looking for a cheap ups

Discussion in 'hardware' started by mantra, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    hi
    i'm lookig for a cheap ups for an old pc

    yesterday in a big store i found only trust ups
    TRUST Oxxtron 1000VA UPS for 75€ & TRUST Oxxtron 1300VA Management UPS for 110€ and some mediacom

    do you know them ?
    are you toys or worse or do their job?
    what can i buy for around 100€ in europe , outside eaton
    thanks
     
  2. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    have you seen some review about APC Back-UPS ES 700VA ?
     
  3. kronckew

    kronckew Registered Member

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    try ebay...
     
  4. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Do note that cheap UPSs should be avoided like cheap PSUs should be avoided. The problem with cheap UPSs is two-fold. First, the primary purpose for getting a UPS should be the automatic voltage regulation they provide. Backup power during a power outage is a minor "bonus" feature. The better UPS have much better regulation and anomaly suppression ensuring better quality power is being sent to your connected components.

    Second, better UPSs will have faster and concise cutover to battery power. Since the ATX power supply standard requires ATX computer power supplies maintain ("hold-up") power during power outages that last a mere 17ms or less. Note that is much faster than humans can see as "flickers" in lights. This means an extremely quick "dip" (opposite of spike) that lasts 20ms is more than enough to kill power to your computer - which is not good - without you, as a human, even being aware a drop in power occurred. A "good" UPS with AVR will detect and adjust/regulate and/or cutover power to battery if necessary in about 4ms.

    Also note that the larger UPSs tend to have some of the nicer features such as an LCD display, USB interface for monitoring, and of course, longer run times and support for larger loads.

    APC is actually my preferred brand. I have not seen a review on that APC specifically but suspect it will be fine. Note that 700VA equates to ~420W of load it can support. You did not state the specs for this old PC, but I suspect 700VA is plenty.
     
  5. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    hi
    thanks
    thanks for the information about APC
    what's about Eaton Protection Station 500-800 VA UPS ?
    thanks Bill
     
  6. cruelsister

    cruelsister Registered Member

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    If you really need a UPS don't ever cut corners. As Bill mentioned above, go with APC! It's the only brand I would ever consider (and I have one).
     
  7. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    I am not familiar with Eaton UPS so cannot speak for them. Do note that 500VA equals ~325W which is probably fine for the computer alone but again, you have not provided your specs so that is just an assumption.

    Note I have an APC 1500VA UPS on this system and I use it to protect this system, all my network gear and two 24" monitors.
     
  8. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    hi
    the psu is 600w but all the psu are disproportionate in general , it worked with the eaton 500
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
  9. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    It is the demand of the computer that matters, not the PSU size. This is because the computer (motherboard, RAM, drives, fans, graphics card, CPU) will demand from the PSU what it needs, not what the PSU can deliver.

    So if the computer demands 300W, it will pull from the PSU 300W regardless if the PSU is a 350W PSU, a 600W PSU, or a 1000W PSU. And the PSU will pull from the wall only what the computer demands, plus a little more due to PSU inefficiency. With a decent PSU, efficiency will be 80% or better. So a 300W demand from the computer will result in ~360W being pulled from the wall - again regardless if a 600W or 1000W PSU. That extra ~60W will be wasted in the form of heat.
     
  10. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    hi
    i don't know exactly the hardware like cpu , motherboard video card and so on
    what do you suggest ?
    if APC Back-UPS ES 700VA won't be sufficient what could be happen? and how can i know it?
    i know i should make a calculation about what my computer needs but honestly i don't know , the monitor is a new nec and keep 25wat
    thanks Bill
     
  11. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    You might use Speccy (from the makers of CCleaner) to learn all about your computer and publish your specs here.
    1. In Speccy, click File, and then click Publish Snapshot.
    2. In the Publish Snapshot dialog box, click Yes to enable Speccy to proceed.
    3. Speccy creates the profile of your system specs and displays a link in a second Publish Snapshot window. Click Copy to Clipboard.
    4. Paste that link into your reply here.
    Note that Speccy does not collect or publish any personal information. It also will not tell you what PSU you are using. You will have to look at the label on the PSU for that.
    First, even without knowing your specs, I am sure 700VA is enough. You would have to be running some significant games or stress test programs to the max to push the limits of a 700VA UPS.

