problems with tauscan

Michael,

I'll tell you three things (as the actual developer of the program you're talking about). You've made 3 absolutely useless points that only scratch the surface of TDS detection, and all 3 points would be better directed at other anti-trojan scanners, but you're not interested in attacking those as they don't represent competition. We can detect a trojan in _any_ way we choose - heuristics, generic rules, binary sigs, text sigs, or even programmatical detection - you name it, we can do it, we're not tied down to databases like the other scanners are, and from your comments you clearly don't understand even half of what TDS can do. Whatever is best for that trojan is the method chosen, and virtually all trojans are identified by many techniques - not just one.

Why do you come over here to attack our software? Shouldn't we now go over to your forums and attack your software You're talking about your software here as if it's the be-all and end-all of anti-virus software, when the reality is that it's just a buggy beta anti-virus that has only been around a year or two. You have a lot of catching up to do with the other anti-virus scanners, so before you start attacking our scanner, don't you think you should improve your scanner first?

No software is perfect so we could easily attack each others scanners all weekend at each others forums, and it seems that this is what you want to do -- it's what you're already doing -- so would you like us to go over to the GAV forum and start attacking GAV? No? Then why do it here? I don't know of a more unprofessional way to promote a program than the methods you employ - I don't think you'll get many sales this way, sorry. If your scanner was even half as good as you say it is, you wouldn't need to behave like you do - your software would do the talking for you.

Anyway that's enough wasting time for one weekend.

 

Come on guys, nearly every thread I look at these days seems to end up with the same cross words about tds3.

I can understand rivalry between products but shouldn't we all be working to the same goal,to help and protect users?


Kev

 

Kev,
You ask a very good question - "Why don't all the AV'ers/AT'ers just get along and work together?" - it's a question I ask myself regularly, but it's not easy to get on with people when they go out of their way to attack your livelihood. In our case, TDS and two other shareware programs (Port Explorer and Wormguard) are the only way we put bread on our table. We get on very well with nearly all anti-virus/anti-trojan vendors and have worked co-operatively with many in the past, including Kevin from NSClean and Daniel from Moosoft as just two developers that people here might know, but there are just three - Michael/Gladiator, Andreas Haak, and Magnus Mischel, that regularly go out of their way to attack our software in order to promote their own, and quite simply we don't put up with that, especially as our software has been around a lot longer than all of theirs.

We only sell three programs - everything else we give away for free, as you can see at our site, and although we'll tell people why TDS is the best anti-trojan scanner, we never attack other specific anti-trojan scanners in the process (we don't even have any 'comparison' pages on our website), nor do we go over to their forums to attack their software there.

The reasons are simple...
- Morals, business ethics, common courtesy.
- Our software speaks for itself - we've got customers that have been using TDS for over half a decade now and we find that word-of-mouth results in a lot of people trying our software. We never use competitors forums to advertise our software or attack theirs, and don't believe that is a professional way to achieve sales.
- It's not only unprofessional to go out of your way to attack competitive software, but it's an appalling sales approach.
- We have all the skills, credentials and software required to detect any trojan that comes our way so although we'll co-operate with other vendors when they need our help, we've never needed to seek their help.

Kev, you say that nearly every thread you see something about an attack against TDS, but you will notice that in every single instance, the attack has been started by either Michael, Andreas Haak, or Magnus Mischel. This is a small percentage of anti-trojan developers, and a miniscule percentage of all forum users. Actually to his credit, Magnus hasn't directly attacked us for several months and hopefully he'll stay focused on his job and not ours.

It's disappointing that this is how it is folks, but what can I say - it's no longer our choice when they go on the offensive against us, all we can do is defend our livelihood.

Best regards,
Wayne

 

We have seen nice examples too though, in the "polymorph trojan" thread in the TDS forums here, of developers reacting substantial and contributive so the various developers could all profit from this brain exchange.
The facts about the developers only area proofs there is interest to keep discussions informative and educational, so let's wait for the fruits to ripen.

I'm among the many thousands of thousands DCS users, and i'm proud of it.
I'm not choosing a product because it's green or black but for what it does for me.

 

Hi Wayne!

I really loved your answers! I'm a businessman as well and we have the same problems with other companies who act in the same way as you described. I believe as well in morals, business ethics and common courtesy. But you know why they are doing this: because you are the leader! And they are nothing more than jealous. So enough about this issue!

Nevertheless a (software) company sells its products more with its support, morals and business ethics than with something else. That's why I'm a convinced adherent of DCS!

