HoizonData Rollback Rx

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by Rico, Dec 29, 2014.

  1. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Imaging Specialist

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    Appster, in my testing of RBrx v10.x and even earlier with v9.1... the return of a HOT image to an existing RBrx protected system, without returning the MBR to a known "standard" state (non-RBrx MBR) has always resulted in a non-BOOTable system. The reason is the RBrx MBR does not have the proper structures to work with to complete its special BOOT sequence following the restore of a HOT image. Following the restore of a COLD image (all sector), the proper structures are in place.

    In the days of v9.1, when a HOT image was done, an RBrx system would always provide a "standard" MBR to the imager during the process (if it asked for it). As a result, the MBR included in the image was NOT the RBrx special MBR. When restoring a HOT v9.1 image ONLY to a RBrx system, it would also fail to BOOT properly due to the presence of the left over RBrx MBR. If you restored the HOT image again and asked the imager to restore the MBR that it has in the image, it would restore the "standard" MBR in the image that RBrx gave it during the HOT process. This would provide for a successful BOOT of Windows, albeit with a neutered RBrx.

    The difference between the v9.1 HOT image and the v10.x HOT image is one has a "standard" MBR in it, the other has the special RBrx MBR in it.

    The follow-on problem with using RBrx v10.x is your HOT image does not have the proper MBR in it to allow for a successful BOOT. So now, without COLD imaging, a 3rd application is needed to provide that "standard" MBR for BOOTing. Mabolito :p uses BOOTice to perform that function... there are many other apps that can do the same. As you can see, the problem now with v10.x is that the poor user now needs really good understanding of THREE low level system applications just to try and recover a HOT backup of his RBrx protected system. All three... RBrx, the imager, and a BOOT block (MBR) editor, are all pretty dangerous programs on their own. You select the wrong option and you just may be toast. This is not an environment I would wish upon any "normal" user. Others like Mabolito are much more familiar with system intricacies and feel pretty comfortable with using these THREE low level system tools... but "normal" users, I think you're just asking for trouble.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  2. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Imaging Specialist

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    Not really. The purpose of the test was to see if there was any (and the operative word here is) EASY way to recover a broken RBrx system with a HOT image in hand, not whether it was possible or not. See the last paragraph in the post above for how I view this whole process...
     
  3. roady

    roady Registered Member

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    I'm a 'normal' user,but even if I was as experienced as Mabolito (or you) :),I wouldn't see any benefit in using a IFW hot backup or restore with RBX installed.....it's simply not worth the hassle when cold imaging works like a breeze.....so far,cold restore hasn't failed here (yet):D
     
  4. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Imaging Specialist

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    Roady, I tend to agree with you but many users can't take the system time to COLD image, and the time & storage size to image tends to grow quite a bit with "dynamic" volumes (those with many changes/additions/deletions over time).

    If a user can chop out a chunk of time & storage to do that... it's fine.
     
  5. manolito

    manolito Registered Member

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    The benefit is a significantly shorter time to create a hot image (cold all sector images take more than 20 times longer on my machine), plus the convenience that I can schedule incremental backups. If the interval between incrementals is short enough you could even call them "snapshots" as AX64 is doing...


    Cheers
    manolito
     
  6. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Okay, I have a question for Manolito and some other RBx supporters. I run my business off my two computers. My clients rely on our service and 8 people rely on it for their income. We use no paper, everything, scheduling, financial records is on the computers. So I need to have reliable back up and restore. So my question is if you were in the same situations, would you rely on RBx and how you back up your computers, to protect everything?
     
  7. Cruise

    Cruise Registered Member

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    I wouldn't, and most definitely not in your situation (very large C-volume, so all-sector backups would be a real pita)! Then again, I'm no longer an Rx supporter. ;)
     
  8. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Imaging Specialist

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    Hi Pete! From my testing to date (and I'm not suggesting anyone do this exclusively), using Rollback RX backed up by COLD imaging of your entire important system aspects should be able to protect your data as well as any solution. Having said that, though... a system administrator would need the additional dedicated system time and storage COLD imaging requires to perform this. Many do not have this time.

    You appear to be using Macrium (bulletproof imaging) and AX64 (apparently reasonable snapshotting) to accomplish this with your systems. I've never completely understood (lack of knowledge, mostly) how RIR fits into your production scheme... maybe it doesn't, maybe it's just handy to have around.

