Symantec NIS 2007 Bait & Switch Licensing

Discussion in 'other anti-virus software' started by Atomic_Ed, Sep 30, 2006.

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  1. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    good question?? I really dont know if the downloaded version autorenews or not :doubt:
     
  2. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    I am thinking that it might be the case as I logged into my existing mcafee account and it lists my old products which I bought as downloads seperate from the trials I did which show as subscriptions in the list. I think if you buy the box or when they used to sell it as a download file or non-subscritption, then it doesn't auto renew.

    I have to wonder why their site at the store part isn't a bit more informative to the purchase options and their details.
     
  3. Firecat

    Firecat Registered Member

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    From McAfee's site:

    If I remember correctly, you must contact McAfee customer service if you want to cancel the auto-renew service. It also seems to suggest that there is absolutely no renewal discount.
     
  4. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    but how would you interprete this entry
     
  5. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    Thanks, I did not see that but it certainly answers my question. I think I may try and find one of their authorized partner sites who still sell the digital download which would be the same as box version with no auto renew or stored cc info on their site.

    One last thing, With all of your expertise how would you personally rate KIS? I have read many who say it is great but alot say it slows internet speed down alot.
     
  6. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    To be totally honest I haven't used KIS since early beta. I like Kav and have had good luck with it so I would imagine that KIS is a good product. But you can always give it a trial.
     
  7. Firecat

    Firecat Registered Member

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    Digital Download editions are not entitled for free product upgrades.

    For example, if you buy a digital download edition of McAfee Internet Security 2007, you are not getting a free upgrade to version 2008. However, if you buy the online subscription package, you will receive free upgrades. :)

    I believe bigc is correct, you are offered the option to use auto-renew just after purchase. I have heard that if you do not disagree to automatic renewal just after purchase, then you will need to contact Customer service if you need to disable auto-renewal.

    And IMO KIS is an excellent security suite. Very light and very stable. :)
     
  8. bs259

    bs259 Registered Member

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    Here is a copy from one of my other posts that discusses speeds with KIS 6.0:

    I had speed issues but not with KIS: i had Avira installed on this computer. when i did a speed test it told me my average was aprox. 8 mbps dn, 480 up. I switched back to kaspersky and my averages are 11 mbps dn and 480 up. so i dont know why you would see any slowdown with KAV, but then again im not an expert, just telling you my experience.
     
  9. bs259

    bs259 Registered Member

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  10. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    Thanks for the info. I spent some time the past few days trying to decipher mcafee's purchase options between the subscription or packaged product choices on their site. This along with their license agreement to better understand what I was getting. They used to have the digital download option as another choice on their store site, but no more. It seems they are really pushing only the subscription option as you pointed out being the only one to also qualify for the free version upgrades as long as the account is current. However based on what I can understand from their agreement verbiage, it appears that by purchasing a subscription, you are agreeing to auto-renewal regardless. Of course I am no lawyer or contracts expert, but it appears if you choose subscription then you have no choice. I did not see anything about calling to cancel auto-renewal right after purchase. If that is possible, I wonder if you will also lose the right to the free version upgrades as well? Anyhow, the other thing I noticed about buying directly from their site now, is that it seems you can not download the product directly and keep a copy on backup cd. They will auto-install it across the web only. I do not care for this option very much as I always like to have programs I purchased on backup to reload later if need be. Loading a 75mb+ app from scratch across the Internet is not that appealing to me. Especially if you are loading a new machine that you purposely do not want active on the net until your ready.

    One other area that is another negative to me is that their store prices are sky high compared to anywhere else that sells their same product. I know there are some with mail in rebates there, but I personally do not acknowledge any vendors mail in rebates as being legit. If I buy something that has one and get it fine, but before I buy any product with an alleged rebate, I first assume that I will never get it and then if it is worth buying it at the price being sold, then I buy it at that. However even with their rebates if you get them, the price is still higher than elsewhere by quite a bit.