    But to answer your question, you would know because during a power outage, if the UPS could not carry the load, the computer would shutdown.
     
  12. kronckew

    kronckew Registered Member

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    i bought my power walker pure sine wave AVR 1000w ups to replace a cheap belkin smaller square wave one that failed after a power failure.
    • Pure Sine Wave Output.
    • Super smart charger to shorten charging time.
    • Built-in boost and buck AVR.
    • Auto restart while AC is recovering.
    • Off-mode charging.
    • Cold start function.
    • USB communication port.
    • RJ-11, RJ-45 surge protection.
    • Includes monitoring software.
    • Comprehensive LCD display for status view
    been working fine for over 2 years now. they do come in smaller flavours.
     
  13. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Pure sine wave output is almost a gimmick. For nearly 3 decades "step approximation" (APC's term) or simulated sine wave outputs have been the norm for UPS output used on mission critical systems (computers and servers) with no problems. "Pure" sine wave UPSs were available, but were very expensive and really only needed for critical medical monitoring equipment and life-support systems.

    The recent push for "pure" sine wave output UPS for computer systems is only due to the costs for such units finally becoming competitive. And I say "almost" a gimmick because it was/is a "marketing" ploy only. No one "needs" a pure sine wave output for their computers, network gear, monitors, big screen TVs or home theater systems - yet that is exactly what the marketing weenies for those products want us to believe - in spite of 30 years of history proving otherwise.

    I note today's power supplies are MUCH MORE tolerable of any anomaly stepped-approximation might present than PSUs from 10, 15 or 30 years ago. Yet those old technology supplies did just fine. PFC circuits are too - before anyone mentions them.

    That said, I have nothing against pure sine wave outputs and because the prices have come down and become competitive, if everything else is equal, I will likely look for a pure sine wave UPS next time I need one - if that ever happens.

    I note my oldest UPS is an APC 900VA Smart UPS that is 25 years old and still going strong. Yes, I have had to replace the batteries a few times over the years, but that is just part of regular maintenance. And speaking of replacing the batteries, I never - as in NEVER EVER buy replacement batteries from the UPS maker. I buy from several on-line battery suppliers - which one depends on who has the best price (including shipping) that day. A SLA (sealed lead-acid) battery is nothing special and as long as you get the right voltage, the same or larger aH (amp-hour) rating, the right connector (typically F1 or F2) and the physical dimensions are the same (and they typically comply with industry standards) the brand on the battery does not matter. In fact, it is likely the OEM supplier buys their batteries from those same makers.
     
  14. Reality

    Reality Registered Member

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    Everything Bill said I agree with. My smart UPS 1000 is said to be "line interactive" which was sort of seen (quality wise) as 1/2 way between pure sine wave and stepped which I later found out was not as important as was made out. Unfortunately no RJ-11, RJ-45 surge protection. Im rural and have dirty power issues a lot. No LCD on my UPS but a number of individual leds. Periodically I'll hear the UPS momentarily flick over to battery if there's a dip or other short power issue otherwise there's an alarm that sets off. It also has USB for software.
     
  15. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    No, sorry that is not correct. "Line interactive" has nothing to do with the "shape" (stepped or pure sinewave) of the output waveform. And pure or stepped is not an indication of UPS "quality".

    Line interactive simply means the AVR (automatic voltage regulation) circuits are constantly monitoring and regulating ("interacting" with) the voltage as necessary WITHOUT kicking over to battery back up. This is a very good thing as it ensures minor anomalies are not passed on to our computers but it also means the UPS is not constantly switching over between line and battery power. A line interactive UPS will attenuate minor high voltage anomalies (without modifying the waveform) and can use the batteries to "boost" the voltage of minor low voltage anomalies (again, without modifying the waveform) and without kicking over to full backup power. For more severe surges and spikes, or dips (opposite of spikes) and sags (opposite of surges) or brownouts (long duration sags), the UPS will cutover to battery.

    What this means is a line interactive UPS always has the inverter/converter portion of the UPS powering the equipment allowing a much faster response to anomalies and power failures than a simple (and budget) "standby UPS" which provides no voltage regulation (and little to no surge and spike protection). It also means the AVR can be doing its thing while the batteries are being charged. That is not possible with a standby UPS (at least not until the batteries have charged to a decent percentage).

