A Mix of Security qs - your advice suggesions appreciated please

Hi I am a newbie here and having had such AMAZING support from the Acronis forum here thought I would try Security too ..

I was not sure where to post this - as it is some firewall, some antivirus some antispyware and some security in general...

Firstly I want to point out I am a newbie and not a techie as you will no doubt realise when you read this - ther will probably be a fair bit of head thumping ( D'oh) and head shaking on reading my set up... hopefully with your help I can try and sort things out and improve on our setup....

Ok so I am a home user using a Dell PC running WinXp SP2 connected to a Actiontec Wireless Router connected to an ADSL " Cable modem/settopbox" ..( we Live in UK)

I am running Norton "Internet Security, Firewall, Antispam, Antivirus" all current..

Until a few days ago I was sitting "happily" behind my PC never having had Virus or Adware/Malware probs and all was good... Admittedly my PC had been getting slower and slower but despite scanning with the Antivirus and Antispyware software tools revealed nothing... Tools are ( Spysweeper, Adaware, Spybot, Spyware Doctor, Spysubtract)...

I stumbled across a doc online somewhere of someone having had the experience of their Anti spyware tools looking like they were updating the defintions properly ( showing the image of the progressing bar etc) but when checked the update dates had NOT changed .. The reason being spyware had disconnected their firewall settings....

Thinking that could not be me coz mine seemed to be running & updating quite happily thought I would just have a look to be sure...

I discovered that ALL my Anti Spyware Firewall Programm Internet Access settings in NIS had been changed to "blocked" presumably by the spyware and the gates were opened literally flooding my PC with nasties... Thing is NIS had not notified me to there being a problem..and was givng the illusion of all being OK and enabled and running quite happily...

Once I re permitted the firewall access Spysweeper went NUTS all sorts of alerts crammed onto the screen and after scanning again in safe mode oh my god the amount of problems it found was scarey not one or 2 but 100s and 100s literally...

I set about researching how to remove them etc .. and discoverd forums like these ....That was a week ago...

Finally after a week of Scanning, cleaning, fixing installing new spyware software running online scans sending off HJT logs etc etc I am delighted to say I have had several CLEAN reports... though call me paranoid I am gonna run a few more scans and whizz off another HJT log to be sure..

NOW I have had all sorts of tut tut comments in emails and conversations " with people saying you should not be using Norton products surely you know they are useless, not secure etc etc " but I have to say my approach was the "proof is in the pudding" and prior to this all had seemingly been fine...so we felt Norton was doing its job nicely...

Can someone please suggest a solution that would suit us here at home, I have read and heard so much about products like Zone Alarm and others etc but I must admit it all gets a bit mindboggling..PLUS I have sene some horros sotries about peoepl trying to get Norton OFF of their PCs , which is a bit concerning too!

I have also learnt how unsecure IE is and that I should be considering other browsers lie Firefox, Mozilla , Opera etc A dumb q maybe but if I were to switch to one of these brwsers can I still use my favourites from IE..

I know I am not after Rocket science at all but liek many I just to feel safe and protect us as much as possible to prevent being back in the situation I have just come from..

We have also had recommended "Panda Titanium 2006 Antivirus + Antispyware " as being a complete solution ....anyone use this have any cooments good or bad?

Wellw e have learnt a LOT this past week or so and are now activly looking at buying Acronis True Image9 and a HDD so if all else fails and we end up in this situation again we can just "fall back" to a previosly backed up image of our System... That has to be so much easier, quicker and less stressful than this past week has been ...

I loo forward to your replies
tamba1

 

Welcome to Wilders.......

Sure hope you took care of System Restore on your computer when you were cleaning out those bugs......otherwise, you could just re-install them if you did a Restore.

