I do not think all has been said regarding TDS-3

This is very good news Wayne!

 

This is all well and good and very exciting news Wayne, although it seems that we've heard that song before. How about cleaning up the mess you already made before creating potential future problems? I know of at least 5 folks who have written to the DCS sales office regarding some type of adjustment other than the free license deal and thus far weeks have passed with no reply. Wouldn't it be better to clean house first before moving in the new goodies?

 

Hi all,
Right, I`ve heard enough, everyone has more than enough time to express their admiration / disgust for Wayne / DCS, throwing legal challanges around is a bit strong!! Every one of you who has posted messages which are detrimental to Wayne / DCS and is perfect! please post back
" I am perfect, and so I am allowed to critise Wayne / DCS"

 

I think old King Tut that we all realize here that none of us are perfect, and indeed, in this world, perfection does not exist. So let's just replace the unattainable "perfect" with "paying customer", (while parenthetically adding "many of whom are feeling cheated"), and I think you will get the gist of the arguments made here. I ran a business for over 50 years, and I can tell you without reservation, that once you take money from people for products and/or services, whether you do the right thing or the wrong thing, you give, along with your product, a license for people to criticize you and your product, left, right and center. It's all part of doing business, as any businessman (or woman) will tell you. I wish Wayne and his company all the very best and hope that he is able to recover from all of the negative publicity which has been generated by his decision to abandon TDS. But when you take the bucks, you gotta also take all the knocks that come along with that.

 

Hi Tut,

Like your sig implies, I, too, am the owner of all three of DCS's major products.

Nevertheless, you also need to offer the following to complement your request for postbacks:

"I am perfect, and so I am allowed to praise Wayne/DCS."

Fair play, right?

 

TUT its time you give it a break and put down your POM POMs.

Your constant calling for the closure of this thread is repetitive & unnecessary as we all heard you the first time.

There are many people who are STILL JUST finding out TDS no longer updates.

My feelings on this matter are:

Yes DCS has the right to terminate a program should it so desire.

However their mistake (and its a biggie) is they most definitely should have given at least 30 days notice to their customers.

A simple statement alerting people that in 30 days TDS will be terminated, and anyone who purchased the product in the 6 months prior to the announcement could either ask for a Full refund or a license to another DCS product.

This is ALL they needed to do to avoid the fallout they are now experiencing.


In my experience as a business owner I can tell you I NEVER would have pulled the carpet out from under my customers as DCS has done. Customer satifaction is JOB 1.

I also don't think they should be compounding their problems by giving away all these free licenses. A healthy bottom line is needed in order to stay in business. Free don't pay the bills. Free offers is what killed TDS.

That said, they have always been on top of the security software ladder and I hope they remain there for a long time, but I feel they need to get a business plan going or we are likely to see the end of this company as we know it.

 

Hi there 'lost pw so im anon' (the forum software does have a 'forgotten password' feature by the way) ...

I can understand why you think that it would've been best if we had've given 30 days notice, that's quite a reasonable suggestion and under normal circumstances when these things can be predicted then foreward notice would normally be given, however what we did do was give notice immediately - as soon as we knew/made the decision, because this decision wasn't one we had or could've predicted. Once we had reached the decision there was no point dragging it on, that wouldn't be in anyones best interests - not ours, not yours, so we informed the public immediately, even though we knew it would come as a shock. I don't mind copping criticism for the short notice if the decision is in the best interests of my customers, and that will become plainly evident in as time goes by as we're able to release more and more programs, which we wouldn't be able to do if we were still developing TDS. What would 30 days notice do anyway? And why 30 days in particular? Time to get another anti-trojan program? Don't bother, we wouldn't be discontinuing TDS if we felt there was still a place for anti-trojan scanners going into the future, and as one of the very few individuals who has worked in the anti-trojan business since it first started on day 1 when the very first remote access trojans were released I'm in a unique position to know where the industry is going, due to having seen where it has been since the start.

Anyway, allow me to reply to some of your questions/comments...

