or 3 desktop/laptops,
    SMALL BUSINESS EDITION and licenses
    NAsty discrimination issues here lol.

    OK ?
    When, come on you can do it :D :D :D
     
  9. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    You know it's funny. From testing on the IT edition, I'd have to agree it's primo, but reading the Acronis Forum, actually a lot of home users wouldn't want it. It's designed for a specific purpose, and it's unbelievable for that purpose, but there is no scheduling, no incrementals or differentials, and for those people who want set and forget, it wouldn't work.

    I just haven't figured out how they could take the IT pricing model and scale it down to the home user.
     
  10. grnxnm

    grnxnm Registered Member

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    "Discrimination" is an ugly word when it relates to races, ethnicities, etc.

    However, in this context, in the business world, it's more a matter of being "discriminating." Every business must carefully (ie, with "discrimination") choose its primary focus and primary target audience, otherwise the business will likely be inefficient and unprofitable.

    It's just an unfortunate fact that it's incredibly difficult for a software company, particularly a small company, to be profitable with the home user market. We'd lose all our profits, and more, in support costs alone. For us, it literally boils down to a choice between a home user, usually representing only one license, and an enterprise customer, often representing hundreds or thousands of licenses, and the profit/support-cost ration between these two types of customers. It's just a cold hard business fact that we are way more profitable when we focus on the enterprise.

    That being said, we still do a lot to cater to the home users, even though this may not be apparent in the pricing models. For instance, this new CD/DVD/Blu-ray feature is primarily intended for home users. Enterprises don't really use this type of feature.
     
  11. grnxnm

    grnxnm Registered Member

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    Yeah, that's true, BD isn't exactly blazing fast (although it's not that slow, and BD drive speed will improve). I started a backup of a volume with around 50GB of data to a Blu-ray disc before I left work today. I'll see if I can post the total time, and resultant image file size (and hence the burn rate) tomorrow. Blu-ray drive speeds will improve over time. I can, however, back up to DVD at a sustained rate of 20MB/s, which is about what I get on an average external USB drive, so in that case performance is fairly decent.

    Obviously optical media isn't the best media for backups, but this feature does have its place, and those who need it will appreciate the capability.

    UPDATE: Burn rates on my Blu-ray drive (Matshita BD-MLT LF-MB121 BD01) to dual-layer BD-RE media is about 4MB/s.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  12. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    @Pete
    Suit me though :D
    As soon as you do; let Nate and his friends know ;)

    @grnxnhm
    I know, I know; just pushing. You are resisting very well, damn it LOL.
    OK
    Fwiw, I don't really want nor would really use an optical drive solution: too many variables, spanning discs makes me very nervous, often quite flaky and fragile; physically the quality and durability of discs is extremely variable, safe storage is an issue, cant run it unattended, too slow, and I don't want to be tied to BluRay. Obviously would have to have a boot disc some where but would prolly make 2 or 3 and after testing keep two VERY safely packed away.

    KISS principle to the fore here.
    I'm sure you are well aware what fiascos can occur with databases and storage and updateing and restoring etc.

    You've clearly stipulated your corporate aims and relativities before and I do respect them. It's your business and I for one want it to do well.
    (what makes you think I might be a support issue? heh lol)

    I have exactly the same issues as you with economies of scale v service v simplicity and reliabilty, but in reverse from my perspective ;)

    Look I realise if I cant afford a Ferrari I will just have to drive around in the next best thing. The model is not the same but ....

    I want the best I can get, there may be in my opinion (self interest here donchaknow ) a small hole in what you are doing supporting at one end of the scale large and very large corporations and at the other home users: what about the small biz/medium biz?

    Between work and home I have 10 desktops and 4 laptops, works out to 24 HD just grew a bit too fast with no overall design. (and about 400 meters of cabling and 40 power boards.... god my life is in a hole when I realise that :ouch: ) HAve 8 people at any time accessing various configurations including evilminded tinlids. Not all entirely comfortable with HW and or complex sytem tools. Great at the stuff they aare employed to do but too nervous to do much else.

    Where do I fit in to the marketing plan? Heh, I need it more that some big CorpX with 100 back-up servers.

    My set-up is fragile and needs revising no doubt about it.
    Shadow Protect I hope will be part of the grand plan but where do i fit?

    I'll just keep nudging if I may without being a pita too much :cool:
    MAybe Ill get a easter/christmas/b'day present just to shut me up ROFL
    Just change the world a little bit at a time....:)
    I''ll stop bleating now.

    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  13. grnxnm

    grnxnm Registered Member

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    LOL - Maybe... Hmm.
     
  14. lucas1985

    lucas1985 Retired Moderator

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    grnxnm,
    I would like to know your opinion about enhancing the reliability of optical media with things like this.
    I wouldn't trade HDD-based backups for CD/DVD-based backups, though.
    Thanks in advance.
     
  15. grnxnm

    grnxnm Registered Member

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    Well, that's an interesting technique, but it still doesn't guarantee that you can recover data from a damaged disc. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think there's probably a much simpler (KISS) solution to scratched/damaged discs problem, namely, to make *more than one copy of your backup*. That way if one is bad, just use the other one. Having more than one copy gives the added advantage that you can keep them at different locations.

    I do actually backup some of my personal data on DVD. I try to use high quality media (Taiyo Yuden DVD+R) which I then store in a case in a cool closet. I'm on the paranoid side, and keep triplicate copies.

