More *^%$$&^%.  newbie questions

Discussion in 'Trojan Defence Suite' started by Soul_Flame, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Hi guys, I'm testing out tds-3 and had a few questions.  

    My first question is re the nature of the threat.  I've now downloaded and run tds-3 on my home and work PCs.  These PCs are always connected to the internet, and I"ve downloaded hundreds, if not thousands, of programs and files with each.  That is to say, neither has been living in a cave.  They've been 'out there' doing the types of things I'd suppose make one susceptible to trojans.  On both scans, both machines came up trojan free.  So i'm wondering, if with all the surfing and downloading i've already done I haven't picked up any trojans, why should i pay money to obtain a trojan detector?  I should also mention that my home machine is behind a linksys nat router, and runs nav2002, zap 3.x and adaware.  So I guess the real question is, with that security setup what is the marginal benefit to be gained by running a trojan detection package?  Is this important because in the future we see the nature of online threats evolving FROM viruses to also include more trojan threats?

    My second question regards the nature of  TDS-3 compared to TrojanHunter.  They both look like fine packages and I'd enjoy hearing what differentiates these programs.

    Thanks guys.
     
  2. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    Hello SF,

    Leaving your first question up for the DCS moderators, your second one:

    Will not be addressed on this forum. Feel free to open a new thread in "other anti-trojan software" and ask this question over there. This forum is for specific TDS questions only.

    regards.

    paul
     
  3. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Well, then how about telling me specifically how TDS is different (and presumably from your perspective, better) than it's "major competitors"?  Is that not a question regarding TDS?  I'm not asking you to sell me on brand x, i'm trying to find out why I should buy TDS.
     
  4. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    You'll find the main differences on our anti-trojans page:

    www.wilders.org/anti_trojans.htm

    Comparison charts are not the purpose from this specific forum, as stated above.

    regards.

    paul
     
  5. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Paul, thanks, but I already read that page.  Frankly, it does little to directly compare the products in my mind, it doesn't really offer comparitive reviews, but marketing thumbnails that basically lists what each product does.   Put simply, it doesn't answer my questions.

    So, since it's obvious as the moderator you will not allow this discussion to take place here, and since the forum to which you referred me has no threads that specifically discuss TDS and why many feel it is superior to its competitors, and since the official TDS forum is off limits to someone like me, then frankly I'm stuck.  

    I find this perplexing.  This is the only product related forum I've ever encountered that doesn't want to discuss why someone giving that product a trial should make it their product of choice.

    If you have any resources that can answer my question, I'll gladly pursue them.

    regards

    Rick
     
  6. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    Hi Rick,

    No offense, but this forum is not intended for these questions. It's a TDS forum; no more, no less.

    But it does: have a look at the threads:

    "Eric Howes Trojan Test 2"
    " *update*..."

    Seems we have a misunderstanding here. All questions in regard to TDS in specific are very welcome in this specific forum - that's what this forum is all about. All other questions can be asked at the appropriate place - as I pointed out earlier on. We'd like and prefer to stick to the goals for each separate forum. That's all there's to it.

    No problem: have a look at the threads mentioned above.

    regards.

    paul
     
  7. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Thanks Paul.  Actually, I've already read results of Eric's two tests, and I've read the results of tests at a number of other sites.  Unfortunately, the more test results I read, the more confused I get.  Moreover, while I appreciate what Eric did, I'm not sure how much stock to put in his methodology.  But that's a different topic.

    Perhaps I haven't posted with sufficient clarity.  Really, all I'm looking for is for tds users to give me an idea of why they feel that should be my product of choice for trojan protection.    But it sounds like the consensus here is that the page at wilders.org summarizing some of the different trojan packages out there should suffice.  Since I found that resource not particularly helpful, I guess I'll take my search elsewhere.  

    Still, can't help but feel I just walked into a Mercedes dealership and asked a sales consultant why I should buy one of his cars as opposed to a BMW or Lexus and got told "go ask someone else, we don't answer those kinds of questions here."

    ;)
     
  8. root

    root Registered Member

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    HI  Soul_Flame. I'm a TDS3 user and I am very happy with it. I like the redundant features it has in ferretting out the bad guys.
    I too have downloaded a ton of stuff for years. I will only say that haveing AT and AV protection is like living in Chicago and facing the choice, do you lock the door when you go out at night or do you leave it open?
    It's all about averages and when's it my turn. Or yours?  :eek:
     
  9. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    You're most welcome. Surely every test performed has its own merit.

