The downsides of buying a new Mac

That troubled machine of mine presented a BSOD on first restart after clean fresh install of 1809, so no third party software involved. Bad driver? Probably, but that would have been provided by MS.

 

I'm not sure what happened with my Win 7 machine. I'd set it so I could manually update when suddenly it just wouldn't update. This went on for about a year and what with all the other Microsoft nonsense at the time I had more or less decided to ditch Windows quite a while ago. I doubt it's just people on security forums who suffer the most. I'd guess most people who are security conscious are just more aware of what's happening with their respective computers. The borking was becoming more and more frequent, particularly with pre-Win 10 systems it seemed to me.

I've run Ubuntu for years concomitantly with Windows and basically realised that Microsoft isn't the only OS that's worth running. Canonical updates are little and often and not problematical in my experience, possibly as the hardware (Lenovo) I run was designed to be Linux compatible from the outset. As for Bork Tuesday, my Win 7 machine had few issues, although I can't claim the same for Vista.

From what I can gather Bork Tuesday releases were causing a lot of problems for many people. It gets bad when basic updates can't be trusted and it becomes a regular occurrence that they caused so many problems. There has been some conjecture and speculation as to why this happened. It's either gross incompetence or negligence on behalf of MS. Either that or it was deliberately intentional.

Personally I think Microsoft became aware that their hegemony was slipping. Ballmer baselessly verbally attacked Google's Android and Canonical's Ubuntu operating systems accusing them of various things ostensibly because they were freeware. It was obvious that Android was going to become the most popular mobile platform and Chrome OS was also growing in popularity. Apple products have always been a bit niche so were not principally perceived as a threat. I'm not sure why Ballmer considered Ubuntu/Canonical a threat to MS for home computers as Ubuntu has barely 2% of the 'market' (if that in fact). It should also be noted that Shuttleworth (Canonical) didn't respond to Ballmer's pointless taunts.

Although I have no evidence, I believe many of the MS update borks were deliberately intended to convince people to upgrade to Win 10. I'm also fairly convinced that Win 10 will be a subscription service eventually. Win 10 may be a fine OS, let's face it, it has to be an improvement on Win 8. Having said that, a punch up the throat is probably preferable to running Win 8. It's just that I have an iMac now and don't need Windows anymore. I run Ubuntu (my personal favourite), macOS, Android and ChromeOS. And I'm very, very happy. So, to paraphrase Douglas Adams: 'So long Microsoft and thanks for all the phish'.

I no longer live in fear of updates.

 

Interesting, Dave, as the machine I have just installed Mint on is a Lenovo and it runs quicker than it ever did with any breed of Windows. That wasn't the case the first, second time, or even third time I tried installing Mint though. That's for another thread.

... Anyway, @Bill_Bright , for the record, I have two machines (one came with Win7 no Service Pack installed) now running the latest stable version of Win10. I don't hate Windows, but like I said in my first post, in this thread, "Is Windows that refined? I suggest not for all hardware."

Those two machines have largely been quite happy running Windows all along without any Windows updates causing any problems that I can remember. That is except of course, the forced Win10 upgrade on that one older machine.

I personally have no experience with Apple and if money was no object I'd consider trying their product/s, however now I'm using Linux Mint Mate, I may considering migrating one or both other machines at some point in the future.

 

Around the time when Windows 10 was released, Windows Update on both Windows 7 and Vista started taking a very long time to check for updates. It would appear to get stuck at Checking For Updates, but it was actually still running and eventually (sometimes after many hours) it would successfully finish checking for updates. It is possible that Microsoft sabotaged Windows Update in order to encourage people to ditch Windows 7 for Windows 10. I guess the actual cause willl never be known. There was a webpage which published a list of updates you could install manually to make to check for updates take a reasonable time again - around 10 minutes or less, but eventually Microsoft fixed Windows Update so there was no longer any need to manually install updates to speed things up.

Maybe not, but it has been my experiece on mine and customers computers that it's very rare for updates to cause issues. I can just go ahead and let Windows Update install every update it finds and know that it will work. Generally, at worst, every now an update may fail to install.

While I prefer Windows, I have used Linux from time to time and do like it.

