Acronis Secure Zone taken 5 GB from c:

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by pinso, Jun 28, 2009.

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  1. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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    Hi folks,,
    if someone can help me with this Acronis Secure Zone thing,,, i badly needed to backup my HDD, i had heard about Acronis alot, i m using trial version now.
    So when i formatted everything n installed everthing i opened Acronis thought it would be better to back up a freshly installled OS.
    Then this Secure Zone pop up came n i thought it would back up my HDD. So i went further n clicked yes yes,,,, it was late in the night.
    It said it would back up the entire System Volume Info , i thought it was a good thing, as i waited ,,,it rebooted n took a wooping 5GB from c:
    Now i know pressing F11 would bring up the System Restore window in case of computer crashes. I could see instantly when i opened My computer the total space i had was 12 GB but now it went to 9 GB.

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/Afterssss.png

    I tried Easus partion manager n tried resizing but invisible partition is not seen,, tried the Hiren Boot CD, samething....Some how that 5GB invisible partition remained invisible.
    I reformated again as i had the back up but amazingly the full size of my HDD in c: was 12 GB but still 9GB. It couldn't format that portion of partition in c:
    I googled n saw some people with same problem n someone mentioned Partition manager which obviously i did n tried ,,,no good.
    If someone could help i would remain greatful.

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/Safezone.png

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/Diskmanagement.png

    I'll be honest , actually i think i didn't let the Secure Zone thing complete by itself. u see i badly needed to make a backup of my c: , so after opening ATI, the Secure Zone option came n i proceeded further ,,,it read n rebooted n started reading n reading, it was already late night.

    When the Desktop came, it contenously read, in the Task bar the ATI icon came n u know theicon starts glowing telling that ATI is still working something n placing the mouse pointer above the icon shows the ratio percent, it was still 0% to complete.
    At that time i thought the Secure zone had completed its process. In hurry i just stopped the dam thing. N continued to back up my C: ( which i felt glad to do )

    Now i h removed the c: n d:inside the Secure Zone but when i see on My Computer the sapace is only 9 GB , how do i remove the Invisible partition.
     
  2. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    Oh, that damnable so-called Secure Zone. Some folks find ways to put it to good use. But take heed: You don't need the in-Secure Zone, most folks don't want the SZ, and you don't have to use the SZ. Just remove it using ATI and do your backups to somewhere other than the SZ.

    However, if the SZ installation has gotten things so wonky that you can't even boot straight anywmore:

    You can also try using gparted, a free disk partitioning program:

    http://gparted.sourceforge.net/

    download gparted on some other PC, burn the iso file to Cd to make a gparted BootCD, then boothe gparted disk on your PC and reallocate your partitions.
     
  3. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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  4. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    Shieber,
    I must take issue with you regarding your out and out condemnation of the secure zone.
    You have not taken account of the fact that Pinso has only one hard drive in his computer.
    It was just for this set up that the secure zone was originally designed. It is not ideal to have backup images on the same physical drive that is being protected but it is a heck of a lot better than other alternatives when there is no second hard drive either external or internal.

    On his own admission Pinso started to make a secure zone with no planning and probably no understanding of how the zone can be properly set up. He also stated that he was tired the inference being that he was not thinking straight.
    It is a poor show to blame the concept of the secure zone when the OP has made avoidable mistakes in setting it up and removing it.


    Pinso,
    When setting up your secure zone you would have followed a Create Secure zone Wizard. This would have asked you from where it should take space to form the hidden secure zone partition. If you chose some unallocated space on C and D drives that is what it would have done and this should not have come as a surprise.

    I cannot follow what exactly went wrong but you have already made a further mistake in using non True image tools in attempting to correct matters.
    What you should do now is to open the Manage Secure Zone wizard. If it gives the options of resizing or deleting an existing zone. You can then make your choice as to what you want to do.
    It is more likely that the zone has been incorrectly removed. In this case the Wizard will show the "lost space" on your hard drive .
    To bring it back into use first re-create a secure zone taking this space. Then if you want to delete the Zone you may do so Using the manage secure zone wizard only. As part of the process the Wizard will ask where you want to allocate the free space.