I'm sorry if you view this decision as 'pulling the carpet out', but I believe you're looking at one program rather than the big picture. We're not about just one program, and we have more customers who don't have TDS than those that do, therefore if TDS is getting to the stage where it is consuming all of our resources and preventing us from updating the programs that our other customers use then clearly it's not fair to the majority of our customers. Yes it's a big decision, and certainly not a decision I had any enjoyment in making - I created TDS, it was my baby, and nobody is more sad to see her go than myself but this decision is in the best interests of my customers for both tomorrow and the long term, so although it was a difficult decision to make I had no hesitation after having considered everything and every option, but I also knew that as soon as the decision was made it was in the best interests of my customers to inform them immediately.

The interesting side to that is that if we had kept developing TDS we would've been able to work on nothing else, as there just isn't enough demand for anti-trojan scanners to warrant hiring more analysts/developers, so if we had kept developing TDS that probably would've resulted in the end of DiamondCS as we know it. With TDS (our only unconventional program) out of the way so to speak we are now free to get back to work on our other programs such as ProcessGuard, Port Explorer, WormGuard, and also NEW programs which is what I'm most excited about. None of this would be possible if TDS was still on the To Do list, and I know that my customers would much prefer updates to all of our existing programs + new programs rather than just 1 new program.

Best regards,
Wayne

 

Thanks for taking the time to post here Wayne - but it should be obvious that business customers don't have the flexibility of individual users. They need to evaluate a product, arrange a purchase (which in itself could take some weeks in larger companies!) and deploy new software throughout their networks. Not providing that 30-day support is therefore very much a case of yanking the carpet from under their feet and would presumably be a considerable disincentive for future purchases.

As for getting another anti-trojan program, well what else can they do? Software like PG isn't suitable for complete novices ("Helpdesk? I'm getting a prompt about running svchost - what is it?"). If DCS are working on alternatives then good for them - but it isn't much use for those needing protection for the here and now. Scanners may be facing a problem with exponential malware growth, but for many they are still the best current solution.

 

Paranoid2000,

I agree, many people just want a simple yet mostly-reliable solution, but anti-virus scanners are now the way to go - not anti-trojan, anti-spyware or any other specific scanners. Anti-virus scanners now (the best ones that is - there are still many weak anti-virus scanners and people also need to be aware of those) are better than the current anti-trojan/anti-spyware etc scanners for that sort of detection, our own TDS included. Remember, they've been around since the start, decades before anti-trojan scanners came into play, and they have more capital to work with in terms of hiring more analysts to add detection for more malware. The best modern anti-virus scanners detect more variants, unpack more packers, decrypt more crypters, and their databases are updated by more analysts, there's just no real reason to use specific anti-trojan scanners anymore.

Best regards,
Wayne

 

Hello Wayne thanks for your reply.

You asked, What would 30 days notice do anyway? And why 30 days in particular?

30 days as a courtesy to all who have purchased and depend on your "services". Its the professional way to handel this type of thing.
Thats it, thats all.

Your explanation of why you had to cease further updates & development immediately is still not known. Your comment of "under normal circumstances" and "because this decision wasn't one we had or could've predicted" makes it sound to me like you have been ordered by some unknown dark forces to cease development & updates immediately. However that doesnt make much sense now does it.


If you came out and stated that TDS 4 will not come to fruition due to changes in the software climate & that TDS 4 will not be effective due to these changes & along with that is the reason why we are no longer developing this product and we have had to switch our focus to a more long term software product. No One would have minded.

Believe me I know you are in the unique position to know where the industry is going, due to having seen where it has been since the start.

Thats why we all love the software, no one can argue this.
Your being there from the beginning is the reason we will remain with you to the end. This kind of knowledge doesn't grow on trees. DCS is well respected for this & more.

People are gonna hate me saying this but please Charge us what your worth. Produce the next generation of security software get the MONEY you guys deserve & remain on top.

Just next time try to put your self in the customers shoes and ask yourself would I be happy if this happened to me?

I just had to raise my customers cost for our services (not software related however subscriber based) this month and I asked myself this very same thing... would I be happy if this happened to me.

I sent a notice to ALL my customers explaining the improvements we have made to their services over the past few years and explaining in detail how & when the price increase would take effect. We have not had 1 phone call about this increase due to the way we handled it. It all boils down to informing your customer.

A Huge decision like this should not have been rushed into immediately no matter what the circumstances.

In closing I wish the best to DCS on thier new website & await your new security software with much anticipation.