Yes, that's possibly the case and it's noteworthy that Windows Update on 7 and Vista did not get fixed until after the free upgrade period had officially ended (alothugh to this day, MS still actually lets you upgrade for free). I actually like Windows 8.1 a lot, aside from the Start Screen, but of course there are plenty of Start Menu replacements which bring back the Windows 7 style Start Menu. I find that on some computers with slow processors, Windows 10 will be sluggish on them, but Windows 8.1 will be quite fast and no slower than Windows 7 or Vista was on the same computer. I don't like Windows 8 as much as I feel 8.1 works better. In my opion Vista (with both Service Packs installed), 7, 8.1 and 10 are all excellent operating systems. I liked XP at the time, but don't anymore as it feels so dated compared to more recent versions of Windows.

 

I'm pretty sure Canonical work with some OEM's to ensure hardware compatibility. Lenovo are the biggest manufacturers of laptops in the world, they are also Chinese. I believe the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology of the People's Republic of China run Ubuntu Kylin and have an agreement with Canonical. So there is an incentive for Chinese OEM's to make their hardware compatible with certain linux distros, particularly Ubuntu. So it's no surprise Mint runs well. In my experience when replacing Windows with Ubuntu on any computer it has drastically improved the performance. Linux is just so much lighter than Windows. And better IMO.

 

They may have fixed it, but mine never updated again and would just run for hours checking. It was probably this more than anything that convinced me to ditch Windows. Windows was a security nightmare even when it was up to date. An out of date system just isn't secure.

This is why I compared it to Russian roulette, it only takes one borker/bullet.

If I hadn't bought the iMac I would have bought a Lenovo box and ran Ubuntu.

If Win 8 had just been a better or more modern version of Win 7 I'd probably be running it now. I should thank Microsoft really as their devious incompetence gave me the incentive to buy a laptop preinstalled with Ubuntu. It was so liberating to not have to use MS that I realised buying a Mac was worth it. I'm still double happy lol.

 

But you are pointing fingers in the wrong direction!

If 100s of printing devices from 15 different manufactures work just fine, but Acme printer model ABC doesn't, is that Windows fault? No. If 100s of graphics cards from dozens of makers using AMD and NVIDIA GPUs all work just fine, but another card doesn't, is that Windows fault? No.

If it was up to the OS makers to ensure their OS was compatible with each and every piece of hardware, the installation files for those OSs would be many petabytes in size. BTW, that's how early DOS based versions of Windows worked. Not good.

So it is up to the various hardware makers to build their products so they comply with the various industry standards, and it is up to the hardware makers to ensure compatible drivers are available for W10. And BTW, it is Intel, the USB consortium and other hardware makers who make those standards, not Microsoft. MS may have a seat at the table, but they don't set the standards when it comes to hardware support. Not like Apple does with Apple hardware.

If Windows complies with the applicable industry standards (and since it works fine with millions and millions of different hardware combinations - it clearly does comply with those standards), but you attach an external drive and suddenly it doesn't work, how is that Windows fault? Its not.

That's great it is running W10. But it should be noted - again - it is the hardware makers responsibility to develop drivers for their legacy hardware if they want it to work with newer operating systems.

It is NOT the OS makers responsibility to make sure new operating systems are backwards compatible with 10 year old hardware. This just creates a security issue like it did before when big business insisted XP be compatible with all their legacy DOS/W95 era hardware and software. That forced MS to compromise security for legacy support and what happened? The bad guys moved in. But who got the blame? MS even though it was the bad guys perpetrating the offenses.

So Microsoft decided to look ahead and not back and put security before legacy support. And I applaud them for that.

I will bash Microsoft in one area though and that was in their compatibility checker during the free W7 to W10 period. They should have been more conservative and they should have reported many older (especially those upgraded from XP/Vista to W7) systems were NOT compatible. For as a shop owner, it is our experience those older systems had the most problems running W10. By far, most newer W7 system and systems that came with W8.x on them were the most trouble free.

But of course, MS got the blame for those older systems not being compatible too - even though again, the hardware makers should have developed W10 drivers that were compatible with W10 - they had over a year's notice. Of course, the hardware makers would rather consumers buy their newer products since they get $0.00 in return on their investments for developing drivers for their obsolete hardware.

BTW, I understand and accept Microsoft's desired to have only one OS to support. It takes tremendous amount of resources to maintain support for W7, W8 and W10 when there also is $0.00 in return on those superseded operating systems.

 

But Bill, I chose to except third party drivers when installing Linux Mint. I checked, none were installed. That means they (all drivers) either came included with the ISO I used, or they came from the official repository when I first updated the machine.