Keep up the good work, Wayne! There are people like me who are grateful to all what you do to improve security!

Best regards!

Patrice

 

Waiting for your avatar to get some additions Patrice.

But of course by no means the discussion should be frustrated where it is about enhancing security matters.
Serious business, an outstanding support, top notch products, daily updates, and engineers standby 24/7, our wishlists fulfilled in the software, this is so much more then we could reasonable ask for!
So soon the developers can all join for constructive brainbanging in a place where no others are blurring their discussions, we'll see the fruits, not the plasters!

 

First of all ... this posting has no offensive meaning. Its just a try to answer the "Why?" question. In my opinion TDS is a very powerful software package with great features for advanced users and it is a very powerful "competitor" (in fact i think we are all co workers) for every AT vendor on the market. But lets start ...

Well Wayne ... would you like to know what a european citizen thinks if he read your statements and postings? He would think ... "What an arrogant asshole." (and by the way i would think the same).

I visited America and Australia several times and I discovered that arrogant behaviour is tolerated by the "mainstream" there. In Europe its completely diffrent. Arrogant behaviour in Europe will only cause frantic abuses or the will to try to bring you down to the ground of facts. The problem is that most american and australian will see this behaviour as a personal attack or as an attack of their own product.

Just look at the "discussions" Andreas had with you or the PSC guys. Did he ever mentioned ANTS? Did he ever said: "Well, ANTS is much better than your product."? In fact I was not able to find any posting with exactly this content.

Mostly he only said why the product is not as powerfull and recommendable as anyone claims and this is exactly the "put somone down to the ground of facts" behaviour I mentioned above.

So in my opinion its just confusion caused by cultural differences. This is my point of view. You might have a diffrent one.

 

Angel,
I'm European too, but from the Netherlands of which the Holland part especially is famous for the free thinkers and speakers, although others might think very different, as we've seen in history and recent times. Erasmus, to mention a famous name.
We do like good arguments and respectful discussions, if proved facts are mentioned and persons get a fair chance to test for themselves and see if they overlooked exceptions or details.
Every person attacked will climb into defence first for their products and their business, of course, so would you.
It is how is the news brought about possible vulnerabilities and how things might be improved for a next version of a product. This should be discussed among the developers, email, meeting, whatever the people choose for, before it is made public and thus creating confusion by the user of products of both developers and of all products as we see people asking the strangest questions about details never discussed about a product in question but a whole different thing, it harms in fact the whole AT/AV area.
It is harming both, what is happening at this moment.
If it is not a possible personal interpretation of arrogant behavior --why should a person who is known for top notch products not be allowed to say so? and most of all while he has given his personal email address all time to keep discussions open? and agreed if something could be bettered?-- then it is users raising eyebrows about both products quality, security, and probably looking at a third product.
If this is what the people are up to, tell me who is product developer number three maybe creating these discussions on purpose, to name one example and i am not naming developers as i just give an example, i am not saying this is happening concretely in this situation.

So please come back to the discussion about what it was started in a constructive way, and for details please all developers contact Paul for your secure discussions place.

And euhmmm where quoting from other places, texts, helpfiles, forums, emails, whatever is not your personal text be so kind to mention the sources, if possible with URLs for ease of people who want to read the whole text or possible copyrights reasons.

Thank you so much for cooperation.

 

Well Jooske ... i will ignore what you said and i will say you why ...

http://www.trojaner-board.de/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001816#000010

Davidovv is Paul . This part of the posting is very interesting:

It means something like:

You understood it in a wrong way. Only the moderators working inside one of the vendor forums are payed - not by us but by the software vendors themselfes.

This means regarding to Paul you are paid for what you are saying/doing here. This is why I will never trust you concerning any issues linked with DCS and why i will ignore your statements. Your opinion might be objective of course but it is possible you won't say anything against your employer, too. I hope you know what I mean und i hope you understand that this statement is not meant as a personal attack .

 

Angel,
fortunately i can understand German language as well so i can say, what Paul says is exactly correct:
but i'll first give you a more correct translation of Paul's words

My translation:
Wrong understood. Only the moderators who work for software companies are paid, and not by us but by the software companies themselves.