    The newly arrived Drive Cloner v6 (Beta only, RBrx snapshot compatible), with its ability to HOT image complete Rollback RX-protected systems, just may fill this time and storage anomaly void in protecting systems. It has a scheduler and needs some tweaks to make its INCREMENTAL and DIFFERENTIAL a li'l more robust in time, but it's headed in the right direction to be the accompanying tool along with Rollback RX to accomplish what your needs may be.

    The closest thing to ONE tool being able to do all that's required is still AX Time Machine... but as we all know, it's basically still in BETA as far as all the bells and whistles we might require.

    I know this didn't answer your question completely, BUT... for me (because I have the admin and system time), and knowing that Rollback would work on my system (this is important as many times it appears to be system dependent), The RBrx/COLD imaging of choice would clearly provide for the fastest snapshotting capability (if this is a requirement) and system protection required for my system management. If Drive Cloner v6 eventually pans out to be a reliable, predictable tool, that would clearly be my COLD imaging replacement.

    At the moment I'm still testing just about every option available but am primarily using Macrium Pro and AX Time Machine for my bulletproof backup and snapshot requirements. There's just too many options here and they're just system and admin dependent to say there's a one-size fits all.
     
  9. pvsurfer

    pvsurfer Registered Member

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    Well, I guess you can call me an RBrx supporter; using it ever since v7 and still going strong. But (as Cruise points out) your very large C-drive doesn't lend itself to cold-raw backups, which I wouldn't be without! So at the present time, I wouldn't if I were you. That said, once DCrx6 is finalized....
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  10. roady

    roady Registered Member

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    But that's the purpose RolbackRX already serves on my system.......so I don't need a quick imagebackup,but a reliable 1 with RollbackRX. :)

    No,of course not....if I was in your situation,I wouldn't run RBRX or neither AX64,but a hypervisor with virtual client operating systems and scheduled snapshots of those vitual OS and hypervisor to a NAS or tape streamer.....:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  11. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Bingo. With the improved technology from recent years there are so many options, MANY of them even good, that it can make one's brain ache to decide what is unique and best for YOUR system. Now days I can even recover from my own mistakes, how neat is that (as long as I can realize that I MADE a mistake to begin with :oops: ).

    Acadia
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  12. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Imaging Specialist

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    manolito said:
    plus the convenience that I can schedule incremental backups. If the interval between incrementals is short enough you could even call them "snapshots" as AX64 is doing...

    Be careful what you say my friend... you DO NOT have a reliable backup with Rollback RX. If that RBrx protected volume goes up in smoke at that time, you have nothing but maybe the last COLD image of that system. Mabolito has everything up to that scheduled INCREMENTAL snapshot to rely on for reconstruction.

    Rollback is NOT a backup.
     
  13. manolito

    manolito Registered Member

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    The difference is that the incrementals made by the imager are stored on an external HDD, and they can always be restored by booting from the recovery CD which the imager provides.

    The basic misunderstanding still seems to be that some folks see RBRX as a backup software. IT IS NOT.
    Using RBRX has not changed my backup habits at all. I still make an incremental at least every other day. I start a new full backup after about 15 incrementals, and I keep 3 backup generations before I overwrite an older backup. And I swap the external target HDDs regularly.

    RBRX serves a different purpose. I can try out obscure software, I can play with the registry, I can do all kinds of potentially dangerous things (like analyzing malware) and knowing that I can go back in a flash. AX64 hot restore doesn't come close to the speed of RBRX in this respect. Another thing I use RBRX for is fast switching between different system configurations. I have my "normal" configuration, I have a "fast" configuration where all non-essential services and drivers are disabled, and I have a "secure" configuration which hides my ass on the Internet. These snapshots are locked so they will not be automatically deleted. I tried to achieve the same thing using VMs, but RBRX works much better for this purpose.

    With this approach I do not see the need to have image backups which include the Rollback snapshots. All the efforts to make this possible (like Drive Cloner V6) look to me like trying to make RBRX do something it was not designed for.


    Cheers
    manolito


    //EDIT
    Oops, the Frog was faster than I...
     