    So my thoughts are always to get the product as digital download, generally saving shipping + tax, then just buy the new version when it comes out which is usually a year later anyway. Sometimes I can do this and still between the cost of both versions, pay less that the 1 year subscription license to begin with. A good example is that I told my wife I was going to buy buying the new Mcafee 2007 that bigc73542 was showing me in previous posts, but the mcafee store price for 3-user license was $99.00 subscription with auto-renew. She saw walmart had the same packaged 3-user product for $49.88 with no auto-renew. So she went to pick it up for me yesterday while I was at work but when she got there found it out of stock. They did have the Virus Scan + 3-user license for $24.00 that included the AV,PF, AS,Cleanup utilities, etc. It doesn't have the ASpam, Privacy or wireless modules but for $24.00 3 user license, that works out to $8.00 per computer and no auto-renewal required. I just loaded it last night and it seems to be pretty decent from what I can tell so far. I like the look of the new interface better, but the kind of unintuitive approach to finding the details for each program independantly is going to take some getting used to. It kind of reminds me of the new NIS 2007 which is using a similar approach to dumbing down the complexity for the average user but it does make you say where the heck is the details for the firewall and such. That site advisor thing is also pretty neat although I do not think it covers phishing sites too. So I got a little less than I originally wanted but hey for that price I feel the core compnents I need are there. I never used their privacy service before personally because it was always so buggy in past versions. I don't know if it is still that way or not and the fact that you can not add components later ala carte is kind of disappointing but it gives me time now to surf the web protected while I look at other options for my main machine and then I will only need a single license for that. I may just pick up a copy of KIS and try that and use the other 3 mcafee licenses for my laptop, and two daughter's computers.
     
  11. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    Thanks I appreciate the link as I may be buying a single license copy for my main PC. I will check out their site as well some more to see what their license agreement is all about. I am really going to be careful what I buy from now on after the whole scamantec ordeal I went through.
     
  12. Firecat

    Firecat Registered Member

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    Well, I am not sure about the auto renewal process, but maybe you can talk to a McAfee support engineer via Live Chat (please see below link):

    http://cs.mcafeehelp.com/chat.asp?oaid=79

    I hope the McAfee engineers will clear up your doubts. :)

    But if you are looking for multi-user licenses in a cheaper security suite, I would strongly recommend BullGuard. As I said before, a single license of BullGuard ($59 for 1 year) will allow for installation on 3 computers. BullGuard features reliable protection using BitDefender AV engine and Outpost Firewall engine combined with BullGuards own supplementary AntiSpyware engine and AntiSpam. :)
     
  13. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    I will try the mcafee chat and see what they say but historically never had too much luck getting any real answers from their chat.

    On the Bullguard, it did sound interesting and I had checked out their website before but it seems it is only subscription based and they appear to also use auto-renew. I will not buy any vendors subscriptions if they store my cc info our use an auto-renew feature or won't let you actually download the installer for the product like mcafee. I don't mind buying mcafee products as downloads or boxed however. I see bullguard lets you download the installer however but their other stipulations shy me away.

    As I said so far the mcafee appears to be pretty nice although I do have the basic version with less modules it still seems to be using quite a bit of memory, I would say somewhere around 80+mb or so. The performance appears ok though and seems more responsive the NIS 2007 did. Although there are alot less modules in my version so that may be the difference, I'm not sure.

    I guess my main thing now is to find a decent product for my one remaining pc that will encompass all areas expected within a full suite. I was thinking that KIS sounded good and seems they do not use activation schemes, you can buy a license without auto-renew and it has a pretty strong reputation for good protection. I do not know if their firewall and antispyware is as good as their AV so maybe I should be looking at just the KAV and then add spysweeper, etc. individually. I really liked the mcafee personal firewall as a stand alone product to use but it seems they no longer sell it that way. It does appear that things are changing quite a bit in the security software industry and moving more towards all in one from any vendor and the indivdually put together solutions are becoming harder to find or very expensive to do anymore.

    I am going to keep poking around until I find what makes sense for me and now that I have the mcafee I can take some more time to do it.
     
  14. Firecat

    Firecat Registered Member

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    BullGuard does use auto-renew, but it is very clearly stated that you have the option to enable or disable it as you wish. The below quote from the website explains it:

    If you are still concerned about auto-renewal, I would recommend BitDefender Internet Security which does not use auto-renewals at all. All renewals are user-decided and manual.
     
  15. captkirk

    captkirk Registered Member

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    I have a two year license with NIS 2006 which I purchased in Feb '06. I understand that once activated the clock keeps ticking. For example, if I uninstall in March and reinstall in May, Symantec will delete those days from the license once it detects the gap.

    I've installed and reinstalled NIS '06 at least more than 10 times (as I was testing other suites or just cleaning out the system) and have not had any problems reinstalling the software.