    I hope you have not started using any other tools or you may be digging a deeper hole for yourself.

    Xpilot
     
  5. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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    Let me explain my problem from the beginning:::::


    When first opening the ATI the ATI Secure Zone windows opened n after proceeding forward it rebooted n allocated some of the portion from c: When the Desktop came the ATI icon on the Taskbar also showed up.On placing the mouse pointer on the icon, it showed time to complete the operation
    was 0%. i.e., it still had 100% to complete the process of making the invisible
    partition (please see the pic)
    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/ppppppppppp.png

    Right clicking
    on it would bring this option:
    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/trying.jpg

    So i pressed the Cancel option
    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/Optionqwewqe1.png

    I think the process of allocating for Secure Zone was not complete:

    Just to test if i was right:
    i went ahead with the One click protection their is on the ATI window. n it asked for 5 GB space requirement, so i thought it would occupy the same allocated partition,as it did before with System Volume back-up in Acronis
    Secure Zone, but ended up taking another 5 GB from my already 9 GB HDD space.please See the pic:

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/whasthappened.jpg

    This time however i let the process let it complete by itself.

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/oneclickcopy.png

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/whasthappened3.png

    After 100% completion it asked to be rebooted.
    It rebooted n then i went to the Manage Acronis Secure Zone from the Tool bar, n removed the backup and removing it would also permanently remove the Serure Zone . I went ahead n rebooted.
    Amazing the the amount of space it took was assigned to d:

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/6-29-200912-31-36AM.png

    So i used Partition Manager 8.0 n resized back to ( 9 GB c: ) and ( 18 GB d: ).

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/Gotbackthespace.png

    Although my c: had 12GB 5 GB is still invisible since i did not let the process complete as i mentioned above.

    By the way i followed Shieber, advice n downloaded the gparted BootCD:
    It did show on c: 9GB total size free 2.5 GB but " also 5.27 GB idle n hidden "
    Their was this option of delete n format which i pressed n the total 9 GB vanished from the GPARTED window , thankfully their was this option of reverting back n nearly messed by HDD.

    I had made ATI Rescue disc n from i did the restore thing , ihad my back up on d:
    Which only goes to show Acronis is a truely a good n full proof backing up system. In some it is also little robust.

    I hope u can see the picture ,,,, so is their any solution to retreive back the hidden partition.
    I would really be greatful........
     
  6. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    I hav no idea how TI handles the storage required for "one click Protection".
    It is something I have never considered using so I have no practical experience of how it should be managed. Indeed I believe it is really supposed to be user transparent!

    It would be helpful if your could show how Windows disk management now sees your disk and partitions. Also of use would be what storage areas are shown when booted from the TI CD .

    Whilst the penny may not drop for me it may well do so for someone else.

    Xpilot
     
  7. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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    Disk Management doesn't show the Invisible hidden image partition,
    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/12.png

    After reformatting n installing ATI , the first thing that poped up was Secure zone, i went further n made a back up of c: (please see pic)

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/1.png

    Then went went unto Manage Secure zone their i choose c: However here the size of the image partition had increased ,it completed the process , here is the pic ( size went down)
    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/2.png

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/3.png

    Again after goin to Manage Secure zone i removed it , the size went up on my c: again (please see the pic)

    Then i did the Restore thing by using the ATI BOOT CD n did the Restore, amazingly the actual image partion also came up.(please see the pic)

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/5.png

    But still no sign of my 5 GB space :doubt: :doubt: :doubt:

    Come on people any help here, i think pic tells a lot

    SInce the last backup was made after i choose to make a backup of the System Volume info i.e.,(Secure Zone )( without me fully knowing how it works n how much problem i could get into ) So every info i had backed up came again after restoring.
     
  8. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    The size of your drive as shown in Disk Management is correct for the sizes shown for your partitions (27.95GB). What is the rated size (in GB) of your drive?

    If the reported size of the drive didn't change, then the same amount of "space" should exist. However, it may be allocated differently.

