hal.dll missing AGAIN

Bill, I should have mentioned that you see nothing with fdisk /mbr. It just goes back to the A prompt.

Now we have "missing operating system". When will these error messages cease? Everything look OK in the BIOS?

If only you had Partition Magic. This error message is usually due to the OS not being set Active and PM would tell you if this was the case.

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=270

Bill, we are just chasing one error after another. Would you like to try it my way? Start again from Windows and make an image of the C drive partition, (not the whole drive) writing it to the external HD. Install the SATA HD and delete all partitions. Then create a Primary partition on the SATA HD, say 70 GB as a test, NTFS (quick format). Remove the Seagate. Then restore to this partition as we have discussed. Don't worry about the MBR as the SATA HD already has a generic MBR which isn't deleted by deleting the partitions. If it boots with the hal.dll error you are looking good. Then use editBINI.

 

Bill, just one thing for you to try before you delete the partitions on the SATA HD. Boot to the True Image CD. Click Backup, Next, select "The entire contents or individual partitions", Next.
On the Partition Selection window look at your C drive. In the Flags column, does it say "Pri,Act"? Is the Capacity and Used space what you expect it to be?

This will help us understand whether the partition has been marked Active or not. Could help later.

This must be intensely frustrating for you but I'd like to see you overcome this problem.

 

Thank you Brian, I will try what you say when I get home from work today.
Bill

 

Hi Brian, another work day is ended as far as my day job anyway. Now it's time to start again on my night job, which is trying to get Acronis software to restore images it has made -- like it is supposed to do without any trouble!

I checked the hard drives like you said. On the primary Seagate boot drive, the capacity and size are just what I would expect, and this drive is labeled "Pri,Act" while the recovery partition is labeled "Pri". It appears that the copy of the Seagate C: on the Western Digital is labeled exactly the same, and the size is as I would expect. Also, the drives labeled "Pri,Act" also seem to have a small red indicator on the icon of the drive, while the recovery partition icons have a little green indicator on them, whatever that might mean.

I was about to start on an attempt at your last directions. But I thought I would recap my last futile attempts with the Win98 boot disk, because I don't think I wrote about that yet. Although I was very tired by then in my memory does not seem sharp about the events. But as best I can remember, after the last restore I booted in got the usual "MBR error -- press a key". I pressed a key got the message about "insert system disk". Instead, I inserted the Win98 boot disk, and clicked enter. Amazingly, the boot disks started up and did some analyzing on my hard drive. I can't quite remember I think it told me something about some problems with the files and instructed me that I might want to make some partitions, and said something about running FDISK. Instead, I typed fdisk /MBR. It did it's thing for awhile, went back to the A: prompt. then I retarted, and it gave me the message that there was no operating system. Most likely, the above is not precisely correct, but that's more or less how it went. And that's where I quit for the night.

Interestingly, at the moment I am booted to the original Seagate drive with the Western Digital drives also connected. When I look at these drives, all the files seem to be there and they are in total the same size as my Seagate C:, or very close. Although there seems to be an extra copy of this C: on the Western Digital. I can't imagine how that happened. One of these is the exact same size (18.1 GB) as the working Seagate, and the other is just slightly larger (18.5 GB). But since I have made several images while trying to fool all of this, one of these may have been made from one image and one from the other. It appears that everything did not get deleted from the Western Digital when I "deleted partitions". But I wonder why the Win98 boot disk gave me an answer about "no operating system" when they're certainly appears to be in operating system -- actually two of them because of the extra copy -- when I look at these files in Windows Explorer from the operating in functioning original Seagate? This whole experience is certainly full of mystery to me.