    Line interactive UPS still have cutover (transfer) times when full battery backup power is required, but these cutover times tend to be much faster, ~4ms, than a "standby" UPS. ~4ms is plenty fast to prevent any interruption as I noted above.

    Alternative to a "line interactive" UPS is the "online" UPS. These are very expensive and inefficient in terms of power consumption because they are always using the batteries to power the connected devices. And since they are always using the batteries, there is no cutover time. The "online" UPS is similar to how a notebook with the charger connected works. The notebook is actually running off its battery full time. You can pull the charger plug and nothing happens because there is no cutover time.

    So a line interactive UPS is really a very nice (and affordable) compromise between a basic standby UPS and a online UPS.
     
  16. Reality

    Reality Registered Member

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    Thanks Bill for the correction, and a good explanation as well.
     
  17. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Any time!
     
  18. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    hi Bill
    what do you think about UPS APC Back-UPS 1400VA ?
    can't find a review
    thanks
     
  19. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    I have no personal experience with 230VAC UPS. But I have lots of experience with APC UPS and currently have a 120VAC APC Back-UPS 1500VA and it works great. I have no reason to believe that 1400VA will not be great too.

    I did find the APC Back-UPS BX 1400VA on Amazon UK and clearly, the vast majority of users are very happy with it.

    I do note that some UPS (regardless of maker) state in the user manuals they do not have "user" replaceable batteries. This is typically not really true (except for rack mounted UPS). It may be an attempt for the maker to get more money from you (by using their more expensive OEM batteries), or to make sure it is done correctly and safely to avoid dangerous mistakes (and lawsuits) - or both. But with a little care and typically a #2 Phillips screwdriver, anyone can replace the batteries. Usually the larger UPS use more than 1 "cell" or smaller battery like this strapped together to make a larger battery. That is they use 2 - 4 cells (single batteries) to make up one large battery. These individual batteries may be strapped in parallel, series, or in series-parallel to make the final desired output voltage.

    Don't let that scare you. All batteries terminals are labeled with their polarity (+ or -). There will only be two wires from the UPS going to the batteries - and they are always different colors and typically red (+)and black (-). Undue those two wires, then note how the individual cells are strapped together so you can do the same with the new batteries. Save the straps (small jumper cables) to use on the new batteries.

    Replacing the batteries is the one big down side to all UPSs. The batteries need replacing every 3 - 4 years. Just make sure you match specs, as I noted above.
     
  20. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    hi Bill
    sadly the rear is like this https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/E910/APC_BX1400UI_02.png
    and i can't plug my monitor or other hardware ,only the pc
    can't find any adapter here in my town
    thanks
     
  21. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Well, their techs are able to get in there to swap batteries, therefore with the right tools, you can too. There are other notable brands. I've used CyberPower and Tripp Lite and like them too.

    There certainly are adapters available for your monitor and other devices. If your monitor uses a detachable power cord, you can probably just swap that out.
     
  22. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    Hi Bill
    i will try to find them ,but it really more handy same unit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf5GbFIME9c&feature=youtu.be&t=5m1s (can't add this link with enter media url )

    but unit should be always on even when my pc is off , because i noticed ups the power button tend to broke

    thanks BiLL
     
  23. Rico

    Rico Registered Member

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    I recently got the APC BRG1300, I always read the manual! It had no mention of, plugging in, to fully charge, without load. Was not in literature, yet tech said to do this
     
  24. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    hi
    than manual can change between nations, i mean the have 1 manual but when you buy the product in another nation you find several differents like i post above
    according the apc in west europe the unit should be like the video of youtube but when i have have opened the box , i found out that's different
     
  25. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Some do, some don't Some make no mention of load. I think it depends on the lawyer approving the verbiage at the time the documentation is written.

    I have never seen a SLA battery come from the factory that did not have at least 50% charge on it already. I think they just don't want you to put the UPS into service without it starting out with a full charge. It is not for any technical reason - just so you don't start out with a complaint the unit is not holding or have the expected run time. It is not going to hurt anything, one way or the other. If the battery cannot hold the load, the intelligence in the UPS will prevent it from powering your connected devices via the batteries until a sufficient charge is obtained.
     
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