Trying to update bios

Discussion in 'other software & services' started by ellison64, Jun 3, 2012.

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  1. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Your not making sense.The lead from a desktop pc can be pulled out during a bios update, the same as a laptop lead,so why should a laptop bios update need a battery "backup" any more than a dektop pc ? which doesnt have a battery?
     
  2. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    Why would a BIOS update force you to have a battery in a desktop when that doesn't exist? It's backwards logic.

    Furthermore, laptops are connected by plugs that can easily be pulled out especially given the nature of a laptop ie: it's designed to move around. Desktops in one place and the cords are pretty stuck in/ large.
     
  3. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Ive always updated the bios to the latest on every laptop /pc i own..sometimes for no specific reason than it being the latest.This is the first laptop that wont let me just using AC power.I cant update and thats that i guess,but heres a pic of my bios (one at the arrow)and the later ones(theres two more at top not shown)
     

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  4. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Its not logical (imo) to suggest that a laptop needs a battery as a backup in case of AC failure ,when performing a bios update and a desktop doesnt.If the reason was all about security of the bios update in case of a possible AC failure then it would be logical to stick a battery as a backup in a desktop too.Many laptop batteries are lucky if they last 13 or 14 months ,and it seems to me there might be a bit of commercial advantage going on in this case rather than security of the bios update.
     
  5. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    Desktops don't need batteries. They aren't moved, they aren't ever unplugged while on. Laptops do.

    If desktops did have batteries for whatever reason and people did, for whatever reason, unplug the batteries then I'm sure BIOS updates would require it be in then as well. Desktops don't, users don't, so the BIOS update doesn't.

    There's much more to it than power failure. Laptop cords come out very easily and laptops are designed to move around. So, a user moves their laptop, the cord pops out, and there we are - broken computer with no power outage.
     
  6. Cudni

    Cudni Global Moderator

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    For whatever reason that update file is designed as it is. Not much can be done about it short of persuading whoever designed it not to check for battery if there is another power supply.
     
  7. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    I think we are are on two different wavelengths here o_O ,so we,ll have to agree to disagree :thumb:
     
  8. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    You are 100% correct .I hope perhaps this thread might help those with laptops to update their bios (if they feel the need to of course) before their battery flatlines..like mine did.
     
  9. zfactor

    zfactor Registered Member

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    maybe i missed it but can you either link me to the bios or send me a pm. ill see if i can modify it so it can be flashed in dos i work with a lot of bios' and sometimes add/remove features or change the boot screens or add info etc...insyde is a bit trickier but not at all impossible. i have a dos flasher for insyde as well as the insyde modding tools i just need the bios file.

    personally i 100% disagree with those saying not to flash. im also a tech and i feel the bios should ALWAYS be the latest or latest stable release with boards made for overclocking those are a different case and sometimes older releases are more stable. you also should not need a battery to flash... this can usually be avoided by flashing in dos with a bootable usb drive or disc..send me the bios and let me see if i can make it flashable for you..
     
  10. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Hi zfactor..
    the link is here..
    http://www.packardbell.co.uk/pb/en/GB/content/download
    1.select product family = notebook
    2.select product line = easynote
    3.select product model =EN TM86
    4.confirm selection = windows 7
    Operating system = windows 7 home premium x64 bit

    All the updates pop then including the bios updates.Actually there it can be flashed in dos as in the main .zip theres a winflash one (the one i normally use) and a dos one ,which can be put on a bootable usb or cd.I havent bothered because i suspect i would run into the same problem with the battery.I guess ill take Bills advice and not bother,as during my googling about it it seems practically every main bios site doesnt recommened bios updates if everything seems fine anyway (although ive always updated in past without any problems on numerous occasions).Ironically i found the service manual for the easynote and it says when flashing the bios make sure
    ........................................

    NOTE: Please use the AC adaptor power supply when you run the Flash utility. If the battery pack does not
    contain enough power to finish BIOS Flash, you may not boot the system because the BIOS is not
    completely loaded.
    ........................................
    It also mentions making a crisis recovery disk which i imagine is one that would have to be purchased from PB and is a backup of the original bios? (rather than a windows recovery disk).Ive never used one of them before so in future ill make sure i get one (or make one if thats possible) before any update.
     
  11. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Well, I don't expect anyone to follow my advice simply because I say so - but I do make every attempt to not lead anyone astray. I don't want to make someone else's problems worse, but to a bigger (more selfish) extent, I simply hate to be wrong. So I research and verify to ensure I am not.

    So to elaborate a bit further, many incorrectly confuse the BIOS with motherboard drivers. They are NOT the same thing - in any respect.

    The BIOS is more like a mini, totally independent, operating system used to establish "basic" communications between the major components on the motherboard - and have NOTHING to do with the OS, whether Windows or Linux. A driver is OS specific - used to enable/install the "enhanced" features (beyond the basic defaults) of hardware devices.

    Except for brand new motherboards, there typically are very few BIOS updates. And those that do come out typically just add support for new CPUs and RAM that came out after the previous BIOS release.