Here is something strange to me. When I look at these drives under disk management, and look under "status", my C: Seagate shows "healthy (system)". One of the erroneous copies on the Western Digital shows as "healthy" while the other shows "healthy (active)". Now I'm wondering why the working Seagate does not show as "active", but only shows as "system"? I thought when I was doing the restoration of the Seagate C:, I was choosing "active". And indeed, one of the copies is active. Could this be the source of my problems? But I don't know how to do it any differently, because I don't think "system" was a choice during restore, was it? I remember "active/logical/primary (maybe?)", but I don't remember system. Oh well, I'm just confusing myself right now. I'm fixing to, as you say "try it your way", make an image of the Seagate C: (I guess with the Seagate only connected to the computer), then hook up the Western Digital SATA and delete all partitions. Then create a primary partition on the SATA. Then try to restore to that. You say not to worry about the MBR, because the Western Digital will have one already that would not have been removed by deleting partitions. Is it possible that I could have damaged this Western Digital MBR by all of this recovery attempt that I didn't doing, and all of this fdisk /MBR business??

You sure are right about how frustrating this is, and pretty exhausting also. I can't really imagine what is motivating me to keep on trying with this Acronis restore. I sure do appreciate the help you've tried to give me. Acronis remains completely silent -- I thought they monitored these boards and gave official help every now and then? Maybe they think you're doing as good a job as they could, so why should they bother! They need to have you (and a few others at this forum) on their payroll if they don't already!

Bill

 

Bill, thanks for all that detail. I think starting again is appropriate and you have outlined that you understand what is intended.

"Missing Operating System" is an error generated by the MBR and the causes are outlined in that TeraByte link. Having two OS on the HD is confusing and hard to explain but obviously something went wrong.

My Disk Management shows the C: drive as Healthy (System). Same as yours. I see no mention of Active.

Although I don't get concerned about restoring the MBR you could do so if you like. I was trying to keep it simple. Acronis TI doesn't restore the old Master Partition Table to the new HD so you shouldn't do any harm.

Keep asking questions. I'm happy to stay with this until the end.

 

Regarding what I wrote about the functioning Seagate C: not being marked as "active" but instead being marked as "system". I believe I noticed that by right clicking on this drive I had the option to set it as "active". Would this be something I should do, and if so should it be done before imaging? Since I have been selecting "active" for restoration purposes and Acronis?
Bill

 

You will notice that "Mark partition as active" is greyed out. If you are in WinXP it is already active. No, you don't need to make any changes to your Seagate partitions.

 

Well, since yours is marked the same as mine, and so is my laptop, I better just leave it alone and not set it as "active". Actually, that option is not even available on the system drive.
Bill

 

That's OK . It already is Active.

 

Well Brian, nothing has changed. I followed your exact scenario, plus a few variations to boot (so to speak). I have done several restores tonight, after making several new images and connecting and disconnecting various drives. Same old message "Master boot record error -- press a key". The last one I just did consisted of
1: running Acronis within Windows with only the Seagate connected to image the C: on the Seagate.
2: reconnecting the Western Digital SATA while rebooting to Windows in the Seagate, going to disk management, deleting all partitions on the Western Digital and then formatting a primary partition on the Western Digital for 70 GB.
3: shutting down Windows and disconnecting the Seagate and rebooting in the Acronis boot disk CD.
4: within the Acronis recovery CD, selecting the recently made image from the external hard drive and restoring it and the MBR to the Western Digital disk, making it an active partition. I also tried within Windows several times just to avoid having to connect and disconnect hard drives so many times. I also restored once without restoring the MBR. This got me a long error message which was slightly different than the Master boot record error message.

Now the only way I can get back to the Hal .dll error message is if I do all of the above but with the Seagate attached/connected, and then after selecting restore MBR, when at the next screen when it asks me "select drive disk MBR you want to recover" -- -- then if I select the Seagate it says of the Western Digital (if I'm remembering correctly) I will get the Hal .dll message instead of the "master boot record error" message. Do you think I should do this? I believe you said once we got to the Hal .dll message we could run editbini. Of course, this seems crazy because the whole idea is to be able to restore in a situation where the Seagate would be a dead drive, and you wouldn't be able to select it then, but you would only be able to select the Western Digital.

