Norton AntiVirus is A Virus - VERY INTERESTING

vista and norton 2007 are excellent,

to all you bashers, go away

 

The thread doeth suckth? Why then are there 2 dozen posts?

Isn't there a real subject here trying and so far failing to come out?

Could that be the old never going away blogs on spying on our PC's by various agents, AV vendors, FW vendors, NSA, FBI , KGB and not to be forgotten Gordon Liddy.

If it all BS why do we load up on HIPS, FW's sniffers etc? Our actions don't match our disdain for these FUD blogs. Maybe this one is bogus, but some of you guys must see the mixed message we send with our own efforts to prevent spying! H..l I've wasted 4 weeks finding sites to block

This OP was zip to do with Norton per say.

 

Hmm...your perspective of the article and this thread is entirely different than mine, at least in terms of how we perceived the subject that each dealt with. I think you are extrapolating too much, as in reading too much into it, and misunderstanding the context of the discussion heretofore. The article deals specifically with Norton, that is it's subject. This thread deals specifically with that article, that is it's subject. Where do you draw from this that the 'real subject here' is about blogs that address 'spying on our PC'. None of the discussion thus far has had anything to do with your supposed real subject. Rather, its basically consisted of critical comments towards the article and the author and some discussion about Norton itself, so I fail to see what this has to do with blogs who cover cyber espionage. Rather than speculating what you meant by the following comment, I think it would be better to get clarification first to ensure I understand your point. So to further this discussion please reiterate your point (of your comment quoted below) in clearer terms, be a bit more specific, and elaborate somewhat on your reasoning.

 

No can do! Since I agree with you that our perspectives are different.

No amount of rationale explaining would alter those perspectives we would just end up arguing in circles.

I do think (still) that this thread (sucketh or not ) is about security software spying and that the Norton blog is just an example.

The thread may be better off in the privacy forum.

Where is the OP guy? We have HJ'd his thread? He should explain his real concerns!

 

I don't get why people assume that perspectives and opinions can not be altered by discourse, in general or in a particular instance, especially while the discourse is still on a superficial level. Before disregarding or dismissing a discussion out of hand, everyone involved in the discussion should ensure that they understand each other's perspective or opinion. Without having done that, any assertions that we must agree to disagree are nonsensical. Beyond that, everyone should explain their reasoning behind their perspective or opinion, as this is critical to understanding each other's position. Again, without having done this, any assertions that further discussion will be useless or futile are unfounded. As I said in my previous post, I don't really understand your position, so I pointed that out and sought clarification. If you don't want to continue with this discussion, so be it, but just say that instead of playing it off as a matter we must agree to disagree on, as that is simply a cop-out.

By the way, don't take any of this the wrong way, it is nothing personal, and is not meant to be an affront or attack in any way. Lastly, if you'd rather not discuss this here, can you PM me what you meant by your comment that I quoted at the bottom of my previous post. My curiosity compels me.

Regards,

TypicallyOffbeat

Edited per Escalader's request.

 

Hello again off beat! Agreed not personal.

But to show that please edit out "copping out and giving up". With words like that it is hard to carry forward.

I have yet to see many perspectives changed anywhere. I looked at the post trail with Mrk and yourself on Security takes no skill and see no changes in perspective.

BTW Here is the OP edited as of yesterday.

"Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?
Comments Please on the following?

"The most precompiled program in all new computers IS a virus to anyone who knows anything about computers." This is HIS QUOTE and VIEWPOINT. NOT MINE!!!!!

http://www.jimmyr.com/blog/Norton_An...us_97_2007.php
Last edited by Berge01 : Yesterday at 08:37 AM. "

My posts that you are so anxious to have me explain and provide a rationale for is based on my belief or a perspective that the real issue is not Norton or any particular AV but the broader issues dealing with software spys.

What could I possibly say that would convince you this perspective is valid?

BTW, would you please provide your full security set up? For example mine is in my signature, so it is transparent. I would like to see that before going further.

 

Edited per your request. Didn't mean those words to carry a negative or derogative connotation, my apologies if they did and you took it that way. And thanks for agreeing to keep this civil.

Don't be so cynical. Just because there are many instances where there was no change in perspective or opinion throughout the discussion doesn't mean that such change can't take place, and more importantly it doesn't mean such discussions where there is no change are worthless or useless. Granted, throughout the many discussions and arguments I've had, online and in person, most result in little or no change in perspective or opinion. However, the ones that do are of such value that they outwiegh any burden from the ones' that don't. Beyond that, discussions don't have to result in change of opinion to be of value, as the process of conveying your position for the purpose of the discussion leads to a better understanding of that position. Discourse forces people to develop and defend their position, which in turn results in either change or reaffirmation of one's position. Both results can be constructive.

My aim at this point is not to have you convince me of the validity of your perspective, but rather to have you explain the reasoning behind it so that I can better understand where your coming from and then proceed accordingly.

I don't see how that is relevant to this discussion.

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Hello Berge01:

Don't know about jimmyr but here is one for you and yours to chew on!

http://www.washingtontechnology.com/online/1_1/27081-1.html

I read the article and it is sort of scary !

In your view should we worry about deals like this between government and software firms of which Symatec is only an example?

PS I ran a siteadvisor on the site and except for 1 cookie warning all sites it was hooked to came up green for what ever that is worth.

 

No need to change my perspective on the display of security setups, as I understand the purpose and at times usefulness of doing so. However, that is not the subject of our discussion or the rest of this thread for that matter, and as I said before it isn't really relevant.

