"Mamutu: The end of an era"

Discussion in 'other anti-malware software' started by ichito, Jun 24, 2013.

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  1. mattdocs12345

    mattdocs12345 Registered Member

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    I completely agree with this. I tried running several HIPS in the past and I ended up blocking things that not supposed to be blocked. I am strong believer now in layered approach that prevents infections. Firefox + NS and a good URL blocker can defeat 99% of infections coming from web browser. SBIE/SD is also additional choice for those that want a bullet proof protection. HIPS is just so inconvenient to use...
     
  2. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    Not really. Making it Freeware was actually our very first thought when we talked about Mamutu's future a few months ago. We quickly dropped that idea when we started estimating how much effort it would take to actually turn Mamutu into a Freeware app. We stopped when our estimates reached the 3 months mark. Delaying EAM 9.0 and some other not yet announced products for at least 3 months to turn a product that had less users over the past couple of years than there are views on this thread right now, simply isn't worth it.
     
  3. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    If you let me know your order number, I can arrange a partial refund based on the amount of time your Mamutu license has still left.
     
  4. 0strodamus

    0strodamus Registered Member

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    Why not convert existing license holders to non-expiring licenses on their current installation with the caveat that they get no updates or support after December 31st, 2013?
     
  5. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    Because that would require us to keep user data around that we would prefer to delete.
     
  6. Brandonn2010

    Brandonn2010 Registered Member

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    At least 3 months to make it freeware? Huh...
     
  7. Empath

    Empath Registered Member

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    Emsisoft's Antimalware doesn't work on my computer. I purchased it last December, thinking I'd run it instead of Mamutu, since the function is included. The file guard refuses to activate, no matter what, so I reinstalled and stuck with Mamutu. I guess I'll just abandon the whole thing now.
     
  8. Syobon

    Syobon Registered Member

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    bye mammoth.
     
  9. EASTER

    EASTER Registered Member

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    3 months? I take it then that the current development department regard the recoding of mamutu. suitable as a freeware far more an intensive effort then one might expect.

    Too bad it couldn't been done in a far shorter time frame but the idea at all is well appreciated.

    Easter
     
  10. justenough

    justenough Registered Member

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    After uninstalling Mamutu, use Emsiclean before installing Emsisoft Anti-Malware. http://tmp.emsisoft.com/fw/emsiclean.exe
     
  11. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    The bare minimum changes required to make Mamutu useful as a Freeware for both you and us are:

    First we need to replace the entire licensing system. As you know Mamutu still uses the old user account based system, while Emsisoft Anti-Malware and Online Armor transitioned to a new key-based system several years ago. We really want to disable the old web services associated to those systems and get rid of the extra amount of data that we have in form of email addresses, passwords, and other data associated to old Emsisoft accounts. We can't do that as long as there are still products who depend on those services and data.

    Once we change the license system, we will have to make changes to systems depending on the license system as well. The most important ones being the update and cloud integration. The later is built on top of the update, where essentially the rule upload is taking place. So just saying that we simply don't need to provide updates isn't true. We do need to provide updates, because otherwise the cloud will never get the decisions you made, which is arguably one of the only benefits we would have in a Mamutu as Freeware deal.

    Since completing our cloud information and getting more data points would be the main motivation behind a move to a Freeware model, it also means that we need to make sure Mamutu stays useful in that regard. That means we will have to add all behavior blocker updates we make in EAM in Mamutu as well. If we don't it means Mamutu users don't record decisions made on newly introduced behavior based detections. As a consequence we either have to stick with the old behavior blocker interfaces to avoid having to update Mamutu or we need to constantly update Mamutu every time the behavior blocker changes as well. The first would mean we would continue to be crippled by outdated interfaces that make any meaningful upgrade to the behavior blocker, like rollbacks, more informative alert messages, introduction of more complex behavior rules, and a few more things, impossible. The later would mean we not only have the initial 3 month minimum delay that I already mention, but continued delays throughout the entire future development until Mamutu is finally dropped completely.

    So we are already looking at a huge project at this stage, that involves server side backend changes as well as huge amounts of code changes within the Mamutu code base itself. And we haven't even touched fixing long standing GUI issues in Mamutu or making any changes to use Mamutu as some kind of advertisement platform for upselling Emsisoft Anti-Malware yet.