But other than that possibility, I'm out of ideas and about ready to give up, unless you have some other ideas. Since it looks like Acronis is never going to comment on this thread, I guess I could start another thread entitled "Acronis please help -- Hal .dll/ MBR errors" in hopes that they would respond. Or I suppose there is a way to actually post a request to Acronis technical support. But I don't know if it's worth the trouble trying.

Anyway, unless you got a new idea, I don't know where else to go. It's beginning to look like I won't be doing any image restoration by way of Acronis. Which is really a shame.
Thanks again
Bill

PS: current error message -- Master boot record error -- press a key
2: disk boot failure, insert system disk and press enter (Win98 disk inserted by me and enter pressed)
3: Windows 98 has detected that drive see does not contain a valid fat or FAT32 partition. There are several possible causes. 1: the drive may need to be partition. To create a partition on the drive run FDISK 2: you may be using third-party disk partitioning software.................. (some more info)..........
3: viruses..........................
the diagnostic tools were successfully loaded to drive c

 

You have had a busy night. I'm starting to think this is a BIOS problem. Is the SATA HD connected to SATA port 0 and showing in the BIOS? Are all other SATA ports turned OFF in the BIOS. I'd also turn OFF both primary IDE drives. Does that make a difference?

Do you have (or can borrow) an IDE HD to use instead of the SATA drive as a test?

This is just a standard message when the floppy is dealing with a NTFS OS.

That's correct.

 

Yes, I have also started to suspect the bios. The reason is I have been unable to find anything about the SATA drive in the bios. This is an older system (about three years old) that did not have SATA support built-in. So I had to add a Promise PCI SATA control card. So when I look on the main screen of the Phoenix bios, I see that the primary master is the Seagate drive, the primary slave is "none" and then the other drives listed are CD drives. The only place in the bios where I can find anything about the SATA is when I go over to boot information, then go down to "boot device priority", then go down to "hard disk boot priority" and then I will see two choices listed 1: the primary master Seagate and 2: bootable add-in cards.

Also, when I am booting up after leaving the bios, the first screen I see after the Hewlett-Packard blue screen (the first screen that appears and where you have a chance to select the bios) and before the black screen where I can choose Windows XP or the recovery console, is a black screen reporting data on the Promise SATA control card. So there is SATA related info on that screen, and information about bootable add-in cards in the bios. Just to make sure, if I disconnect the Western Digital, then there is no option for "bootable add-in cards" in the bios. But nowhere in the bios that I've been able to find so far, is there any mention of the Western Digital drive or a SATA drive, only the "bootable add-in cards".

But, I can certainly see the Western Digital drive in Windows Explorer or in disk management, where it reports that everything is okay on the Western Digital drive, that it is an active drive. I also looked at the WD drive in Western Digital data lifeguard tools software that came with the drive, and it can see the drive and reports that it is "bootable"! Hah!!! More correct information, except of course it won't boot! Goodnight, I'm going to bed!
Bill

 

The only hard drive of any kind that I can use in order to test if it is a SATA problem, is my original 40 GB hard drive that I originally purchased the Seagate and a few months ago, in order to replace the Western Digital. But this is something to consider. I never did replace the data on that drive, and have been keeping it in reserve for backup, mainly because in the original clones that I'm made of it, I could not get the recovery console to work. But on the current Seagate disk, the recovery console seems to work okay, and I guess I really don't need to keep that data on the older Western Digital as a security blanket. Maybe out think about trying that tomorrow, since it is a PATA drive rather than a SATA.
Bill

 

Bill, I have no experience with SATA add-in cards so I can't help I'm afraid. My SATA ports are on the motherboard and that is all I understand.

Do you have a bootable WinXP CD so that you can enter the Recovery Console with the SATA HD in place and do "fixboot". It's worth trying I guess and if we don't try it will be brought up later. Fixboot writes a new bootsector on the C drive partition. It's not a MBR tool. I recall that you may not have a WinXP CD.

But you were able to boot from that SATA drive in the past after the WD "clone". Is that correct? The SATA drive has booted as the only HD in the computer? If so it should do it again but it isn't booting.