Norton is not a bad anti virus.....no, its not what I use but there are many I know who do use Norton successfully.
The thing most Users fail to realize is how easy it is in some cases to dis-able anti virus, anti trojan, and firewalls..........many people totally refuse to even consider that a firewall can be dis-abled.........an its not my way to waste time commenting on their comments.
Layered security is the best way to go imo.........File Protection is a must have on my computers....protect the programs that protect the computer.....if you can not afford to purchase a File Protection program you can consider other programs such as WIN PATROL.........(just one of several)
You should also consider programs such as SPYWAREBLASER and MRUBLASTER.....(freeware)
Firewalls are not that complicated these days.....you can ask in the Firewall Forum here at the forum for advice.......an expect lots of comments.........but go for the one that best suits you computer knowledge......don't try to impress anyone....ego's do not protect computers.
Adaware and Sptbot are very good anti-spyware programs.....you can install both on the same computer........an if you need a good trojan scanner EWIDO is a nice program for that purpose......(forum here at this forum)
The programs mentioned are "set-and-forget" programs that suits the entire family ....
Script Defender is a nice "script detector" an free as well.

Others will no doubt offer you their suggestions. Best of luck an nice having met you.


Regards

Snowie The Snowman

 

TYPO CORRECTION:



should read: SPYBOT



****Adaware and Sptbot are very good anti-spyware programs*****

 

I have tried Panda and would not recomend it - too many crashes thta left the machine unprotected.

Like othere I don't use Norton myself but I maintain it on my Father's machine because he is comfortable with it. He uses ZoneAlarm Pro with it which works out very well.


Of the all in one suites I think I'd go for F-secure if you want to change - there is a 30 day version. Norton have a manaul removal tool on the web stite - sym
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nav.nsf/docid/2001092114452606

This has always done the trick for me

But why not add some extra free back up apps

On-demand
Spybot S&D
Ewido anti-trojan
A2 anti-trojan
BitDefender

Or some paid extras

If you want to try something a bit more complicated Process Guard or AppDfender 0r DEfenseWall are all excellent products



I use Acronis True Image an think that is just great but - depending on what your looking for Raxco First DEfence ISR might be a better option for sys recovery.

 

As for firewall, I would personally suggest Zonealarm because of how simple it is to use. Install, progam wants access, ask yourself "do you want this program to connect to internet?", select answer.

As for antivirus, a freebie would be something like Avast, which protects quite a few members in this forum. If you want something paid, I think someone else in this forum could guide you along those lines. Something like NOD32 or Kas would be top of the line protection as many will tell you, but a bit difficult to figure out, as they require a bit of tinkering. :T

As for antispyware, you can stick with Spysweeper [4.5 I am presuming], as to I find it to be adequate protection against most spyware.

You might want to look into some sort of antimalware, such as Ewido. They offer a free version, that just does scanning. I find it to be useful for the most part.

Maybe even some sort of HIPS if you really want to get things rolling and complicated. But they would definately keep those nasty-ware from doing things like disabling your antivirus/antispyware tools. But figuring out each prompt may be a pain. Maybe something like Prevx ABC may be something in this area because of it's automated process.

As for switching browsers, yes Firefox and Opera both should have a feature to import your favorites from IE. But if you really dont' want to switch, I can only suggest something like Maxathon that makes IE slightly safer, although not by much.

And lastly, I have not used Panda, but I have read it to be very heavy on the resources, which may not be a good thing. Though, you might find a few advocates, though most here would probably advise to stay away from the suites and go for something layered. It's all about personal preference really.

Hope that helps some.

 

Search the symantec site for a removal tool specific to your product. There a few different removal tools on their site. There is only 1 right one for your product. Read the instructions. A good habit at least at first is to print out computer instructions. So when you're in the middle ....

You mention as a backup solution a spare HDD & TI. If you choose a spare HDD (as I do also) I suggest Acronis MigrateEasy. AME is much much easier & dependable imo than TI.

Now a new AV & PF. I think antispam unneccessary, can be filtered at most email client levels now. Imo KAV or NOD32 for AV. If you choose NOD32 (my current choice) use BlackSpear's guide in this forum to set it up. If you don't choose KAV. Firewall hmmm, so many. I used a few. I won't reccommend one. But I will tell you what I'm using for the last 3 months. GhostWall from this forum. GW is freeware. If you decide on GW, read the GW thread I posted in. 1 rule needs to be added to GW out of the box & it's described there. Good luck & welcome. Keep asking questions.

 

If you really have very little experience in security my advise is (and I'm not an expert, but like you at one stage I realized my computer was terribly infected and something had to be done) to dedicate some time regularly to check personally all the parameters running the defenses of your machine.