    However, your posts could be a fair warning for me and other NIS users.

    I have a similar argument with XP. I have two purchased licenses of XP. The first copy apparently has exceeded the number of installs. (I hear that that limit is 50).

    Every time I want to clean out my system and do a fresh XP install, I have to call the 800 number (India, of course) and have them give me the a new key each time.

    I once asked if Microsoft could reset my Windows licensed installs as long as I could prove that I'm legit and not a pirate and am installing back on just one computer. But they said that they cannot do that, but you and I both know that they're freakin' Microsoft and they can do anything!

    I'm not sure how many times Atomic Ed has re-installed NIS on his computers, but it was apparently enough times to send up the flags.

    It is a shame that privacy policies get in the way of legit customers. I would imagine, if Symantec realized that they've lost Atomic Ed as a loyal customer, they would make it up to him.

    Not good PR for Symantec, that's for sure!
     
  16. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    Thanks, I must have mis read that part or not seen it. I saw a few blurbs on pages there while poking around and quickly noticed the terms subscritption and auto renew, that was when I somply moved on. So probably my fault for not digging in deeper int their site.

    I actually was considering bitdefender but some mentioned the suite was not that great, although I know the AV is terrific. I purchased a few copies for my father in law last year and it has worked really well for him. So far I am liking this new mcafee I got the other day and been using the site advisor during my searches. It seems to be working decently with not much slowdown even though memory usage seems high for the few components I have loaded on mine. I am just going to keep poking around for my last machine to get something really robust in a suite form of some kind. Heck I would probably grab a copy of NIS 2007 if it wasn't for scamantec's underhanded practices now. I will never buy another thing they ever produce. Been a loyal customer to them since the beginning of time it seems, but they apparantly saw more value in trying to scam me then do the right thing.
     
  17. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    I have had similar issues with activating my XP Pro license so many times it will never activate over the web with my key anymore. I always have to call them everytime I reload it but they never told me there was a finite number of times it could be done. I must have activated my copy well over a hundred or so times already as I had it since the release date now almost 6 years or so ago. I generally go through a dozen or so personal PCs a year, being a systems builder I am always upgrading my own box all the time. Activations and license scams are definately tougher for legit software buyers like myself because of the constant testing, switching and reloading. I do however own retail licenses for XP and not OEM with the exception of the ones that came on my laptops.

    On the scamantec stuff, well I own multiple scamantec products and not just NIS, which I have multiple licenses for as well. My wife's license was reloaded probably close to 10 by now due mostly to corruptions within NIS LU. However on mine, I honestly could not say exactly the number of times I reloaded it. I do know for a fact I never loaded it on more than one computer or anything that would be outside of the eula. Which by the way does not specify a number for the amount of times it can be installed and re installed. Based on the way they acted during my issues over the phone where they, support people, seemed to personally sympathize as we spoke almost as if this is more of an edict coming from the top that they don't necessarily agree with either, but can only repeatedly cite their company policy. Also from my searches on this subject it appears scamantec is doing this same thing more frequently and have even been changing their licensing to only 3 user versions I hear. There is also the fact that they are crying that microsoft is not allowing them access to the vista kernel and there are software locks to prevent products like NIS to function under vista. Very reminiscent of the old Netscape thing many years ago and how microsoft started their efforts of taking over the browser market. It is looking like they may have the same designs for the AV industry, especially with the new one care their producing. Just watch if one care doesn't eventually go to being free.

    So there are definately reasons that could be prompting scamantec to persure additional licensing revenue by deactivating legitimate ones and then offering to sell the person more. They even had the nerve to include a direct link to their store checkout for another license purchase when I still had over 400+ days left on the one they conveniently deactivated while trying to hide behind justification using areas of the EULA to support it. However when I would not back down on this and challenged them to show me where in their eula did it state the number of times it could be installed as well as the fact that I would be reporting their scheme to the BBB, Trade commison, etc, did they all of a sudden refund my purchase. It was clear to me without doubt of exactly what they are up to with all of this. Also when I made comments such as take a look at my purchase history and see that I have already bought multiple 2 year liecense for other machines as well as other products. The support person knew that I knew he believed me but had his hands tied with their corporate edict on this scam.

