Discussion in 'privacy problems' started by ronjor, Jul 31, 2014.
Everyone wants global jurisdiction, it seems
So what does Microsoft do when the EU says that turning over the Irish data is illegal?
(Or has it already?)
No speculation here. Just have to see what happens.
Doubtful they'll do anything. Unfortunately the U.S is in the right on this one..so long as those emails belong to U.S users. All MS could really do is stop operating in the U.S, and even then in order to avoid this entirely they'd have to stop doing business with U.S customers. Of course that isn't going to be happening. Unless I've missed something somewhere, this only applies to warrants for users who live/are based in the U.S. If it means that they have changed warrants to apply to people outside of the U.S and whatever the warrant is issued for is not illegal in both the U.S and the resident nation, then ~ Snipped as per TOS ~ them and it's time to start a multi-nation fight to tell the U.S where it can shove its warrants. I don't believe that is the case, but it really doesn't matter when the U.S has been as pushy and so willing to ignore or change laws that kept powers in check. Sadly the administration could cause some really ugly and frustrating problems for Microsoft if they fight back, so don't expect to see much resistance at this point. They can appeal of course, but they'll have to find one of the few judges not afraid to step on toes or agree with the Justice Department. It could go back and forth for years, and I'm betting MS doesn't want to really deal with that. I just hope no one starts flaming MS for it because they aren't the bad guys in this situation.
We'll see, I guess. Me, I'm very happy to see Microsoft standing up here. And they clearly have the support of their peers.
I was maybe too ambiguous about drawing a parallel to the "right to be forgotten" case with Google. And there, Microsoft seems to be going out of its way to make nice with the EU.
If every nation has jurisdiction over every Internet firm (no matter where located) that does business with anyone within its borders, we have quite a mess, no?
We have a huge mess. I can easily see this new ruling leading the way for every country to do it, although many already have. What will be interesting is how the U.S reacts to such requests given to them. The right to be forgotten ruling will quickly become a disaster for citizens. It's already being used to censor "unfavorable" reviews/talk. One of the many "the road to hell is paved with good intention" type laws we keep seeing enacted. I give MS credit for not just rolling over at the first showing of teeth, but I don't see them getting very far in this instance. Ireland would have to have some major leverage and back MS up, but they just don't have that kind of clout. Again though, U.S business with operations on U.S soil dealing with U.S users, there's not much to fight against in this case. I don't know Mirimir, things are just getting all kinds of screwed up in the world, and the U.S seems to be leading the way. I have no idea what they'll do about it.
They don't get the Internet, I guess.
Oops, bad choice of words
They don't understand the Internet, I mean.
If things get nasty, there won't be an Internet
Oh they understand it. For governments, it's a way for their people to find out things that governments aren't all that thrilled about people finding out. It represents freedom of information and knowledge, of speech. It's a, up until now at least, uncontrolled technological powerhouse that just keeps on letting us do more and more and bringing the world closer together ((although that has its downsides, such as social media obsession..which ironically has led to less freedom of speech instead of its intended effect.)). For corporations such as ISPs, the music and TV/film industries, it's a direct threat to their tired and ages old way of doing business. Netflix kills cable in a lot of ways unless you're a sports fan, and Spotify further shoves the 15 dollar CD further into its grave.
The internet and all the technologies born with it break the chains. Neither governments or big business wants those chains broken, so they are doing everything they can to make living out of them so damned frustrating and issues so unavoidable that people give in and fall back in line. Things are already nasty, and they are just going to get nastier. We have a seriously long fight ahead of us and sadly technology won't win it for us. The right people need power again, and those people include us citizens.
I'm afraid Microsoft's gonna lose this one for sure. For example, if the person who is the subject of the investigation was in Dublin and had in his possession copies of all of his emails he had sent via Microsoft's servers or stored on Microsoft's servers, there is a Federal Statute that allows the US Govt to issues a subpoena for that person to appear in a US court and to bring with him all copies of such emails. I fail to see how the fact the the copies of the emails are stored on a Microsoft Server in Dublin makes a relevant difference:
Chapter 28 of the US Code (of federal law which covers Judicial Powers) Section 1783 states:
"§1783. Subpoena of person in foreign country
(a) A court of the United States may order the issuance of a subpoena requiring the appearance as a witness before it, or before a person or body designated by it, of a national or resident of the United States who is in a foreign country, or requiring the production of a specified document or other thing by him, if the court finds that particular testimony or the production of the document or other thing by him is necessary in the interest of justice, and, in other than a criminal action or proceeding, if the court finds, in addition, that it is not possible to obtain his testimony in admissible form without his personal appearance or to obtain the production of the document or other thing in any other manner.
They could hold each user to the originating countries laws and no other. The problem is that establishing where any particular user resides is problematic at best as VPNs or proxies can 'hide' the true origins of any given user. To hold every user to every countries laws would be even more problematic as they would overlap and contradict each other. The real solution is for all countries to unite as one which isn't going to happen within my lifetime. Instead each country is going to go in circles within their own systems and the 'worldwide' services (and users) suffer. /me eats popcorn....
Apple and Cisco have filed a joint amicus brief emphasising the importance of MLAT (multi-lateral treaties) - which include Ireland, and which may not significantly impede investigations; and the problems that corporations' officers may be in violation of criminal law in one jurisdiction or the other whatever they do.
Personally, I'm quite happy if this unilateral assertion of US hegemony proceeds because it will harm their cloud providers massively and contribute to the development of really secure services outside 5-eyes jurisdiction.
by Brad Smith
What if? Microsoft appeal ponders U.S. reaction to foreign data demand - Microsoft on the Issues
By Loek Essers
Microsoft PR Exercise, I doubt it will do much to limit the damage the spying revelations has done to their global market.
Posted December 15, 2014 By Brad Smith - General Counsel and Executive Vice President, Legal and Corporate Affairs, Microsoft
I wonder if the customer in Ireland has figured out it is him they are after...
Government files supporting brief for Microsoft in US email case
Say your thank yous for that.
Imagine if all countries unite under one giant government. Then imagine if that one giant government is taken over by people who follow ideas of [insert political group you hate here]. Even there are so many problems - there is a great goodness to having seperate laws in different countries.
More than that, virtually anything is illegal, immoral, etc somewhere, so an Internet subject to globally joint jurisdiction would quickly become boring and useless.
Microsoft, U.S. face off again over emails stored in Ireland
Just wait until the Chinese and Russians using warrants under their "laws" want email records which are stored here in the USA. In other words just reverse the scenario and watch them scream!!
of us corps.
Separate names with a comma.