Could you try turning OFF both drives on the Primary IDE channel. Does your BIOS look like this?

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim4550/syssetup.htm#1097056

Here I'd have Primary drive 0 and Primary drive 1 set to OFF.

Don't let the computer boot on its own. Press F12 (or your key) to get into the boot menu and choose the bootable add-in card.

Try the above first but if you have no success then consider restoring your image to the empty 40 GB Seagate IDE HD. You could transfer the data to your external HD before deleting the partitions. I'd defragment the C drive on your main Seagate HD first, to shift all the data to the start of the partition so that there is a better chance that the image of the 60 GB partition will fit on the 40 GB partition. You only have 20 GB of data but if it's spread across the whole partition then it may not fit on the 40 GB HD. It would be just our luck. It would certainly be encouraging if the Seagate 40 GB HD booted after restoring the image. Seeing that hal.dll error again would be a blessing. We expect that error.

You have tried just about every way to restore that image without success and I now have my doubts it's a TI problem. Properly booting the SATA HD is now the challenge.

 

Brian, I have no bootable Win XP CD, only the recovery console that is on a partition of the hard drive. This has always been a very difficult problem for me when any kind of problem comes up. But I'm stuck with it.

Yes, I have been able to "boot from the SATA drive" both after using Western Digital software to "set up new drive as a boot drive", or on another occasion simply using Western Digital's "copy files" software, and also having done and Acronis clone disk. All of this after the first attempt at image restore failed. Any of these other approaches will get this drive up and running just fine, with it appearing absolutely identical to the original drive and functioning apparently identical. It's just during the restore of images that it's a complete no go.

I'll have to shut down the computer and go look at the bios, because I'm not certain which drives it shows as being turned on or off. Though I'm pretty positive that the SATA drives don't show in that stage of the bios, like I mentioned before. Only IDE drives show. But, of course, even these drives don't show in the bios if I tried to start up with the Seagate disconnected and only the Western Digital SATA connected. Then I'm pretty sure in that section of the bios that everything either is turned off or does not show at all. But maybe I'll play around with that here in just a minute.

Right, I haven't been letting the computer boot by itself, I always go into the bios and if both hard drives are connected, make sure the one I want booting is selected as number one. Which means if I'm trying to boot the Western Digital I select "bootable add-in cards" or what ever it says that is referring to the SATA 300 PCI control card. Of course, once again, if I had disconnected the Seagate, all that shows at this stage is the PCI control card, and the primary Seagate does not even show.

Much like you, though, I am more and more starting to suspect that it's something related to the SATA2 drive or more likely the SATA2 (300 GB/s) PCI control card.



So, I hope to have time to play with the spare internal Western Digital 40 Gigabyte Drive (PATA) to see if I can restore to it. But my memories are back in May it was the Seagate (my main boot drive now) that I was unable to get to boot when trying to restore to it from DVDs. The only way I ever got an image to restore to the Seagate was to restore it from the original INTERNAL 40 GB Western Digital. Of course, DVDs are different than external hard drives, so it might work.

If it does work with the PATA drive, I'm still in a bit of a mess. Because that just means that I purchased a 250 GB SATA 2 drive for no reason, since it was primarily purchased for the purpose of restoring images to. Although I suppose I could clone to it, use it as the main drive and make images FROM it and restore to the Seagate PATA drive, and then clone from that to the SATA drive. But that would be a bunch of added complication that I wasn't expecting when making these purchases.

I'm curious, from what you have observed, is the problem I'm having with Acronis a rare problem? Or is it something (like so many other things that I see on the forum) a rather common occurrence? Anyway, I'll so have a support e-mail into Acronis to see if they have an opinion on this.