    What was the original size of the D: partition? If your C: was originally 12GB, that only leaves about 15.95GB for D:. Currently, D: is 18.05GB (2.1GB larger than it could have been before).
     
  9. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    pinso:

    What build of TI are you using? Is it the most-recent build 9796 with the new and different method of handling the Secure Zone?
     
  10. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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    I download the recent version i.e., the free version http://www.acronis.com.sg/homecomputing/products/trueimage/

    http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/pinso/121111.png

    I wanted to see how good it was at backing the HDD

    My total size was 30 GB, i hag assigned 12 gb on c: n 18 gb on d: that would make a total of 30 gb.
    i used Gparted boot cd , from their i could clearly see the problme besides c: their was this grey area which was idle n hidden. But no option for unallocating n removing.
    i could show u the snapshot but each time i take a shot n restarts my pc fails to boot. { it will say automate check in progress n never boots to windows thank fully by using ATi resue disc i do the restore}.
     
  11. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    If you have a digital camera you could take a picture that way if creating a snapshot is causing a problem. I don't see why taking a screenshot would cause the computer to stop booting properly.

    If the drive is labeled as 30GB, you won't be able to get 12GB+18GB out of it. The actual usable space will be several GBs smaller (which is what Disk Management shows). As an example, my 20GB drive only has 18.68GB of usable space. Do you know for sure what the drive capacity is (it should be on the label of the drive)?

    Is GParted showing something different?
     
  12. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    There are two main sources of confusion here one has already been covered by Mudcrab and Kolo. there is always some discrepancy between the nominal and actual usable sizes of a hard drive. If your One Click backup folder still exist that would account for 3.1GB unless the size was change by user.

    The other lies fair and square with Acronis. The have used the term Secure Zone for two different backup areas. One is the original stand alone hidden partition. The other is a backup folder which in this case is on C drive. Maybe this is the default setting.

    As I stated earlier I have not used this " new improved" system so I respectfully suggest you review the latest Acronis manual which should hopefully fill in the blanks.

    Xpilot
     
  13. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    I must first apologise for the lack of clarity in my interleaved replies. I should have used a different colour.

    Out of interest I have down loaded the 137 page user manual and followed my own advice and have skimmed over the relevant parts.

    Some of my comments are not factually correct. The manual states there can only be one secure zone. It is now shown not as a seperate partition but as a drive pictogram under other in Disk management.
    So what I saw as a folder on C partition really is a secure zone dressed up in its new clothes.

    Chapter 4 explains that the one click protection requires a secure zone and after performing various checks it chose your C drive as being the best place. Way on in Chapter 9 management of the secure zone is explained.

    Version 2009 is so radically changed from all previous generations I will not attempt to offer help or advice on this version in future.

    Xpilot
     
  14. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    Use winzip or other file compresser/expander to extract the fils in the rar archive. One of them will have the extension "iso" and that's a CD disk image. You can use Nero or any other CD burning software to burn it to CD -- NOte you want to burn theimage not jsut copy the iso file. With Nero you would open the iso and it will know what to do.


     
  15. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    I was briefer than I've been of late; usually when deriding the, imo, cursed SZ, I mention that some folks have found good use for it -- you always come to mind. I also usualy meniton that I don't recommend backing up a partiton image onto the same harddrive as the original image--it's enough like locking the combination in the safe to be contraindicated for backup purposes. For a very small price one can get a second drive and that's what I usually recommend -- an oversight not to have mentioned that here. Given the cost of a PC and the value of ones programs and data, spending another $30 or $40 bucks for backup drive doesn't seem like an unreasonable expense for what is, I think, a minimal essential part of data security.

    As for the non-partition SZ -- well, Acronis can't seem to stop making its program more complicated and less useful with every added feature from the release of the dreaded ATI 11 right on through the inigmatic (or "what the heck were they thinking?") ATI 12/2009. A good sign that Acronis was spending more resources to chicane than to perfect code is when they decide to call version 12 version 2009 -- although, I suppose, in Acronis's defense, one could argue that with the naming style they were merely following current fashion, if that can be considered a defense.

