Too much reformatting

Discussion in 'hardware' started by ohblu, Aug 12, 2009.

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  1. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    Of course I'm just stating my own preference based on experience. For me a reformat is the way to go. It solves the problem. As far as learning, you can't help but learn from any experience on a PC. However, most "normal" users as you put it, are not out to learn, they just want it to work. A reformat makes it work. I guess that about sums up my point of view... ;)
     
  2. HKEY1952

    HKEY1952 Registered Member

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    Formatting the hard drive should always be the last resort. Sometimes formatting the hard drive can cause more problems and expense for the client.
    For example, the client may not have the original Operating System Disk and/or Manufacturer Driver Install Disk. Preserving the clients data should always have top priority.
    Replacing Operating Systems, Drivers, and Patches are most of the time available, replacing data is not. An professional troubleshooter will always diagnose the problem first.
    Should the diagnostics reveal that formatting the hard drive is in order, then all attempts to archive the clients most important data should be exercised first before formatting.


    HKEY1952
     
  3. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    :thumb: I completely agree. All too often service personnell go for the easy solution. If a computer cannot be cleaned easily, they charge a high fee, and do little to nothing to save the data.
     
  4. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    And what is it you learn by formatting? How to format? How does that prevent you from making the same mistake that got you in this mess in the first place? Does formatting teach you how to troubleshoot? How to eliminate possibilities and isolate the cause? Does knowing how to format teach you how to fix the problem? Any problem? No. It just makes one an expert at formatting. :doubt:

    And the sad part is, you can look through these forums and find, time and time again where users formatted and still have the same problem. Often because they went right back and downloaded the same infected file again. Or a rootkit survived the format (as many do), or it was a hardware issue all along.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  5. HKEY1952

    HKEY1952 Registered Member

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    Professionals follow procedures, and care more about the client than of themselves. Professionals never know enough, and are eager to learn more, that's what makes professionals, professional.
    Fortune seekers care about themselves, and have no regards for the client. Fortune seekers are not eager to learn more, and believe they know it all, that's what separates professionals from amateurs.


    HKEY1952
     
  6. DVD+R

    DVD+R Registered Member

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    Short Anwser : No.
     
  7. Keyboard_Commando

    Keyboard_Commando Registered Member

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    Ah grasshopper. Hear and you forget; see and you remember; do and you understand.
     
  8. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    It's not about learning Bill, it's about what's the most efficient course of action. If you're observant at all, you'll see what you did wrong and the results as it happens. I see no value in spending hours trying to track down some obscure problem, which may not (and often doesn't) even have a solution. If you're observant and see the cause and effect of things, you'll avoid the same problem on the next attempt. Again, your assumptions are half wrong. You're assuming that all problems can be fixed, and believe me, many can't. It's a matter of avoiding the cause next time around.

    I know some friends who repeatedly used to get themselves infested with malware, and spend literally days trying to clean it up and unravel the problems and consequences. A reformat fixes it all in a couple hours. Which route would you go? The solution is not to spend days farting around with the machine. The solution is to avoid the incorrect problem-causing behavior to begin with.

    Truth is, it depends much on the type of "problem" we're talking about. Sure, some things can be tracked down and fixed. That's fine. But just as many more cannot. After years of experience, I think you'll agree that Windows can get itself into some pretty obscure and screwed up messes. At this point, I prefer a quick and easy solution, rather than spending hours or more wrestling with things. Some issues I will fix, sure. But often times the best solution IS a reformat.
     
  9. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Of course it is.

    No it's not. It's about doing the right thing for the client.

    That's a ridiculous statement. Don't BS us!!!! You don't get a report after the format telling you what it discovered, and what was done to correct the original problem. What you get is a blank disk. No OS. No security programs. No data. No user profiles. No hardware drivers. No email. No network connection. Now if that is all the client wants, then fine. And that is certainly how many big business clients want it. But most home and small office users consider their machines something other than toys, and want more than an blank disk or default Windows installation with no user accounts, no data, no applications, and no network access.

    No I'm not. I already told you once I don't assume anything. If I assumed that all problems could be fixed, I would not have said that formatting is a last resort, I would have said formatting is never needed.

    Thank you. That's what I have been saying. And since a format reveals NOTHING of the cause, once again, you learn NOTHING from a format. That is not to say not formatting will always yield the cause, but it certainly can.

    That's another silly statement. The OBVIOUS route is to teach your friends how to keep their systems patched, updated, scanned and blocked, AND teach them to avoid the risky practices they OBVIOUSLY continue to do. And that includes avoiding illegal porn and gambling sites, and most importantly, P2P sites that facilitate illegal file sharing of copyrighted materials such as songs, videos and published documents.