    In the end they are now an unethical company who seem to be trying to boost revenue as quickly as possible, maybe in anticipation of the probable upcoming battle with microsoft on the whole vista thing. Keep in mind these are simply my views after going through what I just did with them and other reasons could also be at hand, but one thing is sure, they are unethical now whatever their core motives may be and can scam your valid license away from you on their whim for whatever reason they want to. Certainly not a company I will ever do business with again, but the choice is yours on whether you think their products are worth the scams they can use on you if they decide to.
     
  18. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    Atomic_Ed,

    The hole in your argument is that, if they did this, I can't imagine most peoples reaction being any different than your own - either request a refund or toss the refund and simply walk to a competitor. The problem with this is that it shows up on the bottom line within one product cycle.

    Blue
     
  19. captkirk

    captkirk Registered Member

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    We all owe this to Mr. Gates. Not to defend Microsoft, but Gates had the foresight to not sell his work outright, but to license it to IBM. Now the man is a multi-billionaire. Can you imagine what his worth would be if he were ever able to recoup money lost on counterfeiters and bootleggers?

    I’ve read about the McAfee lawsuit as well, but let’s face it; Microsoft has never been a proponent of open code. Vista’s kernel is property of Microsoft. There’s no ‘public domain’ case here.

    A dozen computers a year? With all due respect, if you are going through that many installs don’t you think Symantec is justified in raising the flag on you?

    Although, I agree Symantec should not shut you down if your license is still in effect, and should have a similar scheme that Microsoft has. After all, we’ve chosen their product to protect our computers and even if there is a license dispute, it should still install and protect our computers.

    Lets face it, the inconvenience of dialing a (toll free) number and taking the time to fill in a new key over the phone should be worth the over 100 installs that you claim you’ve made with one purchase of the XP license since 2001. Symantec should have a similar option to allow us to continue to use their products if we can justify that our multiple installs are legit.

    And I understand that inactivated Vista installs will only give you one hour of internet a day, but it WILL NOT shut down your operating system locally. But I’ve also heard that MS was considering charging an annual license renewal on Vista (not just One Care). But I think they’ve abandoned that idea.

    Symantec should rethink their policy and not abandon their ‘legitimate’ customers.
     
  20. noway

    noway Registered Member

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    The firewalls in McAfee, Kaspersky, NIS2007 are not the best IMHO. That's why I would not recommend a suite. Better to get separate firewall and anti-virus.

    Firewall doesn't need a "subscription" per se so why would anyone want to be tied into one by having it bundled with an antivirus? Some of the firewalls with good long-term reliability records are kerio 2.1.5, Zonealarm Free 4.5.594 and Zonealarm Free 6.1.744.001. All free.

    Antivirus DOES need regular updates so either pay for the one you like or use a free one.

    Skip all the activation crap. It's no wonder many customers have moved to either freeware or "the dark side" and get their software/updates for free forever.

    Speaking of activation, if you use the Symantec stuff and you load the software while disconnected from the internet and wait to be prompted for "activate by phone" and when you dial the number and they tell you your activation key and you enter it into the box and write it down somewhere why would anyone ever need to phone them again to reactivate it unless they forgot to save their product key and the activation key they got by phone? Maybe I'm missing something...
     
  21. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean by saying "A dozen computers a year? With all due respect, if you are going through that many installs don’t you think Symantec is justified in raising the flag on you?"
    I don't see how the amount of times I decide to install / uninstall any product I bought a 2 year license on, and without doing anything wrong like running multiple instances on different computers at the same time or something, has anything to do with the manufacturer disabling the product like that. Heck if it were my hobby to reload my computer daily or 365 times a year and not be doing anything more then running my legitimate license on a single computer would be of any concern to them at all. I am simply using what I paid for legitimately. If simply using a product you bought more than a typical person might would send up any red flags then I guess I just don't get it. Also as I mentioned before, when I challenged them to prove to me where I was doing anything wrong with my license, they could not. You know why, because I did nothing wrong. They knew, I knew it and they knew that I knew that they knew it, but anytime our conversations hit an empass where it was obvious I did nothing wrong, they could only cite their company policy. As I said before some of their support people were sympathetic, but it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this is nothing more than a way to perpetuate further license sales from people they already know are willing to pay them for their products. To me this is not only unethical to the extreme but also a practice that will easily turn a long time paying customer into someone like me who would rather eat their own socks then ever buy another product from them, I sure hope that attempted scam against me by scamantec was worth their effort and the gamble in losing my business. If their goal was trying to lose my business then they won.