Bill

 

I just restarted and went to the bios, and when both the Western Digital and the Seagate connected, and of course the Seagate functioning as a system boot drive, at the Main bios screen it shows that the primary master is the Seagate drive, the primary slave is shown as none, and the secondary master and slave are the DVD drives. When I have any of these drives highlighted and press enter, I get it further screen which tells me that IDE HDD autodetection it says "press enter", which then "detected hard drives". I don't see anything changed in that. Then after that it has IDE primary master = auto and access mode also = auto.

I haven't checked this yet with the Seagate disconnected, but I'm pretty sure then it would simply show that the primary master was none, just like it does right now for the primary slave.

 

I've had problems with SATA from the get go, and, you may be on to something here. I went thru 3 SATA controller cards, and several versions of their drivers, and a BIOS upgrade, just to get things sort of working on my system, with a motherboard that was designed 3 years ago.

I haven't read all the details of this thread, but admire yours and Brian's tenacity! A record of what many of us go thru on these all nighters, just to try to get hard drives to boot under TI.

Plextor, who makes my SATA DVD drive, among others, recommends not using the SATA drivers that come with the motherboard chipset - in my case, for the nVIDIA nForce 2 chipset, but, instead, using Microsoft's IDE drivers (which also control SATA). I use an Adaptec PCI SATA card, which has turned out to be one that works on my system (my mainboard only has 2 SATA 1 ports, that were problematic with nVidia drivers, and I have 4 SATA devices). You could try different SATA controller cards, or see if there is an upgrade available for yours, or, even, a downgrade (the latest, screaming fast drivers are not always the most reliable for making disk Images with TI).

If you order your SATA card from Newegg, and it doesn't work, you can RMA it. Or, buy from a local computer retailer, who will generally give you a few weeks to try it out on your system. JUst an FYI, most likely, perhaps even by design - since AFAIK PCI doesn't support nearly SATA2 speed, I doubt that your PCI SATA card runs drives at SATA2 speeds. Be sure to jumper your drive to SATA 1, also, for your best shot at success.

Booting is tricky, when using SATA controller cards, as the boot order in BIOS changes regularly, and you'll need to have the upper hand. Which I realize is more easily said than done. Take lots of notes, so you'll be able to replicate what works...as the recipe may be difficult or impossible to remember.

Good luck!

 

The Promise card is often identified in the bios as SCSI. You might try setting the bios to boot from SCSI first if it's available.

 

Thanks for that info, Chris. I was aware of the speed limitations of PCI with SATA, although Promise brand ( I did get it from Newegg) CLAIMS 266 GB/s with PCI 266Mhz, which is what I have been told mine is.

Anyway, so you think I might should jumper my WD 300 down to SATA 1? That would be ok on a SATA 2 controller, or would I have to change something on that card also? You seem to feel this combo(SATA2 on PCI) could possibly contribute to this restore problem? Because when I get the disk running with an Acronis clone or a WD "all files copy", the disk seems then to run right snappy. Though I realize that doesn't mean SATA2 might not be messing up restores.
Bill

 

Thanks, I'll look for that! Although, what I see now is "bootable add in cards" or something very much like that, under hard drive boot priority.
Bill

 

Bill,

Well, I just went and looked, and I stand corrected. Promise does make a PCI SATA 300 controller card. Shows what a few months can do. And, of course, a few more dollars.

Looking at the reviews on Newegg, one user suggests that his Promise card did make finding the drives after a restore difficult. Perhpas that a clue to point you toward the missing elements here. Some controller cards get on fine with some mainboards, others don't. Same for hard drives...every chipset has its own way of implementing SATA...and, the one on your hard drive may or may not be compatible with the one on your controller card. A SATA PCI 300 controller card is likely looking for a screaming fast, recent SATA drive. How old is your drive?

Years ago, I had a PC built for photo editing, and picked out a very nice Number 9 video card, to run on my ASUS mainboard, with SCSI ultra-wide HDs. Even the pros at Hard Drives NW couldn't get that video card to boot. I ended up spending half as much for a video card that worked. Hence, the only reason I can see for buying off the shelf, configured PCs. At least the components work together, on the test machine, under optimal conditions, before the user installs software, drivers, and external HDs, or SATA controller cards with their own BIOS routines.