    Then you have never had one fail on you, turning the motherboard into a brick. Not fun. In the very old days, if you wanted to update the BIOS, you had to physically replace the BIOS chip! Later it got sophisticated and you had to remove a special little flap over the EPROM then erase the EPROM using a special black/UV light, then "burn" in the new firmware with a special burner.

    Today, most motherboard makers include reliable Windows based BIOS update utilities so the process is certainly easier. You don't even have to create a bootable CD or floppy. But it is no less dangerous. ANY tiny disruption (power anomaly, user error, disk/file read error, etc) can corrupt the update process. And while some motherboard makers allow you to backup your BIOS for recovery, things can still go very wrong.

    Two events in my career set my beliefs in this manner. The first was when one of my "troops" tripped over the power cord while I was defragging my commander's hard drives. Not good. The other was a power outage caused by a car hitting the building while we were "flashing" the General's BIOS. Even worse! Both events made bricks - the first a drive brick, then a motherboard brick.

    The good news is I got the funding for UPS I had been yelling about for two years (though not sure that would have helped with the tripping event! ;)

    BTW, I really have the same philosophy for drivers. Drivers don't just go bad over time. So I don't update my drivers just because a new driver is out there. I read the Release Notes and see what the update is about. If it affects security, or a problem I am having, then I will update. If it adds some feature or support I don't need, then I don't.

    There are two exceptions - on new builds, I make sure I have the current everything installed. And graphics drivers, which tend to be released to improve performance.

    I don't believe you would have to purchase this. I recommend you check your manual again. It may have instructions to create the disk, or check the bloated fluff.... :ouch: :blink: err, I mean all the nice extra features PB foisted.... o_O :gack: err, I mean nicely installed on your hard drive. There may be a utility there to create this disk.
     
  12. zfactor

    zfactor Registered Member

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    im looking at it now.

    edit how did you try to flash from windows or dos? the bios includes a dos based flashit tool which should flash fine...you can easily make your own crisis disk BUT it requires a external FLOPPY drive not usb or disc.

    juts reviewed the bios it should be okay to flash from a PURE DOS mode which just means a true dos enviornment not a windows based dos or windows 3.1 etc. if you have any old small usb stick laying around i can help you make a usb stick that you can boot to to flash the bios, then copy the files in the "dos" folder once your download from pb is extracted to the root of the usb stick reboot to the usb stick and simply type flashit and hit enter. its really very easy

    this newest update from may is for the windows slic cert installed into windows for your oem windows 7 activation. from what im told they had some issues with win7 de-activating due to the oem slic certificate matching the info in the bios.

    you are welcome to pm me or respond here and ill help you get this done. just let me know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
  13. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    @zfactor
    I tried the Winflash_NEW70123.exe which is the windows flash.I can make the bootable dos one on a usb stick or cd.I didnt realize the crisis disk required a floppy...seems very archaic.There are quite a few bios updates after mine,I just downloaded the packard bell updater utility ,which says no updates available.Whether it checks for bios updates as well im not sure ,as it says theres no driver updates either.I think ill leave it as i havent had any problems ,im just an update nut and like the machine to be as up todate as possible.In this case though ,I think ill leave it a while ,but thank you for taking the time checking it out for me ,and if i do need help in future ill certainly take you up on your offer of help ;)
    @Bill_Bright
    I try to follow the advice of anyone that knows more on a subject than i do ,not just because they say so :p
    I have googled quite a few of these bios flash sites and 99% advise not to flash bios unless theres a problem as its not worth the risk,so im gonna leave it ...for now :)
     
  14. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    As noted in the your TM 86 service manual, you can use a USB device for your Crisis Disk (see page 164).

    Also see pages 32-35 to learn about the DOS and Windows based flash utilities.
     
  15. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Hi Bill page 32-35 is as far as i got ,so thanks for pointing out page 164 :thumb: .The only thing is though i still dont know how to make the crisis disk.It doesnt seem to say how to make one on any of those pages ,it only mentions that i should have one ,and i cant find anything in bios or in the PB stuff thats on this laptop on how to make one.On googling bios crisis disk ,i see many specific to the make of the bios.Ill have to search PB site a bit more.Even if i dont flash the bios ,id like to know how to create one of these for future reference.
     
  16. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Hmmm, it is not very informative, is it? But that said I am not sure you need such a disk if updating via the WinFlash app.

    But once again, why do you want to update the BIOS?
     
  17. zfactor

    zfactor Registered Member

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    crisis does not work often properly from a usb stick. i deal with and write / edit bios' very often... trust me if you want to run crisis it should be run from a floppy... or you may not be a happy person..
     