    Anyhow, anyone that wants to take the effort to search on this subject will see I am certainly not by any means the only one they were doing this to. I found quite a bit on their tactics against the customer.

    In the end it is up to everyone to decide whether they want to buy their products or not. I am not trying to convince anyone to not buy them, only to inform them of my experiences so with that data they can make whatever decision they feel is of value to them. I have always said that I felt their products are decent but it is the company I no longer trust at all.

    So people can buy or not buy, it is their choice, I just feel it is of value to let others know what happened to me, thats all.
     
  22. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    Yes, I pondered that same thing myself as to why they would risk drop in sales and loss of customers. But since it just did not make any sense and it was clearly obvious what they were doing, I have to assume it is what they are doing even though in the long run it makes no sense. My guess would be some executive looking for a short term boost in revenue to possibly increase their bonus or stock options and run. I mentioned a few of my theories as to why they might be doing it and while I can not be certain of their core motives, I do know that the way they treated me and as much opposition and time as I had to put into getting a refund that the average person will most likely just give in and buy another license or move on. In my case I took my refund and moved on to mcafee. Runs great so far, has good detection rates in recent tests, does not use activation or scams to perpetuate further license sales and was actually alot cheaper.

    At this point I already know I am done with scamantec so I could care less what they try next, I just felt there was / is value in sharing my experiences with them here with the other users. People are pretty sharp in these forums and can easily decide for themselves what they want to buy. I just know if it were me browsing here and did not know about what scamantec is currently doing, I would have found value personally in reading the posts here.
     
  23. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    I believe the crux of this whole problem is that you had it installed on more than one computer possibly not two at a time but more than one computer. and with any product that has to be activated such as windows and symantec products they can never be installed on more than one computer, the one it was activated on. even if it was not installed on the activated computer and was installed on another computer, that is against the EULA. It can only be installed on the original computer it was activated on. And I believe their belief is that it was being used on more than one computer which would lead them to believe that it was being pirated. *Under this scenario I can't blame them since they are the most pirated software on the planet even more so than windows and they are trying to protect their bottom line like anyone else would. I have dealt with Symantec several times before and once you do get hold ofthem they are usually fairly understanding. So they must be sure in their minds that they are right. I think them giving a refund was beyond what they were required to do. Especially with what they must think was going on.
     
  24. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Registered Member

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    I did not notice anywhere that you can only have it on the literal computer it was installed on. That would be crazy since many variables could occur to prevent that. Such as some steals your computer, it gets damaged or fails completely, you upgrade it to a better model, your hard drive dies on you, you have both a desktop and a laptop and decide to remove the av from the desktop and run linux and install it on your laptop. The possibilities are endless really.

    I have to respectfully disagree with you on the not blaming them for trying to protec their bottom line. I also don't blame them for trying to protec it, but it is not my responsibility to do that for them by sacrificing my legitimate usage just because they might suspect I might be doing something outside the license. Thats silly to me. Can you imagine going to the drug store to pick up a prescription that your doctor gave you, but because you had been sick more times than usualy that year, the pharmacist says sorry we can't give you this medicine because we feel you might be turning around and reselling it on the street or something. Thats just nuts. I dislike piracy and illegal activities as much as the next honest person but by companies trying to implement protection technologies that clearly have no mechanisms in place at all to validate assumptions, is not the answer. Where does the legitimate consumer get protected in all of this? You know the ones that because of them scamantec is in business. Where does the human element come into play here? You know like after explaination and asking to look at the customer's license history and loyalty. Should be easy for them to see I bought licenses for my other computers as well that would be running simultaneously. You know why, because they don't want to know, this I am sure of.

    Anyway, I do blame them 100% for their methods and whether someone agrees with me or not is their perrogitive. I know what I went through with them and they knew it too. I am not stupid and can realize something as crazy as this was for what it is. As I said, sharing my experience with this is all I was trying to do, not convince anyone to change what their doing.

    In the end, any company that does not care about its customers will eventually lose them.
     
  25. bigc73542

    bigc73542 Retired Moderator

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    I fully understand your frustration. But just try to install a copy of windows on more than one computer and then try to activate it. symantec is just doing the same thing. I have had NIS 2006 uninstalled and reinstalled at least twenty times with no problems. But it was always on the same computer it was activated on.
     
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