Win98 trashed by DD (again)

Acronis's solgan "compute with confidence" is such a joke. How do I feel when I am about to >Commit DD to do common operations? Whatever the opposite of confidence is-- fear or is it courage. Yes, courage I had carefully read everything, done everything; double checked that all the preparations were correct. OK DD\OSS >Commit\reboot.... no warnings but everything trashed; oh well, reformat hard drive and start over I've got nothing better to do. Maybe, this time I can figure out a proceedure that will allow me to realize the dream of dual booting.

To summarize, first I clean installed win98 on a new 80G hard drive. Unfortunately, I loaded in about 10 applications over the last week so maybe DD choked on some registry entry or something. there was nothing (for example Virus Protection) running in the background that I knew of.

I was able to create 4 new partitions and move win98 over to the middle.
So I had: 1.8G fat16 primary (want to put DOS6.2 here)
30G fat32 primary with win98 working on it
14 an 30G empty logicals for data

OK I am ready to try and install DOS.
Boot to win98 from OSS loader then run OSS from desktop icon.
Make a >boot from "floppy" (operating system in big right hand window)
right click on "floppy" to get to OpSys\Properties\Partitions
Set working win98 C to hidden
Set 1.8G to active
Go to (details) use defaults-- Use dos 7.1 and allow LBA are checked
>Reboot? courage.... >Reboot

All right, floopy boots the DOS install disk. I explore around a little seems to be on the 1.8G partition.
Run >setup
Get message windows will have to format C: (before installing any files)
Thought about this for a long time, guess I should have bailed.
Decided this must be the only path to install dual boot, courage.
Completes install, looks good >dir shows all the files.

Reboot
Get message "Acronis loader fatal error, boot drive partition not found"
Damn it all trashed again!
Boot DD from recovery cd
Now have -1.991G primary with dos62 on it and 72G (the rest) unallocated.

So, OSS reboot to an active 1.8G partition formats 1.991G and wipes out my win98 boot partition info.

Ran wizard recover partition... takes 30 minutes... of course can not give me back win98, (does restore 2 logicals at the end (big deal)).

So, where did I go wrong (other than having (slight) confidence in Acronis)?
On thing I suspected was the 1.8G number DD displays. You know the old problem 65,536 clusters * 32,768 byte\cluster = 2,096,832KB = 2,047.6875MB. So, i was concerned the so called 1.8G partition was actually bigger. that was the reason I used 1.8 not 2.0 and besides win98 was working on the 2ed partition so it must be below the 2G limit, right?

Formating? I have been wondering if in DD when you create a new say fat16 partition. Do you then have to also format it as fat16 (even tho DD now reports it as fat16? I would assume formating would be part of creating. I DID NOT >format the 1.8G before the above disaster. In light of what happened this could be the answer (could Acronis interface be that stupid). I had thought about formating the first 1.8G partition as a seperate operation, but figgured that could also trash the working win98 partition.

Anyway, DD\OSS has wiped-out both my new Vista notebook and my old win98 desktop. So I am free to experiment around with clean op system installs, in the hope of one day being able to dual boot. TBC... I'm not giving up after spending all this time.

(I am pretty bitter about this, but getting used to it)

mangoman

 

mangoman,

Having read your other post, I can certainly understand your attitude toward TI. However, whether you use TI or some other image based backup program, it would make things easier.

The general procedure I use when creating a multi-boot system is to install the first OS and then make an image backup. This lets me return to that state and start over if I need to without having to reinstall. Once I get the second OS installed and working correctly, I make another image. Then I install the third, and so forth.

Also, you have not mentioned anything about reactivating OSS. Normally after a new OS is installed, the MBR is overwritten and OSS needs to be reactivated to get the menu back and allow multi-booting.

I think I would wipe the start of drive and start over. Setup the 1.8GB FAT16 partition for DOS (DD does format it, you can reformat it if you wish, however), and then boot from the DOS floppy and install it. Let DOS reformat if it must, otherwise just continue. Then boot from the DD rescue cd and install OSS to the DOS partition. Then create the primary/active partition for Win98. Then reboot to the OSS menu. In the settings for the DOS boot, hide the Win98 partition. Then select to add an OS and boot from the Win98 cd, selecting the newly created partition and making sure to hide the DOS partition. You'll probably have to reactivate OSS afterwards.

 

Thanks again for your continued support. I had not been reactivating OSS, so will be sure to in the future. I tried for a little while to continue on with the poor old dos6.22 operating system and use DD OSS to create a new win98 partition, but dos wasn't even seeing my cd rom drive yet, I didn't want to dig back in to my old autoexe.bat stuff to try get them working. I could boot to the rescue DD cd and installed OSS on the new dos6.22, but more problems....