Reading and keeping yourself informed in this forum will help you enormously in the long run. My feeling is that if NIS was disabled the first thing to do would be to get an application that will stop termination of your security programs: ProcessGuard from DiamondsCS will do just that and I believe this is a feature available in its free version (there are other possibilities of course).

There's a thread from one of the Moderators, Blackspear, which might give you an overall idea about layered defenses setups:

https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=78484

I think it is an excellent guide towards protecting your computer and it gives you several options.

Best of luck.

 

Reply build to everyone re Security

Snowie

YUP I flushed my restore points – thankfully I had read this and did not end up in the loop of the nasties returning on reboot.

You are right about people not considering/accepting Firewalls can be turned off by malware – I have had several teccies argue with me that I MUST HAVE switched off my own settings yeh right! Well again the “proof is in the pudding” and I got burned so I BELIEVE !

File Protection program- hmm is this not something Spysweeper offer , seemingly not hmm ineed to look into this WIN PATROL yes I have heard of that – need to read up on it and see

Sywareblaster yes I have that now too

Hey I could not impress anyone if I tried re all this I am ashamed to say have been using PCs for years and thought my knowledge was pretty OK until this past weeks incident MY Did I have a Vertical Learning curve and still do it seems ….

Adaware and Spybot – yup have both of those too & EWIDo have that too 

Thanks Snowie really appreciate your advice

**************************************************

Starfish 001

F-secure hmm have heard of it don’t know much about it – off to investigate thanks

Re other sware suggestions have most of them a couple I don’t will go and investigate those too –thankshmmm Process Guard or AppDfender 0r DEfenseWall don’t know these “bit more complicated” well that depends how MUCH more complicated…

You say you use Acronis True Image – would value your comments on this as I am having a very interesting chat on the Acronis forum re buying HDDs for backups but making sure I get the right one as MANY people have found their TI tells them backup was successful but when they come to use it, it was NOT aaagh nightmare situation to find yourself in…

Did you backup to HDD as in a system image – how did you find it – any problems – any tips dos/donts… love to hear them …

Raxco First DEfence ISR – don’t know this MORE reading for me I think !

I am after the following:
1. a RELIABLE sytem backup to be able to “fall back to” in the even of a TRUE disaster
2. a backup solution for regular backups of files, documents, photos etc…

Again I value your advice thanks so much – and look forward to hearing back from you

******************************************************

SOSAISO

Zonealarm you say – hmm is this the free version or paid version.. If free one I am only concerned tat I strongly believe you get what you pay for , and would be very wary about using Free sware to protect my System…

NOD32 or Kas for Antivirus – don’t know these but the tinkering bit “hmm not so sure about that” that iswhere I could mess things up completely ….

Yup My Spysweeper is 4.5.8 and seems to be doing a grand job ..

EWIDO – yup have been using the free version for scanning too – helped clear up my MESS recently 
Maybe even some sort of HIPS – umm hate to sound stupid but have NO idea what this is – guess another thing for me to look up ..especially if it “would definately keep those nasty-ware from doing things like disabling your antivirus/antispyware tools” though again the configuring aspect hmmmm Prevx ABC agagin don’t know it MORE reading for me 

Thanks for info re Firefor and Opera – still not sure whichone to go for – but thanks for confirming “both should have a feature to import your favorites from IE”

Panda – re Panda interesting you say about the "heavy on resources" I had read that in several places too and was not sure of this – thanks again

Thanks again for all your help too SOSAISO
******************************************************
ZAPJB

Symantec removal tool – hmmm not gone down that route yet have just seen a number of postings online about people saying it was a nightmare to do and Norton just would not “let go” ..” There is only 1 right one for your product” that could be why others have had problems if they have not read the info will store this advice away for if and when I need it thanks..

Acronis MigrateEasy you say is much much easier & dependable imo than TI that IS VERY interesting – does this have the niggly problems with HDDS that Acronis True 9 has .. ie some work well and other intermittent and other NOT at all? MORE reading for me then ..

GhostWall nope not heard for that either –MORE reading thanks

Thanks so much for all your advice too ZAPJB
*************************************************
OSABAN

ProcessGuard from DiamondsCS hmm another one for me to look into YES I sure do want something to stop termination of my security programs absolutely.

