Need Sound Card

OK...I'll just get some new speakers. Thanks Bill.

 

You may want to upgrade your sound card in the future, but since speakers are electro-mechanical devices, they are your weakest link in reproducing audio with "fidelity" - especially with a digital source.

 

Maybe a little late, but agree with advice to stick to onboard.

The truth is that today's onboard audio is every bit as good as the dedicated cards and their "slick" marketing for general use. If you're doing music production, however, completely different story.

Money is always better spent buying a good set of speakers or headphones

 

I can agree with that in a general aspect, onboard is usually good enough. However, many onboard solutions suffer from feedback from the motherboard itself. I have found quite a few motherboards that do this, and there is not much to fix it. There used to be a VIA tweak about 5 years ago on some chipsets, but most just have it and can't be fixed.

I don't doubt that many external sound cards are minimally if any better than onboard, but I also know that with a quality set of speaker/headphones, you can think it is very good, when in fact a better audio card will reveal the truth.

Of course, you don't need to produce music to appreciate the better sound from better products, you only need to desire it.

Sul.

 

I have never encountered feedback from on-board sound so I would have to say that was not a common problem. And when searching for this problem, I can't find any trend where on-board suffers any more than add-on cards. If you have a link, I would be happy to review it.

That said, 5 years ago is ancient history and much has happened with on-board sound since then. Now if you buy a $30 motherboard, don't expect the best on-board sound. But you don't have to buy a $200 board either to get excellent sound.

 

Of course, there are always going to be products that are just not up to par. Onboard audio is no different. I've also used $1000 pro cards that sounded like crap.

I don't do pro audio any more, but I do listen and my onboard gets the job done for my ears. That's the other thing as well: Sound is in the ear of the beholder (to kinda mess poorly with another well known phrase). Everyone is going to have different ideas about what sounds good. In a lot of cases it may just be a placebo effect, but it's still there and matters.

 

Check out some forums, loads of people had the same issue. Normally the mic gets it more than the speakers though. I have built, maintained, fixed or repaired, I don't know, maybe 200, maybe 300 systems. I have found it on lets say, 2 dozen? I have no idea, but I have encountered it enough to have attempted to find a solution and learn of the probable reasons it does exist.

I think add-on cards would be less likely, but haven't had much need to find out. I don't have a link, but using this as a search term produced plenty of results on all sides of the coin.
"onboard sound feedback buzz"

Well put.

Sul.

 

Now wait! "Buzz" is not the same thing as "feedback". Feedback is just that - a signal being reintroduced (re-fed) into a circuit and that (when talking audio) is typically through a microphone/speaker "feedback loop". While buzz is distortion or interference originating from outside the audio circuit. "Feedback buzz" is not a real technical term. You have feedback, or you have buzz (interference) - if you have both, you have two problems. The symptoms of feedback are echos/reverberations, loud howls or squeals in the audio from the speakers/headphones and the symptom of buzz is... buzzing sounds (which may, or may not come through the speakers).

As seen by the link in my sig, I too have worked on hundreds of systems. I've also done "Public Address" audio support for major air shows and military ceremonies where feedback is a major concern. And I've been an electronics technician for almost 40 years. But I'm still learning so I did search the forums and other tech sources - that's why I asked for a link that showed a trend where on-board suffers any more than add-in cards. Sure, if you search for "onboard", you are going to get "onboard" hits. But if you search for computer feedback buzz you still get 10.6 million hits (56.9M if you search on computer audio feedback), and you will note problems abound for both add-in cards and on-board. And while most may very well be with on-board, I contend that is because almost every computer and motherboard sold in the last 5+ years came with on-board sound integrated into the motherboard. To illustrate, Newegg, has 342 Intel based motherboards listed and according to their advanced search feature, 78 have 6-channel sound, 241 have 8-channel sound, and 21 have 10-channel sound for a total of 340 out of 342 motherboards. 211 out of 212 AMD boards have on-board. So in other words, it would be very difficult to find a motherboard today that does not have integrated audio.

That makes sense and I agree - but again, that is not limited to on-board audio - nor to budget systems - nor does that automatically indicate a problem with the card or integrated device. Feedback and interference/buzz can affect professional systems too and in almost every case, if not due to the mic being too close to the speaker (in the case of feedback), is due to poor grounding or "shielding" and that is typically caused by a damaged wire, damaged or loose connection, or cold solder joints on a connection. I also note that many cases support mic and headphones via front panel jacks through interconnecting cables from the motherboard (or card). These cables typically use slip-on type, often unshielded connections which historically do NOT provide a good, solid mechanical connection, resulting in a poor electrical connection susceptible to poor isolation and inadequate shielding.

 

This all has been helpful, interesting, and fun

 

Sorry, I guess I was not limiting issues I have found to only one type of problem. I have found feedback in mics (infinite loop sort of thing) as well as feedback in output of audio (rather like the buzz you can get in car audio from plugs/HEI etc). Whether the technical term is buzz or feedback or whine or purr I don't know, just that problems can exist.

I agree, onboard dominates the average need. I am only pointing out that while there are very good onboard solutions today, I have found more issues with them than with add-on cards. Which only serves to point out that "your onboard is probably good enough" might not always be accurate, situation depending.

Sul.