    I suggested gparted because it is free and, more importantly, I found it to be more reliable than Acronis's code.


     
  16. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    In the past when referring to the secure zone you have called it an un-secure zone. For all previous versions of true image I strongly disagree with this description. However for this Version 2009 I agree with you 100%.
    I find it hard to believe that Acronis have abandoned to concept of using a partition hidden from outside or even user inadvertent interferrence.
    How they have the gall to still call it a secure zone beggars belief.

    I have always maintained that an old fashioned secure zone should be on a separate hard drive from the one being protected. Even though the current secure zone has lost its main security features it aso should not be on the main hard drive unless as a temporary measure in the case of a single hard drive being the only one available.
    An extra internal or external if a far better proposition. However Acronis do not advise an external drive because of their, to my mind the downright dangerous, Start up Recovery Manager.

    Xpilot
     
  17. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    pinso et al:

    I had suspected that you were running the latest version of TI, which is using a new method for managing the Acronis Secure Zone (ASZ). One of the reasons that you are having problems getting a quick answer is that we haven't yet figured out how the new ASZ works. I'm going to follow Xpilot's lead and go read the new documentation.

    Meanwhile, it would be really nice to see that gParted screen shot. Another way that you can do this is to download PartedMagic, which is a much improved version of gParted with bells and whistles, including a screen capture utility. You can create a screen capture from the bootable PartedMagic environment.

    MudCrab is correct about the disk size. The numbers shown in Disk Management, etc., are binary GB, or GiB. From your data you have 9.91 GiB + 18.05 GiB = 28.0 GiB. To convert to Mbytes, multiply by 1024, and again by 1024 to convert to kbytes, and again by 1024 to convert to bytes. 28.0*1024*1024*1024 = 30 GB. If your disk is advertised as a 30 GB disk then that makes sense and nothing is missing or hidden.
     
  18. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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    Thank u m8 for providing a link to magicparted will download n check it if that can help me. To my knowledge i was not able to find any program that can take a snap shot of any Bootable Program, but found through virtual paralled workstation: This is the best screen shot i came up with: (please see the pic)

    It was not able to show the c n d partiton but it did show the total size of the disc:
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3560/3678443676_490a33b472_o.jpg

    Here i edited the same pic with Photoshop n i m trying to show how it actually looked to me like when i Bootd Gparted:
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/3680998770_a2d0b9f20a_o.jpg

    The remaining 5 GB remains hidden n idle and right clicking brings the option of deleting n foramating .but again that will assigned to C only.

    Acronis should not hype too much about Secure Zone thing, and should not make them pop up at the start up of the program. Now i m rendered quite crippled with the hidden image partition , no partition sofware is able to see though it except for Gparted , though which cant do anything about it too ....lol:cautious: :cautious: :cautious:

    I'l try my hand at Magic PArted ,,hoping it will do some magic:) :) :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  19. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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  20. bodgy

    bodgy Registered Member

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    Isn't unused the same as free space?

    You could download the trial edition of DD10 and see if it allows you to extend the free space if that indeed is what it is.

    I've attached my disk report - the free space is all available to me to use.
     

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  21. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    Actually, I have called it "in-secure zone", which imports certainly psychological anxieties and is meant somewhat tongue in cheek. But imo, if someone wants your data so badly that you have to hide it, a "hidden" partition is only a thin gauze blindfold; a separate disk in secure location makes much more sense and is imminently practical for just about anyone these days.


    I take no issue with what good purposes to chich you have put the SZ. I'd hate to seem to criticze a person like you with knowledge and experience andthe generosity to help others. Yet I keep after the SZ because for too many folks, the SZ and worse the Recovery Startup Manager that requires it, cause serious problems while adding little benefit. You have conquered the use of SZ on your machine as I have conquered in another way the use of ATI10 bootCD on one of my machines. ATI is neither easy to learn nor to like for a program that performs so a simple fundamental function (backing up data). Most PC backup programs that are effective are kind of awful. It's one area where the MAC really excells (and I'm quite cynical generally about the often touted virtues of Apple products).