  14. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    As a confession, let me say that I am not a user of Rollback, but as a lurker on the Internet, Rollback truly does have a miserable record, at least in the past. OK, with all programs, even Macrium, ShadowProtect, built-in Windows, etc., you will find failures: SHOW ME ONE PROGRAM THAT DOES NOT!! But if you search the Net you will find too many folks belly-aching about Rollback.

    That is not to say the company can't continue to improve the program but for gosh sakes, how much longer must we wait until it reaches a real level of reliability?! Quite frankly, I hope that it does, that would make it yet another excellent option which would force my favorite companies even further on their toes.

    Acadia
     
  15. roady

    roady Registered Member

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    Sorry for the confusion guys ....I meant a reliable IFW backup with RBRX included.....Every 3-4 days I update my baseline and do a cold backup with IFW.....I use Rollback mainly for software testing which requires a reboot...
     
  16. Cruise

    Cruise Registered Member

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    The thing is that Rollback Rx works wonderfully (I would say magically) and instills a sense of omnipotence with the user until the day that it totally hoses your system! Before becoming a RB v9.1 user I made hot image backups (full and diffs) of my system on a daily basis to protect my documents, which are changed daily. It was HDS' false claims and misrepresentation that 'sold' me on RB. At the time, their marketing blogs represented RB as all one needed to remain secure against any system malfunction or infection, and I bought their propaganda. So I figured I was perfectly safe in reducing my hot image backups from daily to weekly, which I did.

    For over a year my RB system worked perfectly and the reduced work-load of no longer making daily image backups gave me more time to do other things. Then one morning my system wouldn't boot-up, not even to RB's Boot Console! My W7 system, which was running smoothly before I shut it down the night before was now bricked. I tried every method that Windows recovery provides in order to boot up to my current system or to salvage my documents, but it was to no avail. My last image backup was 5-days old and it was my last resort. I was able to restore my system (thanks to Pandlouk's advice in a thread re Hot Imaging with RB), uninstalled RB and didn't reinstall it (once bitten, twice shy). I spent days reconstructing lost documents!

    I have since moved on, but I still think RB is a magical program - when it works.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  17. appster

    appster Registered Member

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    Well I 'bit down on the bullet' with my first attempt at restoring my RBxp system. Unless I did that all of the preceding discussions are just words with no assurance that I could restore my RB system. Well I booted the system with my AOMEI Backupper boot disk, restored the cold sbs image which I just made and (miracle of miracles) my system restored perfectly. No problems whatsoever booting to RB's sub-console, then into Windows, and my 4 RB snapshot were there and operational! So until DCrx6 becomes a proven way to get similar (reliable) results with hot backups, I'll stick with what I now know works. :)
     
  18. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    For being sure that your cold backup really works, you'll have first to zero out (or scramble) the surface of the partition and then perform a restore.
    Some programs (e.g. IFW/IFL/IFD) when creating a sector by sector backup of the partition do not ignore the type and the file table of the partition, and when restoring an RBRX tree can create problems.

    Panagiotis
     
  19. appster

    appster Registered Member

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    Hello, I've seen your name referenced by Cruise and other posters here. Now understanding that I'm a noob, is your post to suggest that my cold sbs backup and restore procedure may not be dependable?
     
  20. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Yes, for being 100% sure that the backup/restore is reliable you should delete the partition, zero out the empty space and then perform a restore. If after the restore everything is fine, you'll know can rely on AOMEI sector per sector backups.

    Panagiotis
     
  21. ArchiveX

    ArchiveX Registered Member

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    Rely your business on RollBack Rx?
    No way!
    Never again!
     
  22. twl845

    twl845 Registered Member

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    Pete, Is that tongue in cheek?
     
  23. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Absolutely not. If someone says they think Rollback is a great application, then to me that is a good test.

    pete
     
  24. pvsurfer

    pvsurfer Registered Member

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    Pete, as I recall you were a RB user a while back. Are you trying to get a feel for version 10.2's reliability or what?

    pv
     
  25. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    I used RBX way back when had my XP desktops. Then I joined the group of users who's machines got hosed. But also that was before I had the business so it's been quite a while.

    It's an intriguing program, but saving stuff outside of the view of windows file system, is just an accident waiting to happen.

    Pete
     
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