He says people who WORK for the developers are paid by those companies. In the case of DCS that are Wayne himself, Jason and Gavin, responsible for lots of development and support as moderators here in their forum as you can see their names announced and in the signatures in their postings.
Pilli and i are not working there nor for the company at all, we are located on the other side of the planet, we have no DCS titles and email addresses, nor can you find us in the chamber of commerce details for DCS in the amount of working people and we are not paid black.
Now you mention it, the ways how we are paid in reality i described yesterday in my ode to DCS
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=8691;start=0
reply #9
I'm not snapping in the fish you're holding for me to ask you about your reliability in case of payment for your Angelhorn blowing --i hope for you a lot! and make sure to keep a clear note /tone as i know you can--,
as i asked before to continue the original discussion as it was, as i am sure there were very fruitful parts surfacing.

You see now how imperative tiny little details are and give such a complete different outlook?
Thanks for understanding!

 

>He says people who WORK for the developers are paid by those companies.

First I thought that too, but this won't make any sence if you look at the context of the thread and the posting (and if i where you I won't say Paul is right cause then every one would think you are just an advertising column).

But well ... lets do it with your translation:

>Wrong understood. Only the moderators who work for software
>companies are paid, and not by us but by the software companies
>themselves.

Well moderators in general are not paid. But the moderators that work for the vendor (and this is in my opinion working as a mod inside the vendor boards) are paid by the vendor for doing their jobs.

 

You're repeating yourself. But yes, if you delete my answers before reading them:
like said: moderators who work for the company, and you know by now who are, right? Others can be moderating and still not working for the company, right? And you know who are those as well.
And the entusiastic users who are not working for the company and are not moderating, and are not paid for applauding with money but in the ways i described in the ode on DCS, same like we ourselves.
If money is your problem, hmmmm, could be ours too in real life.
We are happy with the satisfaction described in the ode.
Is this much different from your own situation?
If we would be the paid advertisement columns i would ask "my employer" for better marketing concepts , buttons, stickers, presents, presentations, billboards, flyers, posters, hornblowers, the whole lot!
No, i'm not going to write what obscure things i could think of too as that would be against TOS of this board.

I i did scroll a little down and saw Andreas Haak --not your alter ego you explained before, nor your employer, you are not paid by him to blow your clarion here-- writing this interesting sentense in the same location/url

My translation: "Then was my question entitled for asking if Jooske for her marketing excesses in Other Anti Trojan Board regarding TDS at least is paid well. " correct me in details if i miss an interpretation.
I wonder if this was the first time asked or if this was quoted from a former occasion. Anyway:
We can write everywhere we want in the forums, within the TOS, of course. So you see in our "title" who and what we are, we are not hiding. If users and guests are who they say let's just hope to keep things less complicated.
About Andreas' remark: are we sure he is not confusing me with Patrice for instance? Anyway, if this is a value mark about the few things i might have written about TDS (did i? did i get a chance for that in this thread?) than thanks for the applause, well deserved and appreciated, especially from Andreas whom i've nothing against personally, let this be clear, i'm sure the payment will allow me five minutes holiday on villa jardin del sol and one more posting for a long drink of aqua claire. (one must know to reward yourself, don't you think and do that yourself too or are you paid better then a 1000% raise 0?)

Watch out the board owner is not taking measures as this discussion is violating TOS (you're not allowed to offend moderators, vendors) and my so-called "employer" even though he is not can write stronger than i can.


I think for the wellbeing of this discussion thread here we should just concentrate on this enlightment i just have given you for this one statement.
What is further the matter and might be arguments is discussed in five pages overthere and i have no intention to do a discussion which takes place overthere with all different people here where nobody has nothing to do with it and with quotes without the URLs where it is quoted from for that full context originally there.
I just showed you the details of a wrong understood fact. I have no time nor interest to read through all that either. Paul is quite capable to defend the forum and the dedicated forums and vendors himself.
I see it was even wrong understood and corrected by Paul in this sentense above that the companies would have paid for their moderation of the dedicated forums here.
You said something about us mods, and this i have clearly corrected here.
If you are not convinced i am interested in the payments you think we should get, and i would even mail the bankaccount where i like to receive them then and not black, just clear and open. Thanks for doing me this big favor.

Can we now finally go back to the real discussion at hand? It was about trojan software, to remind you. I am not a trojan nor a worm. I hope you're at least convinced of that by now.
If not, this thread should be closed as it's really leading to nothing and another potential fruitful nice discussion would end in a closed thread. I am sure you like to play your Angelhorn to be heard and not just to disturb other forums.

Thanks for understanding.

 

Oh boys, this just _had_ to come, sorry for (somehow) initiating this flame.

@Patrice

You could already read some things...snipped. no way this is started up all over - Forum Admin.