    Your question wasn't that general; you asked for comparisons, in specific regarding two anti-trojan programs. The way you formulate your question now is quite different.

    Not at all; I referred to tests performed - and you have read a number of tests yourself as well. Seems you did take your search elsewhere before posting here.  

    Well, this is a support forum for those test driving TDS and having questions - like your first question. This is not a "dealership forum": we are not selling anything here. True: we might prefer software X above software Y; this forum is hosted here for good reasons. I do doubt anyone is waiting for a sales talk; any salesman will tell you his product is by far the best.

    Thus, it's quite simple in the end: this TDS forum is for questions in regard to TDS in specific, and questions coming with the use of TDS.

    And without any doubt, if you want to meet satisfied users, you will find them over here - like root is for instance.

    Finally, I do hope you enjoy the TDS test drive - perhaps to a degree you'll make it your favorite anti-trojan software choice.

    Best wishes,

    paul
     
  10. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Hi Paul,

    Actually, the intent of the question is the same from the beginning, I've just been neutering the wording trying to come up with SOMETHING that you folks will respond to.  I swear, you guys are making this WAY more difficult than it needs to be, I just don't get it.  I'm genuinely interested in TDS-3, I'm also interested in TrojanHunter.  I figure "hey, what better place to find out why some people choose TDS over TH than the TDS public forum".  Stupid me, it's obvious you guys have some problem with discussing it.  I don't care if you don't mention a competitor, that's fine by me.  I'm just interested in WHY you folks chose TDS over something that wasn't TDS, and maybe by hearing your rationale that will help me make MY decision.  But nope, "we don't discuss that here."  Um, ok, whatever.  

    And my metaphor is flawed, now that I think about it.  It's not like walking into a dealership and asking a salesman to sell me.  It's like going to a meeting of a collector's club, people that (for example) are BMW enthusiasts.  They flat out love BMWs, that's their car of choice, they modify them, they discuss them, they have a community that's built up around them.  Their meeting is open to the public so I walk in and ask "so, what is it about BMWs that you like so much, and why did you choose BMWs over a different car?"  And they respond "sorry, we're not going to talk about that here".  

    It's strange, frankly.  Yes, I looked at every topic in that other thread.  I read Eric's reviews and the 'extra' topic.  NONE of em answer my question.  

    I don't know if you think I'm some interloper or something, or if you think my interest isn't genuine.  It is.  I want to make the best decision re trojan protection, and then I'll buy a registered version.  

    But to go to a TDS-3 forum and ask the folks what they like about TDS-3 that made them buy it instead of something else, and be told it's off topic, that's just bizarre.  
     
  11. FanJ

    FanJ Guest

    The Wilders Security Forums have several parts.
    If you have a question about why users like TDS-3 more than Trojan Program Y, or on the contrary why they like Trojan Program Y more than TDS-3, then this is not the appropriate forum-part. In that case, just put your question in the forum-part "Other anti-Trojan software" please.
     
  12. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    That's a good suggestion, maybe more points will show up.
    I'm a devoted TDS user for many reasons, among which my computer safety and lots of other features.
    I too downloaded hundreds of files over the last couple of years, but in most cases from reliable source it seems, scanned afterwards before installing and only in very few instances there were alarms and now with the latest references TDS found in some files suspicious codes without telling it to be positive identifications of anything specific, so for sure they are working on and refining their product all time.
    In case something would be a false positive (which can happen with any av/at product) that is corrected immediately.
    TDS is much more then just a scanner, with all the...about 50 other tools included. So it's the detection, quality, possibilities, once you know the product user friendlyness, i really love the possibility to add your own scripts and a lot more, all those extra's like looking into the packets streams and traffic bridge, etc. And i like to scan my whole network with it.
    Not in the last place their support, which i've always found very educative, helpful, patient, kind, new features for us users all time, and the ways how the operators help each other.
    We have even two whole forums for this!
     
  13. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Fan J...you want me to put my question about TDS-3 in the forum about OTHER anti trojan software?

    I"ll say it again:  asking folks why they purchased TDS-3 instead of a competitor, and asking it in the TDS-3 forum, and being told it's off topic is beyond bizarre.
     
  14. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Jooske....THANK YOU for that response.  That starts to finally get at the heart of the matter.  If I may, I'd like to ask a couple followups.

    First, you mention scripting capabilities.  Can you give me a feel for what types of things the scripts can do for you?  Please bear in mind I'm not a technically-oriented kind of guy, so if you could address it from a functionality perspective I'd appreciate it.