So who got it right, Bill? I might never receive support for that machine from Microsoft but it works fine now Linux is installed.

Anyway, this isn't about Linux vs Windows, so I'll bow out here.

Bye for now.

Thank you for your interest.

 

No it doesn't. Remember, almost all common hardware will work, at least with basic features, without any special drivers. Otherwise, how would our keyboards, mice, graphics cards, network adapters, monitors, drives, etc. work before the OS is even installed? Or when accessing the BIOS setup menu?

 

Bill, with no disrespect, I'm outta here. This thread was never meant as a Windows vs Linux on X hardware discussion. I'd be happy to continue that in my earlier thread, or a new thread should you feel like starting one.

In this thread, I am done.

Good day / night.

 

No CAD preinstalled also no bloat on a Mac. But it has MS office equivalents. Also I haven't claimed any superiority.

 

It wasn't until around April of 2017, that Microsoft finally fixed the issue.

I agree. I have upgraded plenty of systems which came preinstalled with Windows 7 to Windows 10, with no issues. Windows 10 run just as well as Windows 7, if not better. However for some older systems which came preinstalled with XP or Vista, I've seen issues with Windows 10. For example, Windows 10 running slowly, some older Intel WiFi cards cause audio latency issues with Windows 8.x/10 and Windows not having the needed video drivers (although you can usually manually install Vista or Windows 7 drivers).

 

@Bill_Bright the problem is not only about compatibility and 3rd party drivers, of course MS isn't all-knowing, must be dumb to bash MS only for that.
But when you push drivers, you must be damn sure they work fine, and sadly seems the Q&A department is lacking on that.

Another problem is those incessant new (unneeded and unwanted) features that are often botched and ruin the user'sexperience.
- WD on permanent on-access scan that slow the system responsiveness, where you need 3rd party tools to fully disable it.
- Core Isolation, enabled by default, that can't be turned off.
- Exploit Guard that is even less understandable than EMET.
- Protected Folders dependant of WD, where some settings are locked...
Etc...etc..

MS keep adding bloat, I hated Win7 in favor of the newly introduced win10 but now I start thinking win7 was more convenient and not bloated.

You can defend MS as much as you want, I see no problem on that, but you have to recognize their failures too.
Sadly, I don't see you responding much to the botched features arguments, probably because there is no possible excuses for that...

 

Probably, but they never fixed it for me.

 

I agree - sorta. But first, that's a totally different issue. Second, is it really Microsoft's job to make sure those drivers, which for the record, are provided by the hardware makers, work with the applicable hardware?

How is Microsoft supposed to do that? Buy or somehow collect samples from all around the world, of each of the 1000s and 1000s pieces of hardware out there? And then where and how will they test them? The testing facility would have to cover acres and be staffed by a whole bunch of techs - and this testing would have to be done on 100s and 100s of different computers configured in every conceivable way.

Is that really what you expect? I mean it would be great but how would that be possible for any company? How could they do that and not be forced to raise the cost of W10 exponentially?

No. If a hardware maker is going to provide Microsoft updated drivers to be pushed out with Windows Update, it is up to the hardware maker to ensure their drivers work.

Sadly what I see in this thread is politicians/little kids (same difference) who repeatedly and can only defend their own extreme positions by pointing fingers elsewhere. "Well, Johnny did it first!". Or "They started it". They'd bring up the kitchen sink being the wrong color if they thought no one would notice.

This thread is about "The downsides of buying a new Mac" yet through out, the argument put forth by many of the Apple supporters, including you, has been "Well Microsoft did this" or "Windows does that". That's why I have been defending MS and Windows.

And sadly, many of those arguments are just nonsense and totally unrelated to the topic - like the drivers issue and now your comment about WD. What does WD have to do with the "The downsides of buying a new Mac"? First, I sure want WD to be scanning everything in real time. Second, it does not affect responsiveness for the vast majority of users. And third, if you don't like WD, don't use it! It will gracefully step aside when you install a 3rd party "real-time" scanner.

 

Are you serious, of course it is, I have a colleague who get his system broken because WinUpdate loaded the wrong drivers Loool. And he was not the only one suffering of this.

I don't ask MS to test every drivers in the universe, I want them stop doing things half-way.

And to the distributor to do some double-checking or optimize the delivery.