  18. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Isnt it strange how things happen.Since starting this thread (well about 5 days ago) ,and not being able to update my bios and basically forgetting about it,i noticed my system clock and date was way out.I checked bios settings and reset...booted up and time and date was different again.This time i also noticed my system tray icons were intermiitently loading (other task bar and desktop icons loaded normally)From googling it seemed my cmos battery was on the blink.After ripping the laptop apart , i was then presented with the cmos battery that was soldered to the board ,that was obviously not done with human hands .The battery was showing 1.2 volts instead of 3 so i guess that it was gone.In hindisight i then did something stupid.I unsoldered the battery.The one leg of the batteryhad a brown residue on it which when looking throgh a magnifying glass was actually a part of the motherboard track.Ohh how i yearned for the boards of old with solder tracks like highways.This board had tracks that were almost invisible to the naked eye and to rub salt in the wound was glossed over with what looked like enamel?.I bought a 3 volt watch battery ,and soldered fine wire to it ,used flux and tried to solder it to the minute bit of track that was showing.It seemed to stick.I put the laptop back together (only 3 screws left over) and with anticipation switched on.It didnt go bang but actually rebooted to my desktop.But glee turned to despair when i noticed the time and dates were still wrong and no amount of adjustment would make them stick.Ive now put nettime on which auto syncs the laptop nad stops and date time problems ,but im still getting intermiitent system tray icons not loaded.The workaround for this is to shut down explorer and restart it.Anyone have any advice on how to get the system tray icons to load with a dodgy bios/cmos? or can explain why it only affects the tray icons but not any others?
     
  19. zfactor

    zfactor Registered Member

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    couldnow be a corrupt bios that would need to be reflashed. or the battery is not soldered well enoughwhat i would try is to solder 2 small wires directly to the battery using low heat and flux (i recc silver solder) wrap it in some black electric tape and then look to see where the traces from the battery went to on the board and follow those to the next available point and then re solder the wires to a goo contact point. you may have to bridge the part that came of the board as well depending on if it needed to make contact across where the piece lifted or not. its really a pretty easy fix overall but does take a bit of soldering experience. if you needtoexpose the traces radio shack sells a fiberglass pencil for this very purpose.
     
  20. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Thanks for the fibreglass pen tip :thumb: ,although i fear this will be for future use.I cant update the bios as i still have the original problem of the large laptop battery being knackerd.When i put the new cmos battery in i did solder small wire to the battery and to the best of my ability what was left of the track.It did seem to stick,but as i mentioned the result is the same.Ive decided not to try replacing it again as the soldered wire from the battery is very close to what seems to be a tiny chip (cmos chip?)and knowing my luck id probably end up melting it ,and make matters worse.Currently im using the netime 3.14 program which works beautifully ,and solves the problem of date and time (which my av complains about if its wrong) and i found a .bat file on the internet that stops explorer and restarts it after 4 secs which then loads all my system tray icons correctly.So basically i now start my laptop, until my desktop has loaded,then click a shortcut on my taskbar which starts the bat file and reloads my tray icons.Its working fine so im inclined to leave it.I wish i had posted here first before attempting the battery change as that firbeglass stick probably would have helped.I live and learn :rolleyes:
     
  21. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Actually, that is a type of epoxy resin. It is there to protect the board from moisture and air, which can promote corrosion.
     
  22. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Thanks for the info.... I have a feeling(after seeing how minute the track was in this PCB) that these soldered laptop batteries are meant to last the lifetime of the unit and is not supposed to be removed....or at least by the user :doubt: .Im not chancing taking it apart again,as at least its working ,although i now have 1 extra click to perform starting the explorer bat file.Im not sure exactly what will happen in future though.The bios seems to retain all the settings i put in except the date and time which strikes me as strange ,as i would have thought that if the cmos battery isnt working then no settings would be retained?
     
  23. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Yeah, sadly, there is no ATX Form Factor standard for notebooks. With a PC, you know you can pop open the side to gain access. Why? Because all ATX compliant cases (which is about 99.99% of PC cases - including ATX, mid-ATX, and µATX) must open from the side for easy user access.

    There are basically a couple things the battery does (and CMOS too). It "holds" CMOS settings. And that takes very little battery power. But it also runs things (clocks), and updates things in the BIOS (date and time). And that take a little more battery power. If the battery was DEAD dead, then a BIOS reset would occur every time you powered down. But if the battery still had some life too, or just could not take, or hold on to a full charge, then it may retain some of the "settings" but still lose date and time. I suspect if you left the computer off and disconnected from the wall for a week or so, all settings would be lost.

    That's pretty much a guess on my part for what is happening since the notebook and battery are with you and not on my bench. But it's based on what I have seen before. So a viable possibility, if nothing else.
     
  24. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Thanks for the info ,very interesting.Since ive taken the old battery out and soldered to the best of my abilty the new 3 volt battery (which seemed to have soldered okish to the little bit of track left)and the date and time still doesnt work ,would that mean that it may be cmos chip thats the problem and not the battery?.Im wondering why (if the battery hasnt soldered properly)why i dont get any error popups when booting up etc ,and everything works except as i said the date/time and sys tray icons loading (although explorer restart fixes that).
     
  25. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    I don't have an explanation for your problems now. Did you observe proper ESD precautions? What wattage is your iron? Something else on the board could have been damaged during the process. You could try reflashing your BIOS.

    You might also consider backing up any data now, you don't want lose too.
     
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