Thanks for your advie too and Blackspears tip

Guess what I have a LOT more reading to do now

ONCE AGAIN THANKS EVERYONE - You are such a friednly and helpful lot I am VERY impressed off to read up now ..

 

Before you go App crazy lol, i would suggest that you secure your Browser as much as possible. Also tighten up your OS too. Those two things alone will make a considerable difference to your overall security.


Internet Explorer Privacy & Security Settings

http://www.spywarewarrior.com/uiuc/btw/ie/ie-opts.htm

Mozilla Firefox Privacy & Security Settings

http://www.spywarewarrior.com/uiuc/btw/ffox/ffox-opts.htm

Quite a few people on here now prefer Opera

http://www.opera.com/


Other Highly recommended and very effective AV/AT/AS

Kaspersky AV

http://www.kaspersky.com/products

BOClean AT

http://www.nsclean.com/boclean.html

Microsoft AS

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx


StevieO

 

The hints on that site are incomplete as they do not mention the FF extension Noscript which is an excellent tool to manage Active Content in FF. And cookies can be controlled with the extension Cookie Button.

 

Hi,
Several things:
Do you want to continue working as you are or do you want a fresh start? If you want to start from scratch, read this:

https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=114955

Apropos applications:

Using this or that is NOT a bullerproof remedy. You need to understand what you're doing. All these applications are ONLY useful tools. But they are not the security itself.
You can install all and everything, but if you do the same erroneous steps that got you infected, no setup will help you. You have to know what your programs do and do NOT do, what you're up against and if you do something on the Internet, realize the consequences.
For instance, Noscript extension for Firefox. A really superb tool. I warmly recommend it. But do you understand what javascript is? And if you stumble upon a page that does not load properly, will you disable it to see the page in fullest? Will you understand that something is wrong due to restrictions you imposed?

I do not like NIS, NAV - cause I'm communist, I don't like heavy and pricey software with too many 'features' and too little configurability and difficult uninstall - but Norton is OK for average user. It will not prompt too much. It is fine for fire-and-forget situations. But there are better options.

About what you pay is what you get - not necessarily true. If you want to spend money to 'feel' safe - fine. You can do that without wasting money needlessly. ZoneAlarm Free mentioned is probably the best out-of-the-box firewall solution for an average single-computer user at home.

My first suggestion is - learn. Computers are not rocket science. Computers are not user-friendly - true - but they can be easily mastered. It takes some investment.

Learn to be confident with the machine. Understand how the machine works. How OS works. Why certain things happen. What is registry, tcp/ip etc. Once you muster enough confidence, things will be much easier for you. You will not be running step behind the technology.

Try to understand what made you get infected. And learn to avoid those mistakes. And the CONCEPTS of mistakes. For instance, downloading free screensaves - sounds cool, right? You can do that with no security on your system and tons of security on your system, and still you can get hit by something. Or not at all. You also need to understand that even IF you DO get infected - what to do.

I assume you are the average computer user. In that case, I would consider a basic set of applications, which you can find in the other post I wrote.

NOW, if you really feel like spending money - spend a month or two getting familiar with the applications mentioned. Learn to use them well. Play with options and tweaks. And then, spend more money on paid security if you like. In that regard, I would recommend Kaspersky AV, Ewido AT, and an imaging software a la Acronis True Image or so. You could also try A2 anti-trojan with real-time IDS. Other on-demand scanners can be retained for all practical purposes.

Cheers,
Mrk

 

Well, Zonealarm free may be free, I'd have to agree with Mrk, it provides excellent protection. I know ZA may not be the one everyone around here uses [see also: Outpost Pro, Tiny, LookandStop, etc.], but I find it to be quite a good combination of security and usability.

As for the NOD32 tinkering, Blackspear has posted an excellent guide on how to go about setting up NOD32 on their forums here at Wilders. Look into it for a tight setup in easy to understand steps [I use it myself when setting up NOD32]. As for Kas I don't have that much personal experience with it [seeing as to I could never get it to run on my computer. :T] But I'm sure someone here will help you out.

You might also want to look at a post Black wrote on how to get a light, medium, or tight setup:
https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=78484

I have personally followed many of the tips in that thread.