Could you provide the model numbers of your SATA drive, SATA controller card, mainboard, etc.? Or direct me to the post with that information? I won't be nearly as active a helper as Brian. But, these sorts of challenges do need to be bested. Which OS are you using? BIOS? etc.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16816102062&ATT=16-102-062&CMP=OTC-B1zrat3

 

Sure Chris, I'll give it a shot. Anything that might help another volunteer who's trying to help get me out of my mess!

Here is a link describing the new WD HD:
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=133

Here is the Newegg link:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16816102064

Here is the one direct from Promise:

http://www.promise.com/product/product_detail_eng.asp?segment=Non-RAID HBAs&product_id=138

I'm also looking at the promise website where they have driver updates. The answer might lie there, with the SATA drivers. But I'm a little hesitant, not wanting to make matters worse. Of course, regarding restoration of images, how much worse could it be? I shouldn't even asked that question -- it can always be worse!

I am also just about to attempt an experimental restoration to a PATA hard drive, the 40 GB Western Digital that came on this computer when I got it several years ago. I don't have much faith in that working however, if by some fluke it does work, it will probably answer the question of how much SATA is contributing to these problems. Like I said previously, since I got this software last May, I've only pulled off one (out of must be 50 attempts) successful restoration. And that involved restoring from an archive on the 40 GB Western Digital internal drive to the new Seagate internal drive. That one time worked. All other attempts either from DVDs or now from the external hard drive (Western Digital non-SATA My Book) had been total failures resulting in MBR error messages or Hal .dll error messages.

Bill

 

On my system, the bootable add in card entry remains, whether or not I am using a PCI SATA controller card, and does not point to the SATA controller card. If I have SATA HDs conected to my Adaptec PCI SATA card, they show up in my BIOS Boot order separately, as SCSI 0 & SCSI 1. If I want to boot from a HD on my PCI Sata card, I select SCSI 0.

Your Promise card may have its own BIOS routines. And, should allow you to access them in the second stage of the Boot process. Does your Promise card offer BIOS updates, or, does it have Read Only memory on the card, as mine does? Earlier versions of this Adaptec card came with flashable BIOS. Since, as in your case, they don't all work well in every configuration.

I'd search for forums discussing your Promise card, and see if anyone has suggestions for you...

 

Bingo! Have you read the reviews on Newegg of your Promise SATA card? Seems like many are having all sorts of difficulties with it. So, you aren't alone.

I'd try another card. Adaptec works fine, here. These things are hit and miss, as I said earlier.

Your comments about narrowing down the problem point out the best way to get to the bottom of this. Take SATA out of the equation. Take USB out of the equation. Use only Microsoft certified IDE drivers on your mainboard. Don't use USB Hubs, or printers, or anything else. Then, add devices back, one at a time, to see what is causing the rapids to form. If there's whitewater, it's pretty hard to see thru it to find the obstruction.

Regards

 

Your Bingo! Maybe correct, and I can only hope so. Although it's going to mean having to pull the control card out and see if new egg will accept it for a full refund a unit where the package has been opened and it has been installed. I've never dealt with them before on returns. Also, before I do that I'm still going to look to see if there are any further driver upgrades available from the promise website. Lord knows Brian seems to have exhausted every possibility from a non-SATA control card standpoint. I believe once we got to that, which he thought might be the problem, he said he didn't have much experience with those and didn't have much to offer as far as solving problems with them.

I'm just about to find out if restore will work on the old PATA drive, it has about four minutes to go on the restore. I know one thing, it's taking about twice as long to accomplish the restore to this drive than it did to the SATA drive. Will shortly see if it works.

I had read some of the reviews on the controller card, but I thought most of the negatives dealt with the difficulty of installing the drivers off of a floppy disk which was required. Once I got those installed, everything seemed to be okay. Except, of course, for Acronis restorations.

Thanks a lot for joining in the hunt for solutions to the mystery.
Bill