.
You brought your MS propaganda in the discussion, as usual, don't complain now.

I shouldn't have to do this. MS should give me the choice to want it installed or not from the start.
I don't use 3rd party real-time AV, I hate anything scanning my system over and over. I use more complex and efficient tools but they won't be registered as AV so WD will not be disabled, should I have to waste time to Google a way to fully turn it off? No.

 

It is exceptionally rare for drivers installed by Windows to cause issues. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. But it in my experience on many computers running Windows 10, it is very rare. I don't even have driver issues on thirteen year old laptops running Windows 10. Microsoft is doing their best to avoid drivers which cause problems.
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/12/19/driver-quality-in-the-windows-ecosystem/
It's worth noting that in that blog post, thay say "there are several million active drivers in the Windows 10 ecosystem." With that many drivers it's understandable that there can be issues with some of them.

Perhaps, MS should have made it so drivers updates are optional. But, at least they are trying to reduce issues with bad drivers.

Are there fewer issues with dirver in Linux? I don't know, as I've rarely used it.

I don't see how this is even an issue. I've had to Google how to diable Windows Defender too. It's not hard to disable it and anyone who has the knowledge of how to use more advanced security solutions, certainly knows to do a Google search to find out how disable it. If Microsoft made it very difficiult to disable WD, it would be a different story, but they don't. Making WD run if there isn't any other antivirus installed makes sense to me. It helps ensure that users have some protection against malware, rather then letting inexperienced users permanently disable it and have no malware protection.

 

I should have the choice to use WD or not, it could be asked during installation instead of shove down my throat... Are you guys willing to guinea pigging all the bloat?

Just disabling it via WDSC is just half way, you have more to do to shut it off, and even if you do, there is that constant reminder that it is turned off. Couldnt they just put one button and all WD is gone? No would be to simple..

 

I don't remember getting any reminders when I disabled it by Group Policy. I would like for it to be easy to disable WD as I never use it. But in my opinon, it makes sense for it not to be easy for non advanced users to do it. Otherwise some people would don't know how to avoid getting infected would just diable it and have no protection and end up getting infected. As it is now, if they disable it via its UI, it gets enabled again in time, or when they reboot.

 

the tray icon yellow sign.

sure but should be opt-in during installation, not the way it is now.

 

Mac users I just received an update on iWorks. Downloaded and installed Fast and Flawlessly on the Mac.

Pages
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207243

Keynote
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207247

Numbers
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207244

 

Wow! So you "expect" perfection 100% of the time - no exceptions.

And did every user around the world using that exact same piece of hardware as your colleague end up with a broken system? No (or the bashers would have taken that news viral). So is that still Microsoft's fault? Well, according to you it is.

LOL "All the bloat". LOL Yeah right.

I don't disagree with you on this, but I do agree with Microsoft's decision to enable WD by default and to make it difficult to disable (except by installing a 3rd party solution).

Why? Because if people disable WD without having a 3rd party solution installed, and then they get infected, who are they, the MS bashing bloggers, and the wannabe journalists in the IT Press going to blame? Microsoft, that's who. They did it for years with XP even though Microsoft was forced by Congress and EU to leave out AV code in XP and even though it was the bad guys infecting the computers. Microsoft always gets blamed for anything that goes wrong - even when clearly not their fault.

So Microsoft would much rather be bashed by people like you for enabling WD for your protection, then to be bashed for allowing naive users to become infected. And I applaud them for that.

Does it mean experienced enthusiasts - who think they are smarter than the badguys and all the security experts around the world who urge all users to use a real-time malware scanner - might be inconvenienced a little? Perhaps. Oh well - too bad. My advice to them is to use Linux. Or Apple if they are so unhappy with Windows - especially since Apple products are so flexible.

 

Oh wow!!!

 

Yep, got them this morning.

 

@Bill_Bright

It is MS to check that their OS detect the right drivers for the right hardwares, if not they shouldn't force it and at least tell they don't have it. It is not so difficult to do.
As if you agree your pharmacist to give you the wrong medicine for your sickness lol...seriously...

if you don't see bloat in win10, you seriously need glasses...stop fanboying please for a moment...
Indeed Candy Crush Saga and all the other crap are so needed... Loooooool

About WD if a user disable it, it is his fault not MS, but he should have the right to do it easily, if he does need or like it.

And for your info, I do prefer Linux now but I still "depend" of Windows for work...