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

IMO ONLY, YES, we should worry about it. It is a violation of privacy for anyone who has a computer. Regardless if you have something to hide or not, it is the principle behind it. But, what can be done to stop it? NOTHING! Unless you run your computer without NO Security installed, then you have your ISP to deal with on the latest setup of Federal Rules that just went into effect within the last month that the Feds can open the back trap door to see what they can find. The same goes for cell phones, wiretapping, etc. Either go with the flow, or box up your computer, or just move to some other country that will not put up with these guidelines, etc.

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

All security apps have weaknesses. The talented attackers know what they are. Posting the contents of your security package in your signature only serves to tell an attacker where you're vulnerable.

Rick

 

Okay, having failed on that test so I'm done with for now! Have a good evening

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Hi Herb:

Not to worry, how can they find me to attack! Is there a spy in my software? Does the forum capture my ip's over time? How can they do it? I'm behind 2 HW FW's. Fully stealthed so I'm invisible! Unless of course I visit the dark side then it is my fault.

I have a different perspective as usual. Seeing a sign on the window "this house has burglar alarm systems" will drive the lazy bad guys over to somewhere else?

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Oh great. But I don't live in the US so all must be perfect here!

Maybe all these SW products are a bad plan! I could just hide behind the H/W FW's use FF maxed out on security and set up a massive block list if I only knew what to put in that list.

Also I could keep a clean HDD0 program image load it every day keep all my user data on encrypted dvd's and use non installing AV scanners from time to time!

Are we OT far enough yet!

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Unless you're using a proxy or Tor, every site you connect to knows your IP. I can't speak for this one, but on other forums, mods and administrators can see the IP you used for each post.

Do you know for certain that there is not? What about windows itself?
If you're concerned about being monitored by software give this one a read. Some of it's real. Some of it's not. You decide.
Rick

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Herb;

You are right, I do not know for certain there is not. What about windows itself?

I know that on the ZA Forum they can see the ip I use depending on whose post you are in there. On CFW forum they openly show the ip you are using on your post. The help pop up on that one says other posters cannot see it but moderators and admins can. Don't know on Wilder's but I'm assuming it is the same as CFW Forum.

I will read the link you provided. I may have to PM you on what is real and what is not. later on.

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

I read it and all I can say is most of makes me doubt this guy's knowledge level and his motivation, he is/was in UK and was involved with the "troubles" and is anti government due to his life experience.

Certainly some of it on programming efficiency and planned slow downs via registry design rings true as M$ must produce $. If windows was so great why are all these fixer upper programs in existence? I use a few as well!

Security issues with xp, we get monthly fixes from M$ so no news there.

The one direction FW rang true but that is not news either.

It is dated 2004 as well.

The other thing is where are his solutions other than a screwdriver and grinder to destroy the hard drive?

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

A lot more of that article is true or at least partly true than you might realize. Other items he mentions do describe Windows default behavior, but can be changed. Then again, a lot of people don't know it. The statements about the registry storing records of your activities are true. Ever looked at MRU blaster? Ever opened up an Index.dat file? If you're an Internet Explorer user, you're in for quite a shock the first time you open one, especially if they've been there for a while. Index Dat Suite will open them if you're interested.

When you have time, read up on alternate data streams and how some malware is using them. I'm at a loss to understand why something like that was even made possible.

There's several other small points that are true. I'll definitely agree that he went off the deep end in the 2nd half of that article, but the first half is truer than you might think. Not all of it, but a lot.
Rick

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Hi Rick:

Right, I may have been thrown by the second half and then threw the baby out with the bath water! But to answer your questions and ask you at the same time about the effectiveness of my current counter measures here we go (again)

1)"registry storing records of your activities are true" I use PC Tools Registry Mechanic, CCleaner and WindowWasher. Is that good enough to deal with the registry issue?

2) Ever looked at url=http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/mrublaster.html]MRU blaster?[/url], Yes, I used to have that, but with the 3 cleaners above I hoped that is enough?? What I will do is download mru blaster again, run the 3 cleaners and see if mru blaster finds anything to blast, I report back to you when that is done.

3)Ever opened up an Index.dat file? Not lately since, I'm a FF user and only use IE 6 when forced by vendors (M$, SS etc) Yes I'm very interested. I will look into these Index.dat files and report back what I find.

Rick do you use IE 7 when you have to and what do you do yourself to manage the issues of windows on your own set up? When you are free of course!

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

The blaster link showed:

Latest Update: 3/28/2004 - approx. 30,345 MRU items in detection database

So that is 3 years old on database!

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Yes, it is older, but not as old as XP or IE6. It does cover ones made by Windows itself and the common M$ software like IE6, which are responsible for a lot of the MRUs. Besides, it's free and doesn't need to be a resident process.

I posted that more to show just how much of that data gets hidden in the registry, not as a way to get rid of all of it. If it addressed over 30 thousand known MRUs back then, how many are stored there now? Not a pleasant thought, and one of several reasons I don't use XP.
Rick

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Rick: not, XP which os are you using? If you told me before I'm sorry, just another memory lapse.

 

Re: Norton AntiVirus is A Virus?

Hi again Rick:

Well you were right again!

For others following this thread, I did what I said I would do I ran my standard cleaners and even after they all ran to 100% done I got 161 MRU's detected by MRU blaster :

for the record I ran in order:

1 CCleaner
2 Easy Cleaner 2.0 toni arts
3 Window Washer
4 Register Mechanic
5 MRU Blaster

Conclusion: There is way to much information stored in Windows XP for way to long. I must tighten it up! Spending too much time on FW's when 161 MRU's were already well past my outer moats!