    Second, you mention the 50 other tools.  From that I infer that TDS is really far more than 'just' an anti trojan package, that it does other things as well. Could you give me a basic feel for what some of the most important 'other things' are?

    Thank you very much for your response, much appreciated.
     
  15. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    Personally, I think the man's right (now that he's re-phrased the question).

    People, what made you buy TDS instead of something else? In other words, what features in TDS made you give up the bucks instead of spending them elsewhere?

    For me, what played a large part in the decision was two things entirely un-related to the program itself and one that was:

    (a) TDS, from the instant the MagicLantern issue arose, unflinchingly chose to detect and clean it if the defs became available. An awful lot of the other AV/AT providers out there waffled, spin-controlled, reversed their original decisions/ statements on this or just plain outright stated that they would  not detect/clean ML, period. (See this reference thread from the old board: http://pub24.ezboard.com/fsecureyesecurityfrm6.showMessage?topicID=160.topic ).

    With the current climate of 'let's let the government do whatever they want to us' in this country, that stance by TDS stuck with me.

    (b) TDS takes a pro-active stance when it comes to doing something about people who try to pirate their software. While everyone else sat quietly and ate their losses and simply passed any increased operating costs on to the registered end-user, TDS tried to protect both their copy-written software and it's purchasers.

    What it boils down to in these two cases is that TDS is a stand up program.

    They stand up to governments.

    They stand up to software pirates.

    IOW, they stand up for their users!

    (You may have guessed that I don't care for gutless software manufacturers - you'd be right).

    (c) I like the fact that (when you really do decide to get into the program options) you can start using the scripts and socket features to 'play'.

    And, actually, I like the fact that there's a private forum! I can get a lot quicker response from any of the knowledgable people who frequent it - without having to expose either my ignorance or a potentially damaging file issue to the entire Internet community. (one thing you won't find me talking about in this forum is scan results - I will not be discussing what's found on my computer where everyone can see it - exposing any weaknesses/vulnerabilites I might have wouldn't make sense from a security stand-point, why let anyone know where/if you're weak? ).

    Soul_Flame, I hope this is actually the type of thing you were wanting to hear. In the end, it boils down to whose philosphy suits you best and what program best meets your needs with the highest level of protection.

    I'll butt out now, but I want everyone to realize that I haven't bashed a single program by name here - please let's not start that. Pete

    (Sigh) Since you're un-registered here I can't PM you this, but have you thought about asking a similar question at the TH forum? It's here: http://www.misec.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=TrojanHunter . We're definitely not hesitant to link you to other forums in your quest for information with which to arrive at a decision - we're here to help you.
     
  16. Soul_Flame

    Soul_Flame Guest

    Spy1......thank you kindly.  That is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was looking for.  You've given me some additional information to go pursue, I appreciate that.  I'm not familiar with the lantirn issue, should be an interesting read.  And that's the first rationale I've heard for a private forum that makes any sense.  I still think it would be better and leave a less funky taste in one's mouth if y'all would be more upfront about it and why it exists, and have the registration key be the password and just put a link out to it for all to see.  You want in?  Buy the product.  But I read stuff like the thread where someone is posting things like "don't tell em where we are" and I just laugh.  It sounds like kids in junior high with their secret club.

    But that's off topic.  Again, thank you for sharing your perspective on TDS.  It's much appreciated.

    And to echo what you say, I'm honestly NOT trying to get anyone to bash anyone else's product.  That wasn't the intent of the original post, and it's not my intent now.  I'm glad I found a way to word it that expresses what I'm after in a way folks can feel comfortable answering.