Oh, might I recommend a HOSTS file. That keeps the computer clean for the most part usually. "If it's bad, dont' show it"-type approach:
https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=78363

 

As StevieO said don't rush to change things too quickly - he detailed some good free apps


The key thing I dislike about NIS is the firewall - I much prefer Zonealarm or Outpost. Personally I prefer not to trust everything to a suite. Assumed you might like a suite so picked F-secure as it is pretty good.

I would add free apps to support Norton and then when the lic runs out take a look at KAV, NOD , or FSecure.

On-demand and have free versions
Spybot S&D
Ewido anti-trojan
A2 anti-trojan
BitDefender


Process Guard or AppDfender 0r DefenseWall are all useful apps - but require more user imput to use


I use Acronis True Image v8 rather 9 taking full disk backups to image. My setup is probably extreme but I have one disk with O/S and APPs , one Disk for Data, One disk for backups. So TrueImage is really disaster recovery in the event of a disk failure.


I use First DEfense instead of System restore - it can change every thing on the O/S and APP between up to 10 snapshots in seconds - kinda llike booting to a different o/s but just snapshots of the same one

 

Tamba1,

I have just come from a situation like yours 3 weeks ago, but it was Mcafee antivirus that was hacked into fooling me that it was getting its updates. Needless to say i have been doing alot of research on how to better protect my PC and have found that the forums on this site a great wealth of information.

I come from a Telecommunications background with some Computer networking knowlege, but am not a security expert. After researching for a week on this site i have come up with the following Security Suite for myself that seems to be working quite well for the past 2 weeks.

I use the following 5 layered aproach, and the good news is all the products are freeware, except for the HIPS. I also stopped using IE and Outlook for my browser and email apps and now use FireFox and ThunderBird instead. http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/ http://www.mozilla.com/thunderbird/

I was also going to use a Limited Account Login (restricted privleges) and a Hosts file to filter known bad web sites to compliment my security setup, but after getting confidence in the abilities of my HIPS application I have decided not to use them.

L1. FireWall -
I am now using the free version of ZoneAlarm for this. This Acts like a Inbound stealth FW (hides your TCP/UDP ports from unsolicitated web scanning) and an Outbound Application FW (You set PC apps that can access the web, and can block server mode access to the apps.) http://www.zonelabs.com/store/conte...arison.jsp?dc=12bms&ctry=US&lang=en&lid=ho_za

L2. Anti Virus -
I am now using Avast. It has a freeware version that is almost identicle to the paid version. With the free version you get Auto updates, Real time On-Access monitoring, and the ability to manually run On-Demand scanning (quick or thorough). The only major advantage of the paid version is you can auto schedule your On-Demand scanning (quick or thorough). So i just have to remember to maually run a weekly on-demand thorough scan with the free version, i have figured out a way to use windows scheduled task manager to automatically run daily quick scans for me. http://free.grisoft.com/doc/2/lng/us/tpl/v5

L3. Anti Trojan -
I am now using the free version of Ewido. The main differance between the free version and the paid version is the free version does not have any real time monitoring or Auto Updates. I manually run weekly On-Demand Scans. http://www.ewido.net/en/

L4. Anti Spyware/IDS -
I am using MicroSoft AntiSpyware for this. It is a free program that is in Beta mode, but seems to be bug free (at least major bugs). It does Auto Updates, Auto On-Demand Scans, and has 59 Real Time Agents that act like an IDS (Intrusion Detection system) which monitor things like changes to startup programs, registry changes, ect... and gives warning pop-ups. http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx

L5. HIPS (Host Intrusion Prevention System) -
I use DefenseWall for this. I consider this the Crown Jeweal of my Suite, and is worth every penny of its reasonable $29 cost (30 day free trial). With DW i can serf the web like a newbie and don't have to worry about being hacked my Malware. If i get hacked the infection is limited to the sandbox and i can flush the sandbox with the press of one button and be back to normal. Any malware corpes that are left behind will be cleaned from my PC during my next scheduled scans. I have not personally used or tried similar type apps like Sandboxie or BufferZone, but from what i have read on forums DW seems to be easier to use and safer then those products. Following is the blurb from their website:

DefenseWall HIPS (Host Intrusion Prevention System) is the simplest and easiest way to protect yourself from malicious software (spyware, adware, keyloggers, rootkits, etc.) when you surf the Internet! Using the next generation proactive protection technologies, sandboxing and virtualization, DefenseWall HIPS helps you achieve a maximum level of protection against malicious software, while not demanding any special knowledge or ongoing online signature updates.