So, I am trying it the same way again. I reformated the 80G drive with win98's FDISK and installed a clean win98. I just now installed DD\OSS (no other aps) and I am trying again put dos6.22 on the first 1.7G after moving win98 over a ltttle for it.

Still pondering what caused the last disaster....
After resizing win98, and creating a new 1.8G for dos, DD named it D: then when I made new logicals behind win98 DD showed them as E and F. DD kept showing the 1st 1.8 as D: but when i ran win98 it listed as F the last one.

So, I was thinking the problems might be with the definition of the extended partition. There can be only 1 extended partition on a disk, right? but DD doesnt show where the extented partion is, just a bunch of logicals, so how do I know if DD is handling all the logicals as 1 extended partition? Can I have logicals scattered around all over the place between 4 primaries and they will all still be 1 extended partition? The very first hd sector 001 keeps track of where the 4 primaries are and the FIRST extended, then info on the location of other logicals is chained together somehow. So if DD is still calling my first 1.8 partition D: (even tho it shows it as a new primary partition), is it still still chained together as one (the first in this case) of the logicals in the extended partition.

The other thing... before I tried to install dos on the 1.8G DD was still calling it D: even tho it was hidden, I had thought about renaming it to C: before rebooting it active to install dos, but figured that was a possible threat to the working C: win98 too.

 

If you "moved" the Win98 C: drive partition over to make room for the DOS partition in front of it, then the second partition ( Win98 ) will still be the first partition in the partition list. The DOS partition located at the beginning of the drive will be the second in the list. The partition list does not necessarily show the same order as the locations on the hard drive, just the order in which they were created.

Also note that when booted from the DD cd, the drives may not be listed (or lettered) in the same order as in Windows. This is because of how the linux drivers detect drives. Make sure to label your partitions so you can more easily tell them apart --- WIN98, DOS622, DATA, etc.

The C: D: problem is because they can see each other. For the Win98 setup, the DOS partition needs to be hidden. For the DOS setup the Win98 partition needs to be hidden. You want your C: drive in Windows to be the "C:" drive and not the "D:" drive. You also want the C: drive in DOS to be the "C:" drive.

Make sure they are hidden from each other. You can manually set the Win98 partition as hidden when booted from the DD cd. Also set the DOS partition as unhidden and active. Then immediately boot from the DOS install floppy. If you go through OSS then it may change the hidden/active settings if they're not correct.

As for logical partitions becomming scattered, unfortunately, that can happen with DD. They are supposed to all be in the "extended partition container", but DD can create them "outside the standard." If the logicals are grouped together, then they are probably okay.

Just as another note, in case I hadn't mentioned it already. If you install OSS from the cd and multiple OS's are installed on the hard drive, make sure NONE of the OS partitions are hidden (boot DD from the cd first and check this). OSS may not correctly detect OS's in hidden partitions.

If you need a standard Win98 (or other) boot floppy, check out www.bootdisk.com --- They have quite a few available, including ones with CD-ROM support.

 

thanks a million MudCrab, I would have no chance without your patience and understanding....

I understand all of your last email up to here:
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Also set the DOS partition as unhidden and active. Then immediately boot from the DOS install floppy. If you go through OSS then it may change the hidden/active settings if they're not correct.
======

Before the last disaster, I made a new 1.8G prtt at the begining of the drive using DD from desktop. Then I ran OSS from the working win98 desktop,
here is when I hid win98 made 1.8G active,
then selected Operating System = "Boot from floppy"
then >Reboot from OSS
Got the A: prompt and installed dos

But it went outside the 1.8G made a 1.991G and destroyed the begining of the adjacent prtt making win98 inoperable including the OSS files.

Here's the rub...
How do I "immediately boot from the DOS install floppy. If you go through OSS...it may change.." How can I immediately boot without using OSS? That is where I launch a reboot to install to the active 1.8G. What you are saying makes sense because obviously win98 prtt did not stay hidden and dos format went outside the prtt it was supposed to stay on.

Keep in mind my other dilemma, I can not do OSS things from the rescue cd-- Media Builder gives me errors. The 10.2077 cd from Amazon recovery function boots with an option to go to DD but not OSS. So all OSS actions must be done from the win98 desktop icon. I think this is probably the problem, I need to get to the new active partition (and keep win98 hidden, but I am on the win98 prtt when I tell OSS to hide the running win98 and reboot).

