why not use Disk Clone as backup strategy?

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by robertpri, Dec 21, 2005.

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  1. emt

    emt Registered Member

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    I am a home user and I am using disk clone as my backup strategy and have been doing so since sept. of this year. Simple, fast, no disks to look for. I love it. I am aware that if I only reclone my other drive monthly with my data, I may loose up to a month of data but that is of no consequence to this home user unless its tax time. I will be extra careful that one month . However i will have my tax info on a floppy also. I love the 2 drive disk clone and my system starts from either drive by just swithching sata connectors as you mentioned.Only thing of course being one drive may be up to a month older data -which is usually of little significance to this home user. For $50 another drive is much easier for me than finding and hoping the cd's dvd's are not scratched/missing/put in the wrong order/etc.
     
  2. noonie

    noonie Registered Member

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    Already answered, but I'll try to make it a little more clear.

    You cannot take a operating modern os and put it in a computer of different hardware and expect it to work, neither by cloning or imaging.
    However, there are workarounds.

    You can clone to another hdrive only and you can image a complete drive and restore it to another drive or other media. In order for it to boot and run fine in different hardware in either case you must do a repair install of winxp.
    This is because you will have the wrong drivers for the different new hardware (vid card, hdrive controllers, etc etc)

    You can educate yourself on MS sysprep or at least change all your drivers to basic generic drivers, before you clone or image, so your new installation might boot. Also be aware that a repair requires a winxp cd and most likely activation issues.

    If your are buying a production pc the os is already installed so this should be unnecessary.

    If you are getting a bare system it is best to start from a scratch install. Why risk a business pc being unstable which is possible from a repair.

    You can tweak your present system to save all data from all programs to at least a separate partition, so all you have to do is drag and drop from a backup source of your choice to your new drive. Document your file structure so the new drive can be duplicated. (ie. from a cloned drive, you can access all your files easily because they are not compressed), but be aware that winxpsp2 does not like to have 2 hdrives with 2 active partitions and 2 os's installed.

    BTW Using a removable drive is more reliable than external.
     
  3. bVolk

    bVolk Registered Member

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    emt,

    Why cloning?

    I'm a home user myself and I opted for Backup. This way I can keep several full images of the system drive on the second one (I still keep the image I created when I received the computer fresh from the vendor). I usually create a new image before trying out new software, so I can choose from several points in time when I want to restore.

    A full backup of about 9 GB of system, application and personal files on primary drive takes 4-5 min. on my machine (SATA drives, 3.2 GHz, 1 GB memory). And the restore is just as painless, no drive reconnecting. Even if the primary drive brakes down, I shall be able to restore the image to a new drive.
     
  4. emt

    emt Registered Member

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    As previously mentioned I am a HOME user. The title of this thread probably should have been why not use disk clone as backup strategy for business as I am now introducting my opinion of HOME user. I can tell you from a HOME user experience that windows xp 3.0 HT 512mb RAM 250gig harddrive easily disk clones the drive from one drive to the other with all data cloned. I am then able to easily disconnect sata cables from the orig drive and test the cloned drive to reboot system. I now have a spare disconnected drive in my computer bay containing system + every bit of data up till now movies, family pictures, etc about 80gig worth. If lightening strikes its disconnected from the motherboard. Yes if someone steals my computer, all is lost. Also yes if an airplane hits my house, all is lost. But, when I'm dead I wont know. I have many children that love to go through my cd's, dvd's and scratch them. Some cd's/dvd's have not played when inserted over the years perhaps due to the quality of the manufacturer and delamination over time. I do not believe these problems will occur once a harddrive has data on it and is disconnected as a backup. I am not the most organized guy in the world and I often misplace things like cd's/dvd's. I find it comforting to know the disconnected drive is in the computer. I do not need the most recent month of data backed up as a HOME user. I read many of the problems in the forum and on the previous page about reinstalling the system with disks.....................Such as:::::::::::::these previous posts of preceeding page:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::1.The images were also copied to CDs' kept off site.

    I don't know how many tens of thousands of $$ they spent trying to recover files, but I was fired. [they didn't sue, knowing that I'm just a retired IT guy with few financial resources]

    Sooooooo, you can see my hesitation to just believe anybody's software any more. I have other clients and looking for a new solution.