    I am going to bookmark that page though - it's interesting technology. One facet of the dvdisaster technique that I find very interesting is that it could, generally, extend the lifetime of optical media which is kept in pristine environment. The error-correcting information would compensate for the decay that occurred over time. Thanks for pointing it out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  16. lucas1985

    lucas1985 Retired Moderator

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    Agreed. This is my methodology concerning data archiving in optical media:
    I make two copies of the data (RAR'ed with some error correction info) using high-quality media (Taiyo Yuden) and save their checksums. One copy is stored in a safe environment (dry and cool safebox). After two years, both copies are checked and replaced by brand-new ones.
    LOL :D
    You edited your post when I was making mine.
    I find it very interesting too. I found this tool in a thread which discusses long-term archiving strategies of digital music collections (some paranoid people over there :D)
    Thanks for your detailed reply :thumb:
     
  17. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

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    Just musing about storage media:

    All storage media types turn over so quickly.

    Development cycles so fast.
    The only real constant has been the HD type, although significantly altered in size and speed !! (maybe vinyl records lol)

    Remember the true "floppy" discs: I know of companies that still have data on those discs. The only readers for those discs are now in museums.

    The history of data storage is littered with failed/not taken up options, physically crap tools that delaminated/scratched/warped etc.

    VHS v beta
    Minidiscs
    Linear Tapes
    Cassete
    8 track cartridges lol

    now BluRay v HDD :doubt:

    What is really interesting now is the capacity of flash memory I think now 8g?
    Even that has hardware issues ~10000 writes ? NO moving parts.

    HD:
    HD 10000 rpm with Terabyte storage :whoo hoo: -- has moving parts = will fail.
    (heh WD death star HD, IBM hd disaster)

    Blade servers: All fantastic:

    usability/scalability/safety/reliability/future proofing/ maunfacturer dependence/standardisation/interfaces/replacability: all issues.

    Think of all the HW upgrades 'you' have done over the last 15 years since that much envied Amiga or Commodore with the cassete drive turned up with DOS 0.0. :D

    Does anyone really trust optical media.

    My kids can trash a DVD in minutes: I hate DVDs especially the commercial ones "you cannot do this at this time on this DVD" :mad:
    I have videos nearly 10 years old that still have a great picture despite being thrashed: bet no DVD will be there in 10 years: got to be a bit of a luddite :D

    Get commercial dvd: strip and rip, make copy put 1 & 2 on shelf: wait for 3 to become unplayable and repeat. Dozey do and round we go.
    That doesn't even include the lasers falling off or misaligning when the toast gets put into the DVD tray by the techno savvy 2yo when daddy's back was turned for : i swear 30secs.

    There is no dispute that DVD/CD have a role: just not for me with important data back-ups.

    ANy body use any off site storage companies?
    Iron Mountain ( nice naming)
    Any others

    I have documents that I have to keep for 20 years ( for the lawyers )
    Even if I died the docs would still need to be kept: and it is my responsibility to keep them in good shape: anybody got a humididty controlled temp controlled fireproof safe box of about 27 cubic meters handy ??

    The veracity of electronic storage is still being tested in the courts: even the metadata of pdf files can be altered.
    Realistically there is a lot of pain any way you look at it for me.
    What I put on DVD or Hd even could be lost or degraded or unreadable
    The company I give my files to "loses" them: what do i sue for: the cost of a HD? Any protection for me in my files gone for ever.

    You reckon I think about this a bit: better believe it: wake in fear at night.

    Security is much more than a firewall and a good AV. :(

    Heh: http://www.taobackup.com/

    Be interesting to see how such an organisation as say Library of Congress is addressing their data/storage issues or a big law firm/accounting firm ( heh when they are not using industrial strength shredders). Makes my probs appear -cough- somewhat insignificant.

    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  18. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Does not matter if the disk is already made.
    What matters is the license StorageCraft has from MSFT to permit distribution of the CD for use on non-XP systems.
     
  19. lucas1985

    lucas1985 Retired Moderator

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  20. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    my college has a recovery environment and images on dvd's
    my college uses the crappy norton ghost 2003 thou=D
    so it is mainly for the home user but some businesses will make use of the burn to dvd's and blueray when the time comes.
    lodore
     
  21. EASTER.2010

    EASTER.2010 Guest

    Any new updates since April to add to this topic discussion?

    I just spent an entire whole evening then all night into the dawn closely going over these tremendously enlightening pages & each post one by one and am rejuvenated again to re-examing my own Full Imaging solutions choice.
    Excellent analysis here AND comparisons of results with some of these however it appears ShadowProtect is come forward in a big way.
    (Waiting with baited breath :) )
     
  22. sukarof

    sukarof Registered Member

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    I guess many of us in this topic are waiting for V3 of ShadowProtect, at least I am :)
     
  23. Huupi

    Huupi Registered Member

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    Why not share you among the happy campers at SP solution,oke every solution has his drawbacks,and with this stuff it has mostly to do from imaging in the living system,though with SP its amazingly rare to hear compaints about that,for safety reasons though i use only the recovery enviroment ( win PE),and it seems to be rock solid after 7 mnd use and weekly backup and restore( yes to check !!),for every day protection i use BootBack and this combo is sooo nice !!!
     
  24. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    Peter keeps saying to people to try the 3.0 IT edition but i dont know how i signup to it.
    hopefully peter can provide me the infomation
    lodore
     
  25. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    The only real reason to try the IT edition is if for some reason, say nvidia raid drivers don't allow the v2 Desktop recovery environment to work. Trying the IT edition would confirm that that you can now recover.


    To request the evaluation edition go here. Again I'd try the eval of the desktop first, as if that works for you they may or may not give you an eval edition of the IT edition.
     
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