I have not got 2 operating systems on yet, but this brings up another initialization block of our infamous OSS\DD tag team...
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Just as another note, in case I hadn't mentioned it already. If you install OSS from the cd and multiple OS's are installed on the hard drive, make sure NONE of the OS partitions are hidden (boot DD from the cd first and check this). OSS may not correctly detect OS's in hidden partitions.
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When you mark partitions hidden with DD they do not stay hidden, the only way I could do it was with OSS. So, how can one install OSS with none hidden when I have to use the installed OSS to hide and unhide?

Elvin at corporate sales returned my phone call and the first thing he warned me is to always use DD from the recovery CD (the desktop icon is for veiwing info only). I guess the same is true about OSS, but running OSS from my recovery CD is not an option. Maybe I better solve that problem first.

Alexander Golant at Acronis tech support answered my email about trying to dual boot Vista\win98 with these instructions;

We recommend you to proceed in the following to way to install Windows 98:
- Start Acronis OS Selector;
- Create a new primary FAT32 partition with Acronis Disk Director and set it Active;
- Turn off the computer;
- Boot the computer from Windows 98 installation CD and install Windows 98 on the new partition;
- After the installation has been completed, reboot the computer and start Acronis OS Selector with Windows 98 being added to the boot menu automatically.

This is about as helpful as the User Guide, but if I try to understand his points (after all he was good enough to read my email entitled "about 8 problem" and send me a response that was not obviously an auto canned reply, like most Help Centers use)

Is he saying always keep OSS running in a seperate window while making changes with DD?

What does "turn off the computer" mean? Close DD and OSS windows (in which order?) and do a proper >shutdown. It could very well also mean, leave all windows open and hit the power off button.

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- Boot the computer from Windows 98 installation CD and install Windows 98 on the new partition;
=====
That would be nice...
How do I get to the new partition?
How do I set-up the other partitions to accept the new op sys?
How do I get OSS to then recognize both the new and the old opSys?

tbc....

 

You're welcome. I only hope it gets figured out to your satisfaction.

What I meant was to not let OSS take over. If your BIOS is set to boot the floppy first, you would just put the floppy in and restart the computer. A better way would be to deactivate OSS first. Also, note that using DD for this needs to be done from the rescue cd and not from Windows because you would be hiding the "running" Windows partition.

Are you sure Win98 wouldn't boot because of the partition size or was it because of inserting a partition in front of it? This is why (for the sake of simplicity) I recommened installing DOS first and then Win98. That way Win98 gets installed on the partition it is going to stay on. Maybe you could try a slightly smaller partition, 1.7GB.

If OSS is deactivated and you have booted from the DD cd and set the Win98 partition as hidden and the DOS partition as active and applied the changes, then exit DD. The computer will reboot or directly return to the Acronis DD menu (to select full or safe mode). Once there, put the DOS floppy in the drive and just reboot (I'm assuming you have the floppy higher in the boot priority list in BIOS than the CD-ROM, otherwise remove the cd first).

What this does is take OSS out of the equation. By using DD to manually set what partitions you want hidden and what ones you what visible and active, you know what they will be when the computer boots up the next time. You can verify this if you want by booting back into DD from the cd and checking.

Here you are starting to DOS install from OSS within Windows. If you must initiate from OSS, then you should do it when OSS boots up. If OSS is installed and activated, you'll get the OSS OS menu when you boot the computer. You can perform all the needed functions here without booting into Windows. If you have OSS "zoomed" to the whole screen, use the "unzoom" button to show the menus and toolbar. Maybe it will work better for you from there.

To do this: uninstall OSS. Boot from the rescue cd and start DD. Set all the OS partitions to unhidden. Apply changes. Exit and reboot to the cd. Then install OSS from the cd.

He's saying to just start OSS by booting the computer (OSS is already installed and activated, etc.). The OSS menu screen will come up. Make sure the menubar is shown and select the Tools menu and then Disk Director. You're basically starting Disk Director from inside OSS before running any OS. Since no OS is running, after you have applied the changes in DD, you can just power off the computer. In this particular senario, though, you may want to insert the Win98 boot cd before you power off. That way it's in the tray and ready to go when you turn the computer back on. A simple reboot should also do fine if you don't want to a complete power down.

---------
Why can't you create an updated rescue cd? (You may have posted this previously, but I've forgotten if you have, sorry.)
Does the Media Builder program not work on Win98?
It may make things nicer to have a cd that includes OSS.

 

Yes, it finally sank in how to do this and when I was relying to much on OSS. Basicly, OSS is used to recognize an OS once properly using DD and some old fashion methods.

I figured out the problem about bootable recovery media too. If you run DD and select >build media from the menu it wont work. But if you go to >start >programs >Acronis >DD >Build Media it works (ie DD is not running). At least this works on win98.