    As for what detrimental changes Acronis has made in the last couple of years, I've come to suspect that the company, or at least it's current management, won't stop screwing with program until it's totally screwed up. I tossed 11 in the wastebasket after amonth of trying to find a reason to keep it; I demanded a refund for ATI12/2009 the day I bought it. I imagine I'll take a look at ATI 13/2010 when it comes out in the Fall (ready or not), ever hopeful that Acronis management will be usurped by folks that appreciate good programing over marketing. However, I won't be surprised if ATI13 is the most poorly performing, most illogically thought ought version yet -- after all, in some ways Acronis seems consistent.

    regards,
    sh

     
  22. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    OK; mystery solved. There isn't any hidden partition. What you are looking at is the unused space in the Windows partition:

    pinso.png

    In the above picture, what you are seeing is two partitions on your disk; Windows calls the first one C: and the second one D:. The first partition has a size of 9.9 GiB and is only partially filled. Apparently you have 4.05 GiB of files on C: and the remaining 5.86 GiB is not yet used, but is available for storing more files. Your second partition is almost full, having 16.31 GiB of files out of a total available 18.05 GiB. The total disk size is 9.90 + 18.05 = 27.95 GiB, or what would be advertised as a 30 GB disk (27.95 * 1.024^3).

    I don't see anything missing here. The Unused space of 5.86 GiB in your Windows C: partition is just that; space that you haven't yet used.
     
  23. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    Just a thought to ( hopefully) wind up this thread. I advise pinso to make a new full image of the whole drive with a view to restoring it to a new larger replacement hard drive.
    It is quite a comfort to a have a lot of extra GBs to play with. The old drive could still be used as a backstop recovery source should the roof ever fall in.

    Xpilot
     
  24. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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    Hey kolo,
    i m not trying to disagree with ur logic even i see the picture total size in c: is 9.90 n d: 18 that would equal 27.90 GB. As i had already showed u in a screen snap i tool from Gparted it showed a total of 31 GB unallocated space.
    untitled.jpg

    How stupid of me to even mention my problem, for me claiming i lost 5 GB after using ATI Secure Zone.
    c: 9 GB n d: 18 = 27 (just taking the round figure ) So the actual size lost or hidden would be 2.9 GB or 2.5 GB (just assuming)

    7-2-2009 11-37-13 AM.png

    I hvn't changed this partition since last two years, ( i do all the formatting n fixing of this pc) . ( So its evident i'll notice changes that takes place).
    i agree 5 GB is the unused space in c:

    H u used ATI Secure Zone: Its a three step process:
    Operation status 1 of 3: ( i.e, Resizing Partition)
    Operation status 2 of 3: (i.e, Moving Partition)
    Operation status 3 of 3: (i.e.,Creating Partiton) after this it reboots

    When the Windows Desktop show up u'll also notice the ATI icon shows-up on the Taskbar n placing the mouse pointer will show the amount of time to complete the Opertion.
    Here however i dont know what it does during this Operation.

    Since i mentioned earlier it was late so i inadvertently cancelled the operation.
    Whenever i Google trying to find a fix for this problem , believe me i found so many threads posted by many people. SOme were able to retrieve their lost space ( the process they followed i couldn't catch them)
    n some simply stopped posting their outcome.

    If u h used Secure Zone urself u'll definitely see a slight change in ur Drive space or may be not if u let it complete the process by itself.

    I can understand not all the space can one use, if i h a 50 GB Drive n use it as a single partition , checking the the properties would show different figures like around 49.7 GB or 49 GB.
    I hope u r seeing the picture:
    I had posted my problem in other forums but they couldn't advice any relevent solution. So i stopped posting their. Now this forum is my only hope. :( :( :(
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  25. pinso

    pinso Registered Member

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    Hello bodgy if u r referring DD10 as Disk Director Suite 10, then i h already tried the trial version, doesn't show anything . Shows the same thing like Partition manager , Easus partiton n SuperFdisk. I hvn't tried making any partiton though maybe its good.
     
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