    If your friends are continually getting infested, and you are the go-to IT guy, then IMO, you have failed to properly educate them!
    Often? No way. Sometimes? Yes, but rarely.

    Formatting should be the exception, not the norm.
     
  10. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    I think we're beating it to death at this point. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)
     
  11. HKEY1952

    HKEY1952 Registered Member

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    True professionals that are experts in their field, will never argue their point excessively, true professionals know they are right.
    True professionals will never try to convince counter beliefs, true professionals deliver the information and leave it at that.
    When troubleshooting any computer, top priority is always preserving the original data. If the original data can be preserved in the unfortunate circumstance the
    technician is unable to solve the situation, or gain knowledge, or gain more knowledge of the situation, then the technician must set aside their own personal gain and concentrate
    on preserving the original data and placing the clients best interests at heart above and beyond ones self interest or gain.


    HKEY1952
     
  12. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    I disagree completely! Especially here! The very concept of "forums" is to foster healthy debate! Not to dart in, make some claims, and dart out.
    And I vehemently disagree with that! :( If there is one thing I have learned working hardware support for so long it is that IT technologies are advancing faster than any one person can keep track of - there is always more to learn. If you have ever worked in a large IT department (say 400+ employees with nearly all having expertise in one or more areas of IT), you know there is often (not always, but often) several ways to skin a cat, too. So a true professional would have confidence to know when they are right, but not so arrogant to assume they are right and therefore everyone else must be wrong.

    Forums helpers come from a wide variety of IT backgrounds too. That's the icing on the cake for helping out at these forums - there are all kinds of expert brains to pick.

    @YeOldeStonecat - do NOT think I am being critical of you. As an IT consultant, I congratulate you on scoring the retainer deals. I repeat what I said earlier - if the machine needs to get back into production now, and a format (or new drive) and re-image keeps the boss happy, then that's great. No argument from me. You said earlier you feel formatting is not the easiest and malware removal tools do a "fantastic job" - on both points I agree completely.

    And Kerodo, if you are meeting your client's requirements, then that's great too.

    But formatting would not do for the vast majority of home users, most of whom do not have an adequate (or current) backup plan in place. I would also wager if you polled those you know with a backup plan if they have tested the recovery process? I suspect they would give you the Bambi in the headlights look. People really should swap in a blank boot disk to see if they know how to recover from a failed drive.

    My problem with your position, and reason for pressing my position, even if to the point of being excessive, is three fold:
    1. All the lost data, missing updates, patches, applications, and user customizations

    2. The missed opportunity to learn - perhaps not so you can learn something new, but so you can show the client (or your friends who keep getting infected), where they messed up, and what you did to fix it. I agree with YeOldStonecat when he said,
      It is surprising how many problems are cleared just running Window Disk Cleanup (which has the nice option to purge all but the most recent System Restore point) or CCleaner. And chkdsk /r can do wonders too, all the while preserving the user's files and setup. Perhaps it is not so good for my business, but I tell my clients what I found wrong, and what I did to fix it. If the problem was malware, I make sure they have a solid defense, and know how to maintain it. And, since I typically find evidence of P2P filesharing whenever I find malware, we talk about the safety, security, and legality issues of filesharing too.

    3. Forums are a place of learning. I think as helpers on these forums, we should be teaching how to avoid the need for formatting and reinstalling Windows, by teaching folks how keep systems current and protected, clean of heat trapping dust, and other proactive, preventative measures.
    This being a place of learning, you say you learn from formatting - I have asked but you have yet to tell us. What do you learn from formatting that can help prevent the need to format again? o_O
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  13. HKEY1952

    HKEY1952 Registered Member

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    Well Mr. Bright.....perhaps you will learn this today from this Forum and Thread:

    When you Quote someone, use the entire sentence in the Quote, not truncated sentences of the Quote.
    Using truncated sentences of the Quote to twist the meaning toward your benefit is unprofessional, example:

    This would be an arrogant statement when truncated from the entire sentence as you have done:
    [QUOTE+HKEY1952]true professionals know they are right[/quote]

    This statement proclaims that the person knows what they are talking about, and will not argue excessively to convince otherwise:
    [QUOTE+HKEY1952]True professionals that are experts in their field, will never argue their point excessively, true professionals know they are right.[/QUOTE]

    For clarification, perhaps the statement should have read:
    [QUOTE+HKEY1952]True professionals that are experts in their field, will never argue their point excessively, true professionals know WHEN they are right.[/QUOTE]

    You may disagree all that you want, that is your right, however, when you Quote someone, Quote the entire sentence please.