    2. I am having this same question as to how to best restore a full disk image stored on multiple DVD-RW disks to a new computer system, should something happen to the current computer. This happened to me and my business this past year.
    I may be kind of retarded here, so anyone please feel free to set me straight. I am wondering 3. what good a backup program is if you cannot restore it to another computer if something happens to your old one.4. I had this problem with my business this past year. Lightening struck a power transformer (I know this sounds dramatic, but it's true) and it went right through our UPS backup system to fry everything in our computer--mother board and all.)

    In this type of situation, is a person just resigned to consider himself up the creek without a paddle? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>At this point as long as only the harddrive is fried, (the motherboard etc. are not fried) I swithch sata connectors and restart from the old cloned drive. --I would have to get it working in the same hardware config so if the motherboard etc. is toasted, simply buy a new identical one, but pulling it into another computer would not be an option for at least starting the system--however I would be able to still read some critical drive area records. For me HOME user: Disk clone with 2 harddrives is simple/fast/more reliable storage than dvds,cds for backups, complete total backup of all data not just os, switching sata connectors a month to X days from now is simple if needed with no looking for cd/dvds and instally proper sequence etc and hoping all is read correctly. Read the posts and you will see how many people could not reinstall their system with their cd's/dvd's if they wanted to (unfortunately the typical IQ is way lower than needed for even this task). I am not not not implying the people on the former page have an IQ problem. Just that even these type people have a problem so you know average JOE will be totally lost reinstalling cds/dvds.
     
  5. bVolk

    bVolk Registered Member

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    emt,

    The point I wanted to make is that by cloning you use the whole second drive for just one image. By choosing backup instead, you can store several full images on this same second drive. You can still unplug the second drive in between the backups if you feel better doing it.

    I am not talking about CDs/DVDs here. I try to avoid them too, if possible.

    The horror story may emerge when you have to restore the image in a new computer with different hardware. In that instance you will be none the better with a cloned drive than with a full drive image. Both will have the same level of incompatibility with the new computer.

    At least that's the way I see it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2005
  6. emt

    emt Registered Member

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    Hi bVolk, either way is fine. You know your way works. I know my way works. Just FYI concerning the statement-------"The point I wanted to make is that by cloning you use the whole second drive for just one image." --------------------------Actually you have made 2 hard drive clones. These 250gig harddrives are 80gig full they are no where near used up. I'll probably get to 250gig in a few more years for that capacity.------------------At which time I may become more creative----I did not want to mention this but, My computer will allow both drives to be accessible with only one drive running the os at a time thus the other drive can be plugged into the other sata & used as a read drive. I am really able to go into the other drive and add data, play movies etc. if needed. However I am about 130gig away from really needing to do that and do not want to take the chance of os systems eventually recognizing each other. I prefer disconnecting the 2nd sata drive. And as previously mentioned drive prices are sooo low $90 for 250gig after rebates, Extra drives are easy to come by.
     
  7. profitxchange

    profitxchange Registered Member

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    I have adopted the strategy you are querying. In my case I found I had an itermittent/iffy hdd. I bought an identical (mistake) HDD and cloned across from the iffy drive. I have now reconfigered the cable and jumpers so the new drive is primary and iffy = slave.

    Works perfectly. On boot up I can hit f11 select slave and work straight away. or let the boot run and go straight into the primary drive and work straight away.

    Acronis do not recommend this set up but so far I have had no problems with the actual functionality. I clone from primary to slave whenever I feel I need a back up. about 1/wk for me. it takes a few minutes and bingo you have two identical boot drives. If anything should go wrong I can boot into the other drive and work and clone back later when i have time.

    The only problem is that after cloning you have two identically labelled drives! you need to re label them to differentiate them. My son has found a little script than could do this automatically by recognising the HDD serial nos. but I have not set this up yet.

    Hope this helps
     
  8. profitxchange

    profitxchange Registered Member

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    Sorry a PS

    If I want to try out any software or experiment ( I am not computer literate) I use the slave drive so if anything goes wrong I can clone across the master in minutes and I have a full back-up again.

    This seems a much better strategy than playing in you primary drive then restoring from what seems to me a messy restore process.

    I only wish Acronis would provide a scheduled cloneing facility. (I have requested but no respnse yet)

    Good luck
     
  9. emt

    emt Registered Member

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    Hi profitxchange, yep i'm doing the same as you. I'm not sure why more people don't go the simple way that we do-disk clone 2 drives. I guess they just read the material supplied by the software companies. Its good to question conventional wisdom. It's funny, a lot of people are running the backup disks without checking their disaster recovery system only to find out they have corrupt dvds cds or unable to correctly restart their system once it fails. I suppose it's just a dollar and cents reason the software vendors don't mention our option. Our way is too simple to sell much of it. A business selling backup software wants to keep heading toward instantaneous system copying to prove their worth. Complicated explanations of how to do this tends to drive sells. Mentioning that a simple alternative exists for 99% of home users might cause a loss of revenue.
     