DefenseWall HIPS divides all applications into 'Trusted' and 'Untrusted' groups. Untrusted applications are launched with limited rights to modification of critical system parameters, and only in the virtual zone that is specially allocated for them, thus separating them from trusted applications. In the case of penetration by malicious software via one of the untrusted applications (web browsers etc), it cannot harm your system and may be closed with just one click! With DefenseWall HIPS, Internet surfing has never been so simple, safe and easy. Try it today, and you will be convinced! http://www.softsphere.com/

 

Hi Richard

I am sorry for not having repied I have not been in here for a while nor online for many weeks due to my illness.
THANK YOU for your detailed inf VERY interesting and helpful for sure...

I am going to look into Defense wall but am thinking Spysweeper ( paid version) is doing this too .. which incidentally I bought AFTER my "invasion"

Once again thanks for taking to time to share your approach hope you manage to keep the bleepers out from hereon in.

Tamba

 

Personally I think you would be well served with an AV like NOD32, and I really don't think you need to do any tinkering with the settings (the defaults are fine, you can turn them up for the manual scans, but you can also just click the button to do an "In-Depth" scan). A lot of people find Zone Alarm to suit there needs, my preference is Look'n'Stop (very easy, very light on resources, but does cost). I generally wouldn't recommend HIPS type programs to those without a lot of computer knowledge, however DefenseWall and Prevx1 are both geared towards the non-technical user. The big things are your browser and email. It sounds like you've already got a start on that, Firefox or Opera, but should also use a non-Microsoft email program as well. The same folks that make Firefox make Thunderbird, which is a great program, and Opera has one built in (I've never tried it, so can't comment). Both will also block popups, which is also important (I've found Firefox to be better at this). To give more personal advice, it would be useful to know if you know how the infection that you had got in.. any idea?

Don't worry about not knowing a lot, everyone starts somewhere and just about everyone here realizes that Many like myself came here after realizing that we didn't know anything about security, regardless of our backgrounds (I've done a lot of tech work), so most people here started out in about the same place.

 

I will suggest a setup that I consider costeffective and protectioneffective (I am no expert);

Realtime
free Zonealarm FW
Defensewall HIPS with Rollback USD 29,- once - no yearly update costs.
System should be clean when installing this and maybe all HIPS.
free Antvir 7 (alternative free Avast or maybe free AVG)
free Microsoft Antispyware

if you install a lot from CDs you dont always feel are safe I suggest you scan the files at Virustotal o Jottis before install. If the nasties mostly come over the Internet this setup should be good.


Ondemand
free Ewido on line scan and remove
free AdAware
free Kaspersky on line scanner (no automatic remove) - a good check that your system is clean.
HiJackthis - when my system was clean I set all the entries in HJT in ignorelist so that I easilly can see the new entries without having to go true them all every time.

Start with as few realtime apps as possible and learn about them before you add on. Some gives protection without any setup, others need a little learning and thats often worth the effort.

Apart from the FW, the HIPS are the once pointing towards the future of protection - I think. But as long as their are free AVs around I will use them and be thankful that they are offered for free.

Best Regards

 

i like 'safexp' it's a really simple, small program which helps secure XP.

you run it, then tick the boxes you want to secure. if you hover your mouse over one of the options an explaination of the 'fix' is shown at the bottom of the programme. you can click the 'Recommended Settings' box and it will fill in some of the boxes for you. there's also a restore setting too if you don't like what's it's done.

http://www.markusjansson.net/kuvat/safexp.png

http://www.theorica.net/safexp.htm

also, it's important to keep windows up-to-date as well as all your scanners.

there is a small program which does a quick scan at boot time. when the scan's finished it shows you which files/folders have changed since the last scan. it's useful because, say Internet Explorer has been infected you might not notice, but this program will let you know. if something's changed and you don't know what to do just ask, or use google to check.
https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=91287

 

iceni,
A very nice, compact and comprehensive tool this SafeXP.
Exactly what I'm looking for on my new computer to make winXPproSP2 safer. Thanks.