    HKEY1952
     
  14. HKEY1952

    HKEY1952 Registered Member

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    This question is not directly addressed to me but I will answer the question.
    What I have learned from formatting to help prevent the need to format again is that I must not give up too easily.
    I must try to the best of my knowledge and ability to solve the problem and use formatting as an last resort.
    If I must format, I will not brow beat myself, one can not solve or correct all the problems of an computer or network without at some point failing.

    Bill, what have you learned from formatting to help you prevent the need to format again?


    HKEY1952
     
  15. dantz

    dantz Registered Member

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    You're describing the behavior of Windows XP. A Windows Vista format writes zeros to the entire area being formatted, overwriting all data.
     
  16. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    @HKEY - I don't see how my extraction changed the meaning of your original comments. I used only the excerpt to save space, not to change or twist the meaning (something that would upset me too). I am sorry if you felt otherwise.

    Here is your complete comment:
    I still disagree for the reasons I stated.

    @dantz - Good point. In the "default" setting, a "full" format in Vista (and Win7) does indeed write zeros. And for most people, that would be fine, but it does not meet government standards for a "wipe". The quick format option does not write zeros.

    Nothing. Except as you said, formatting is a last resort. That's why I avoid formatting unless there is no other choice. My point all along.
     
  17. JohnnyDollar

    JohnnyDollar Guest

    That is what I thought, but wasn't sure.

    What is the difference between a quick format and regular format in Vista?

    Edit:
    That answered my question.
     
  18. JohnnyDollar

    JohnnyDollar Guest

    Since the Vista long format writes 0's then wouldn't formatting it in Vista 2 or 3 times wipe it?

    I asked this earlier but in a different context, so I'm asking it again to make sure.
     
  19. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Again, not good enough for government standards but good enough more the majority of users. And certainly, as soon as you start to save all your programs and files, and start to use the disk, it will be over written again.
     
  20. Boost

    Boost Registered Member

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    At the end of the year,I always reformat,start fresh for the new year :thumb:
     
  21. Raza0007

    Raza0007 Registered Member

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    Same here; but I do it twice a year, as I mess with my computer a lot. Twice a year I wipe all sectors of my drive (zero fill) and restore from a base image which just has the OS on it.
     
  22. YeOldeStonecat

    YeOldeStonecat Registered Member

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    First, I wasn't comparing the two. Actually to be more accurate, what I stated was that "I prefer my time to be spent managing clients business networks". Which wasn't statement comparing cleaning Biz PC vs Home PC.

    It's not to say I get my share of home PCs to clean up. What it did say is I prefer to focus on biz networks.

    I also focus on SMB...Small==>Medium Business networks...not enterprise. So stuff like roaming profile and instant network imaging of workstations isn't usually the luxury for SMB. And quite a few are simply peer to peer networks...so they're rather like a home PC.
     
  23. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Understood. But I also note you said,
    Which suggests to me you try to avoid a format and reinstall, if at all possible, before resorting to those drastic measures.
     
  24. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    I really don't understand how people are going to 'learn' if they give their computer to an 'expert', or try to solve their problems by going to a website like www.bleepingcomputer.com .

    Suppose the 'expert' gives the client some logs of the infections that the security programs detected. What good would that do ?

    Aside from the fact that if the client had installed a rogue security program, nothing ! They are not going to study computer security, learning about LUA/SRP, SuRun, Linux.

    Or is the idea to frustrate the user/client so much that he will be more cautious the next time ? :doubt:
     
  25. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Wow! I sure don't see what your issue with BC is. That is considered among the better tech support sites, staffed by many volunteer experts, many who spend time here too. Sure, there will always be folks haphazardly offering questionable advice, but that's where the staff steps in. As far as I am concerned, Wilders is also a "website like www.bleepingcomputer.com." The staff and regular contributors are there, and here because they sincerely wish to help.

    The difference between taking a PC to a shop, and visiting a forum for advice is the forum guides you through the troubleshooting and repair process - or that's the idea anyway. So you learn by doing it yourself, with someone with more experience watching over your shoulder.

    Not sure what you mean here. The expert gives the OP some logs? I see it the other way around. The expert asks the OP run a scanner (HJT, for example) and to post their log. The expert analyzes the log for the OP/Client, then guides the OP to fixing any problems noted in the log. Do you see it working differently from that?

    As for taking it to a shop, let's not forget that most computer users care as much about fixing their own computers as they do about fixing their own cars, or refrigerators. Sadly, finding a reputable shop with qualified "technicians" can be a big chore in itself. Especially when there are some calling themselves technicians when their only real experience is "mounting" a few hardware components inside a computer case - tools required: one #2 Phillips screwdriver.
     
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