  10. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    profitxchange,

    I understand you can boot to either HD. Can you let us know if you can boot to either drive if there is only one hard drive in your computer? That would be the situation if one HD died. A good test of your system.
     
  11. emt

    emt Registered Member

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    I can restart the computer with either single drive installed. I have tested both drives individually. Both restart the computer if either are installed. (it's 11pm eastern and my glass & 1/2 of wine may be affecting my typing etc. as bedtime is fast approaching). Here is when I first started playing with disk clone: September 13th, 2005, 12:51 AM
    Replies: 3
    unable to see orig. drive using new cloned drive for os
    Views: 126
    Posted By emt
    Wink Re: unable to see orig. drive using new cloned drive for os

    Thank you Mr. Popov. I did as advised on changing the orig. 160gb drive to another alphabet higher up that was not used and my cloned 250gb drive now has access to the original 160gb drive. I shutdown & restarted the system & it boots fine off the 250gb clone and the alphabet given prior to shutdown was retained by the os for the 160gb drive thus I am still able to see the drive without revisiting disk management in windows. Also, if I simply swithch the SATA plug in at the motherboard, the 160gb boots the system & the 250gb is now usable as before mentioned. Since I now have access to both drives I am planning on monthly using disk clone to copy one drive to the other. (I hope the program allows me to copy 85gb of data from the 250gb drive to the 160gb drive when I delete all of its partitions in a month). The following month I am planning on reversing the process again 160gb back to the 250gb drive. I don't mind replacing a months worth of personal data if the hard drive should...
    I have done this with a sata computer and an ide computer, neither had a problem. Check bios settings and which drive to start from, swithched jumpers etc. Disk clone makes exact copies of os & data, It will start if bios is set right. I usually disconnect one of drives, but too lazy to sometimes and doubt lightning will go thu ups battery surge protector and dont really think a few more pennies a day will matter to have both drives running or not running matters. Play around with it, no big deal, the worst that will happen is it will not start (will not happen if bios is set right) and switch back to previous if bios is not set correctly.
     
  12. profitxchange

    profitxchange Registered Member

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    Response to Brian K.

    Whilst I have not had a complete HDD failure to test the theory. I would imagine once you know a drive has failed one can reboot F11 and select the other one to continue the boot sequence and you are up and running again. I would imagine you could then explore the dead drive from the live one to see if you could fix it. Or just clone another copy of the live drive to it. equally if you do have to replace the dead HDD its only a few minutes to clone your live system to the new drive and you are back where you started.

    Using back ups seems too long winded to rebuild lost programmes and setups let alone data. This was my reason for using cloning . I am am far from computer savvy and cloning seemed the laymans way of getting what I wanted.

    I do eventually plan to do a low level format of my iffy drive once I can pluck up the courage, as Maxtor suggest this may clear the intermittent failure I have been experiencing. I can then reclone my whole system back and have instant capability to keep working. Hope this helps?
     
  13. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    Thanks guys,

    I'm not familiar with using F11 to reboot so this is taking a while for me to understand. I'd be interested to hear from Menorcaman about your approach.
     
  14. emt

    emt Registered Member

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    I forgot to mention another obvious reason disk clone is frowned upon. All software vendors get a very big frown every time microsoft os is disk cloned in an operational stand alone form without a trail of data-material etc. needed to tie it back to it's orig. source. I think MSFT is tooo concerned it may be but on a different computer with similar config. and may work.
     
  15. OldITGuy

    OldITGuy Guest

    Over the years I have used many methods and software to accomplish backup and restore. I have learned:
    1. Don't trust NTBACKUP. It's ok for data but not for the system.
    2. Image backup and restore is the best; but test it.
    3. If they steal the computers buy identical motherboards on ebay.
    4. Microsoft has a KB article on moving to different hardware. I have used it to go to completely different motherboards and it works. But as Dirty Harry said "A man's got to know his limitations!". Don't try to go from SCSI to IDE drives, initially set up with minumum hardware, etc. Make the two environments as easy as possible. And if that fails try to bail out with a repair install.
     
  16. OldITGuy

    OldITGuy Guest

    You never did answer BrianK. What was the imaging software being used on the stolen computers?
     
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