 

Again, that is not feedback. That is interference. And that can come from many sources, including internal, but also sources external to the sound device, such as cables, connections, or RFI - a common problem with high-speed digital devices.

Well, I never said that, but I think that is what "probably" implies. But regardless, there are $10 add-in cards out there that "probably" are not always accurate, situation depending, too. There are $50 to $100 (and more) cards that "probably" are not always accurate. Integrated audio does not imply inferior quality. In fact, superior quality audio can be integrated on a motherboard much less expensively, and more reliably (because of fewer parts and connections) than using a add-in card. As you move away from entry level motherboards, you also move away from entry level audio but we must remember, until the audio is converted from digital to analog, which is not done until the actual amplification stages, the primary function of a sound card is simply to move data - not a difficult task. And if converting from digital to analog, that is typically a one chip step too, and not a difficult task.

Yes, the best audio may be via a card - in part due to real-estate and faster sampling converters. But in most cases, all a card gets you is more features such as additional inputs, mixing, sound "shaping" and "special effects" (which are counter to "fidelity", BTW), features most users will never use. High-end cards may be the exceptions, but...

Audiophile electronics and audio reproduction was my first love. People need to realize that while $250, or even $500 may seem like a lot of money for a set of powered computer speakers, that's chump change when it comes to accurately reproducing recorded audio. Quality speakers cost $1000s (each!!) and then you need a quality amplifier to drive them, and that can cost $1000s more. Then, of course, you need quality BluRay player - I don't think a $60 drive in a PC really qualifies as a high-end "quality" reproduction device.

Now if you are recording audio, that's different. But most folks are not into that. So I say again, if your budget is $100 for a set of computer speakers, unless you have a $30 motherboard with entry level integrated audio, your on-board sound device will suit you just fine.

 

AHH....It's nice to be able to save a few bucks !

 

Absolutely! You can always put it to more RAM or a better graphics card - something that improves performance - something even the best sound card cannot do!

 

So Rainwalker - what's the verdict ? Drop the hammer yet

FYI - i purchased the Altec Lansing speakers i showed you on the first page of your thread yesterday and am pleased with them. Listed at the Future Shop for 100 bucks, i found them at a local computer store for $72.00 and after taxes, saved $31.00

Like you, i was looking in the price range of up to $120.00 and here is why i settled on these.

- couldn't beat what i got for the price
- on the right satellite speaker, all the choices are available - power, volume, treble, headphone input and most importantly, the ability to control the bass level of the subwoofer.
- satellites sound great and crisp
- the altec subwoofer was the only one that sounded like a "true" subwoofer - deep, floor shaking bass.

All the other subwoofers in this price range sounded like a hybrid - cross between a satelitte and a subwoofer.

I only have onboard sound but they still sound nice!

 

Umm welll errr....I was afraid someone would ask that. Since you took the time to write all you wrote I will reluctantly respond. I was in Wallmart the other day and saw some basic Philips 38 watt 2.1 on sale for $50 so I grabbed them. I don't need all that much. They are better for sure then me old 2.1 setup, but they only have a single volume control and the sub does sound like a "hybrid". I don't know....I may or may not keep them.

 

Must be some of that funny type of tobacco when 72 + 31 + taxes = 100.

 

Good one

 

Okay Okay - i'll have to do the math for you i guess

Future Shop Price - $99.99 + 12% H.S.T. = $111.98

Local computer shop purchase price - $72.00 + 12% H.S.T. = $80.64

Savings = $31.34

 

Okay. You win.

 

Walmart also sells the Logitech. Base has, at least the one I bought, a seperate volume control.
The model I bought was Z 340. A great sounding general purpose 2.1 computer speaker system at almost half the price of the competition.

Currently Walmart has in Logitech, LS21 $27; Z313 $45; Z323 $62
Walmart Speaker search
But you must listen side by side and decide for yourself.

 

Figured he would

 

At the Future Shop, i was able to listen to the Antec Lansing speakers i ended up purchasing as well as the Logitech models Z313 ($60.00), Z323 ($90.00) and Z523 (regular $120.00 but were on sale for $80.00 at the time).

While the logitech's sounded fine, i decided against for 2 reasons.

- the included subwoofers had more of a higher pitch sound to them (mentioned my own term previously as a "hybrid") and i wanted a sub that was pure bass. Isn't that what a sub is supposed to be

- none of those logitech systems had "all" the options at your fingertips on the satellite speaker as the Altec Lansing did.

 

OK...Thanks Tobacco..Good stuff.
BTW..How long are the cables ?

 

Well, i wouldn't say long. But long enough for my use as everything plugs into the back of the sub which i have on the floor behind my computer desk. Lengths as follows:

Main power from sub to outlet (i'm using multi-plug surge protector as well) - 6 feet
Right Satellite cable (much thicker than left because of power, volume, etc controls) - 6 feet
Left Satellite - 8 feet
Audio Source - 8 feet

And forgot to mention that the satellites contain a down-firing speaker as well so it projects nicely around the room.

 

For a subwoofer, upto 300Hz, up, down, left, right, forward, backward, it doesn't matter in which direction the speaker is pointed.
Is why there is only one subwoofer in any system.
Bass is not percieved directionally as other frequencies are.

In sound advice, let him who has ears hear.