Take Care

 

lostpw thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I should also add that TDS is the only 'non-conventional' program we've ever developed, and as such it is the only program that has ever/will ever put us in this kind of situation. In other words, this is the first and last decision of its kind, so now we're just looking forward to getting back to developing software for our customers.

Best regards,
Wayne

 

Wayne. While I fully understand your own financial reasons for pulling the plug on TDS. I can’t agree with your general statement on AT scanners: “Time to get another anti-trojan program? Don't bother; we wouldn't be discontinuing TDS if we felt there was still a place for anti-trojan scanners going into the future”.

Just last week I had to rescue a family members computer from various infections, and this was despite him having NIS 2005 installed and running. I downloaded trial versions of SpySweeper and TH to his computer. SpySweeper removed 15 items and TH a further 7. His PC went from being an unusable add machine to being usable once again.

But in the future, if we go by your prediction, and the likes of Anti-Trojan scanning software no longer exists, how could a none security aware, average PC user ever get their PC in working order again.

Prevention software such as PG and other behaviour analysis type programs are great in the hands of the right people on a nice clean PC. But the average PC user just won’t have a clue when it comes to making a decision on whether to let something run or not.

I’ve watched my kids. They wanted a program to run, so what ever security warning that may have appeared simply got the “Allow” button clicked because, hey! They wanted their program to run. They didn’t give two hoots to the fact that the software was installing services and other strange elements.

So the one great thing with any definition based AT/security program is it can be installed on any dim wits PC and be forgotten about, yet jump into action when required, and with the right settings, without any user interaction that may require a yes/no decision.

KAV may well be a winner when it comes to to spotting Trojans being executed or during a scan, but with the market share Symantec currently holds, Trojan problems will remain, problems, for a good while yet.

 

ReGen,
Reactive scanning (ie. detection of existing viruses/trojans) still certainly has a place and probably always will, as a part of a layered defence. However, anti-virus scanners now do all you need - you don't need an anti-trojan scanner as well. I've been in the anti-trojan industry since it first started, back then there were only a handful of remote access trojans - NetBus, Back Orifice, Sokets de Troie, and Acid Shivers were essentially the first years breed. Anti-virus scanners didn't seem to pay them much attention nor did they provide much detection in subsequent years, but the leading anti-virus scanners have since gotten their act into gear over the last few years to the point where anti-trojan scanners are no longer needed (the same point could be argued with anti-spyware scanners), as anti-virus scanners are providing stronger detection. If they didn't we'd have stronger grounds to continue developing TDS.

Best regards,
Wayne

 

Maybe that's YOUR opinion, but IMO he's right.

What have we reached with all the discussions?

Nothing, nada, niente, zip, zero.

Ok, a lot of people are angry, other people understand DCS's decision about TDS.

At this moment, after endless discussions, positive AND negative comments, take a break.

Life is going on and doesn't stop with the death of TDS.
Wayne's decision is definitive, and all our comments and/or complaints don't change anything.

Yes, it's sad that DCS surprised a lot of people in a negative way.
But, again, this thread is useless, we better look into the future instead of spoiling our time.
Wilders Security Forums main concern is: SECURITY and not a endless war in a battle you never win, not you, and not Wayne.

Best regards,

Smokey
One of the very first licensed TDS Operators

 

I can't believe I've joined the thread that never ends. But I wonder what Magnus, Andreas and Kevin think of your comments? Oh ya and the Ewido guys as well. I mean honest replies not attacks.

 

While what you say is true , hasnt it always been the case though that not all antivirus ARE the same when it comes to detection and niether are the ATs? and probably never will be.If EVERY AV and AT was as good as KAV, then choosing a product would be down to other preferences rather than just detection.What are the leading AVs?.If its commercial avs like symantec products that you refer to, then personally theres no way id run it without boclean also running in the background.Probably millions of people use avg because its free ,which while may offer adequate protection , is not (imo) in the same league at trojan detection as the ATs that are left (with the possibility of tauscan) being the exception.There is in my opinion only one av at present that i would run without the need of any adware or antitrojan and while it may be a "leading" av , id bet it certainly isnt the most popular.
ellison

 

"However, anti-virus scanners now do all you need - you don't need an anti-trojan scanner as well."