    Regards

    Rick
     
  17. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    One of the main things of course is quality of the product in the tools we use, among others of course the scanning engines and large database growing each day with new references and the many techniques included to find the possible nasties from the deepest caves of your system and protect you for them.
    Did you see among others the 16 ways to smell a RAT? in the helpfile and on the web site? It's more now, but these are some of the more significant ways.
    Of course the netstat with detection and killing options, i love to delete unwanted keys from the autostart without the need of rebooting to be really rid of them, examining dlls and files from the process list, and the many tools and plugins to deal with traffic, ports, connections, packets, which you can even change while sent to or from your system, traffic bridge etc; i like the possibility to have my whole network scanned, from the scan results i can examine the file and choose to leave or delete it or send it for further examination to DCS lab with one click of the button, ......
    support, frequent updates (today i had two or three) and private forum we mentioned: we love it as our own playfield and for lots of extra background info/education/ testing, working on scripts together, etc.
    In scripting i'm one of those examples of people with only a vague idea of putting one or two lines and see a result like making the system via TDS say some words.
    In TDS i found speech technology, which is part of the MSAgents and speech technology. These robots and characters on your screen are not just fun, but can be really useful and there was a whole psychology behind them to ever create them and we see the kind of technology used all over internet.
    I posted that little "helpfile" script to show some little interaction of using a script with one of the MSAgents, interactive with writing in the TDS console , playing a wave file, and possibities to have the program starting other programs. More advanced versions i included in a cokemachine script which uses among others voice commands to let the agent open programs, sending email, playing music, as well as serious options in TDS of course and using forms with buttons and images and waves, etc.
    We always say the possibilities are only limited by our imagination.
    If you want to make a remote controlled wake up with coffee and noice script or a jukebox you can.
    Very serious scripts are created by users as well, via the forum, emulators, alerts, protection, examining log files, and a lot more. You can steer your whole system and network with it if you like, with or without scripts. This we users learn all together in the forum so we educate and are not alone frustrated (maybe) working on a thing we don't understand but find solutions together.
    Of course, as you have seen in the little configuration script, which is really a first start basic, you can use TDS just as a normal scanner, but it is so much more than that.
    I really like the philosophies behind it, the ways of DCS doing business, and the many other real sincere comments of the users. We might feel a bit exclusive and proud and bound with this software, so we do speak of the family feeling.
    Maybe i should say it's women friendly as well, as there are many female operators of whom several have shown themselfs very knowledgeble.... which is part of the trends these days of women taking security very serious as well and find their ways in TDS and with WormGuard.
    I like the other comments here as well and reasons mentioned.
    Quality, reliability, timely updates, userfriendly in many ways (once you're familiair with the possibilities), originality, etc.

    Edited:
    As i just see in the other thread you use XP, i can add it works on all windows versions.
    http://www.security-pro.co.uk/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=dcstds;action=display;num=1013437821;start=20
    In this thread about v4 i explained what XP users need to do to have the spech technology for the TDS and MSAgents funtioning. You have the whole core part already, you might miss some characters, although there are several on your cd-rom as well which you can install and if you did not yet you'll find the links to the specific runtimes /sapi 4 you'll have to get beside the sapi 5 you have already.
    I'm not running XP so can't answer your RAM/resources question in the other thread.
     
  18. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Guest

    Just want to underline some of the points Jooske made.

    When I bought a TDS3 license I had previously tested a couple other competive products (although not Trojan Hunter) and was very impressed with the trial-capable features of TDS and eager to try the registered-only ones :)

    And I was not the least bit dissapointed. Tasks which needed 10 other applications (portscanner, netcat, bintext or strings, Process Explorer, tcpview, etc...) now could be done with TDS and its add-ons. I have found the support to be superb and possibly more important the exchange of views, etc with the other users on the private forum to be very helpful. Many of the script writers (such as Jooske) are very free with their time (and scripts!) to allow you to tailor your TDS setup to your needs.

    I understand you need to take this sort of thing on faith until you DO register, but from one who has taken the leap, "I have no regrets"  :D
     
  19. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    Hmm i'm not much of a script writer, more the fun trials. But yeah, you're right i never had any security tool with so much fun included too!
    It most certainly changed my views on the security world on the basis of protecting my system.
    The system gives so much room for and stimulates own imagination and creativity, for sure!
    But for those who want can just run it and forget about it, maybe integrate some timers and tasks as well as scripts for remote controlled ordering coffee .. whatever....
     
  20. linney

    linney Registered Member

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    What got me in to TDS was the high regard it was held in as I visited various security forums.  The knowledgable users ready to assist you on either of their forums.  And the great support from Wayne and Gavin at TDS.

    Yes it is a bit daunting for the new user, but only if you try the advanced options before your ready for them.  As a new user I found the "set and forget" basic setup not much more complicated than any virus or firewall type program.  I just wanted it to scan for Trojans and it has from day one.

    There is so much more to it than basic scanning, but this can be learnt at your own pace.   Plenty of help is available along the way.

    I also like the almost daily updates.  From my experience with other software this is a well written program performing as it should.
     
  21. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    Thanks for the kind comments, as this is how most "family" operators feel. Most people are very devoted to the products, the DCS people, the forums, the whole lot. I don't have this with none of my other products, although as a beta tester for several there is some more personal contact, but TDS is very special in every sense.
     
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