This is certainly wrong. AVs do not feature a memory scanner and, therefore, ATs are not redundant. What Wayne really wants to say is the following:

"Tobias Graf (Ewido) is a damn good coder. I can't make TDS-4 better than Ewido (in respect of signature-based scanning, generic unpacking etc.). And, therefore, it does not make sense from a business perspective to continue the development of a signature-based AT."

What DCS can do is to develop a behaviour based, pro-active solution. Let's wait and see whether they will develop something which is better than their former arch enemies' IDS (a2) ...

I hope that it will be at least as good. Users benefit from healthy competition.

 

I myself don't understand all the fuss about TDS-3, but there seems to be
some lack of communication and understanding both ways. DCS made good
on there free offer ; they didnt have to do that. They have walked me through getting my system hardened and directed me to a whole wealth
of other free software. You IT pro's know how much you charge a customer
to work on there systems. DCS helps people for free. Now on the part of
DCS; they should at least put there new product at a discount for a
limited time offer. There is to much GREED in the world allready. You get
enough for free why should you get it all for free. There is a war being waged
on every front and if you are on the front line don't complaine your computer
might die ; dont blame all your problems on DCS. I thought you guys understood the multilayered security. (Its all about UNITY) If you guys
are that good then where is all the good ideas to help make that good product. All I am reading is complaints. OH by the way TDS has some raelly
good faetures called Utillities that most other applications do not incorperate
into there software to help track down trojans and the such. I think you guys got a good deal with TDS considering all the extras that came along with it. You can still use TDS as a low level scanner to chase some of those uglies into the open or at least pin them down. I myself am in full agreament with
Wyane. At least they have been honest and thats good buiseness.

 

Just the right thing to do, Wayne. I'm surprised you need to be told that. Very, very, surprised.

That is offensive to both the public and all the other AT competitors, including Kevin. I say that it is offensive to the public, because it is a blatant lie. One layer of protection isn't enough and running two AVs at once isn't healthy. A dedicated AT is still very much needed to compliment an AV. Seems like you are trying to dissuade people from going to the competition (A2, Ewido, TH, BoClean, OA) before your new product arrives.

And isn't your new, secret, product that is "just around the corner" some sort of AT protection? Are you also telling everyone here that they should NOT buy it when it's finally out, because all that people really need is a quality virus scanner?

I'm not sure I buy that, unless you are comparing TDS vs. all the other products put together. TDS was your main product, which everyone needed along an AV. All your other products are secondary/voluntary. Let's take a look. PE is fine, but there are freeware products that are just as good (CurrPorts + SmartSniff; both free and not needing installation). I, frankly, don't know why anyone would pay for PE. Sorry. WormGuard will not protect a person from anything that a good virus scanner won't. PG is not for typical users and has a VERY limited market. Clearly, TDS was the main product and calling it "one of many" is just a way to convince gullible people of your decision.

Tom

 

All those utilities can be found in about a million freeware products on the web.

 

I can't dispute your findings because I have not ran such a test. But I feel very comfortable with worm protection using NOD32, as I would with KAV. Maybe you can run the test again, if it's been a while since you last did and re-check your findings.

But I personally have no urge to purchase WG. I am not saying that WG is a bad product, but worm protection is what an AV is supposed to provide.

I will also mention that I first check email while still on the server (and delete any spam or whatever may look suspicious) before downloading anything to my computer. I don't know why anyone these days would blindly download anything.

And what percentage of people using computers today actually know anything about security? 10%? 20%? 30%? Come, on. Most people just turn their computer on and that's it. It is absolutely not a product for the typical computer user.

PG, along with PE, must not be selling very well, which is most likely the reason why Wayne is offering a free licence to TDS users. I guess WormGuard is still selling, so he's not giving that away.

Tom

 

About 91% - and growing:

http://www.physorg.com/news5231.html

Rich

 

Hello richrf..
I think that article refers to pc users that have been online for quite a while (at least a year reading it critically) , and not the usual xmas rush of new users .Even then unless the users visits newsgroups or forums such as this one , i believe their idea of "security" would probably be the yahoo pop up blocker and probably not process guard.It is supposition, but i guess , that if 91% of computer users really knew about security then Kaspersky labs and DCS would probably be a lot bigger and more known to the general public than they already are.
ellison