    If it was as easy as flipping a switch and suddenly Mamutu becomes Freeware, as some of you seem to think it is, we would have done it in a heartbeat. But that unfortunately isn't the case.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  12. J_L

    J_L Registered Member

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    You could remove all the cloud components (licensing, decisions, votes, whatever), and have Mamutu operate purely on user choice. You can also include a default whitelist (digital signatures, hashes, etc.) of system and popular programs.

    Just some suggestions I hope Emsisoft will consider.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  13. guest

    guest Guest

    It's not the money, it is just Mamutu was the last BB out there and I believe AV are really not the answer any more with 0 day attacks
    After hearing that you have less users than reply's in this thread I understand why, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, but that is life, waiting to see what you may have in the wings coming out:thumb:
     
  14. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    Ever wondered why game developers often don't remove certain game features but just hide them? Because removing code is actually quite a large code change that requires huge amounts of testing in all subsystems that depended on the removed code either directly or indirectly. Removing everything you suggest and testing that what is left is still working properly would take just as long as updating it.

    Such a whitelist would be meaningless without a way to update it in a convenient way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  15. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    Mamutu is not the last behavior blocker out there. It may be the last stand alone behavior blocker, but behavior blocking is very much alive. I also don't understand you argument. How comes that you trust a behavior blocker (Mamutu) but you don't trust the very same behavior blocker when combined with an AV (which essentially is EAM)?
     
  16. J_L

    J_L Registered Member

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    I said removing, because it's cleaner that way, but disabling should be faster right? At least there shouldn't need a dependency on the server, meaning it'll work offline.

    You can include it in the freeware version updates, I think there'll be low-frequency changes if you exclude hashes. Of course, Paranoid Mode and no updates are fine by many here.
     
  17. ichito

    ichito Registered Member

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    I think the matter can be much more in way of thinking - not in trust or lack of it...many of us here on Wilders and somwhere in the world are used to build security set that is based on standalone tools not on apps that cover huge areas. We like those small smart tools even if it's not trendy and against the common behaviour.
     
  18. justenough

    justenough Registered Member

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    A small point: Fabian Wosar said views on this thread, not replies.
     
  19. EASTER

    EASTER Registered Member

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    I have to concur. As a freeware standalone BB with some last generic rules and in Paranoid Mode, which is been the best part of Mamutu. in my experience with it before, you wouldn't need to do anymore to it as i remember it. It's native whitelist is/was if i remember easily configurable to add/remove lines.
    As freeware might no longer have the range that it does within Emsisoft's AM flagship product but it would prove plenty useful enough even after cutting the cord from the cloud for many just as is. Offline without any need to transfer signals thru or from your server anymore. In that form it would still be just adequate enough to fill in coverage against DLL injections and other machine behaviors under Paranoid Mode IMO.

    Maybe the Emsisoft team would like to re-evaluate and perhaps revisit and find some favor in the freeware idea again?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  20. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    Even if you just disable it, you would still have to find and disable all occurrences where the component was actually used, including verification that disabling it there has no side effects. You will still end up with a ton of changes and a huge amount of testing to be done.

    On one hand you suggest not providing any updates and disabling all components. Then you suggest whitelist updates should be included in the freeware version updates (of which there won't be any because the components are disabled). Do you suggest just providing new setups every once in a while? How do you propose should users be informed that a new setup with new whitelists is available?

    The problem is, that unless you have a multi million dollar certification business on the side to cross finance your highly specialized tools, live in a very low income country, or do these types of tools on the side next to a normal day job, there is no way you will make enough money to stay in business for long. Many companies have tried and they all failed. Simply because you can't live off of the clientele frequenting places like Wilders. Just take a look at how many companies tried to come up with their own specialized tools like firewalls, HIPS, behavior blockers and other stuff. They all disappeared eventually. Often without even informing the small number of users they had about what is going on.

    In the end, unless you are lucky enough to eventually get enough attention outside of specialized communities like Wilders to keep your business model running, you will either have to look for a larger company to buy you out or to just disappear.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  21. Fabian Wosar

    Fabian Wosar Developer

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    I already explained, that the only benefit we would have when making Mamutu Freeware would be additional information for the cloud. You are essentially proposing to still implement all the changes we would have to do in the first place (how are new users supposed to install Mamutu for example, if it still asks for username and password, when the webservices behind those functions are turned off for example?), but in addition also cut the cord to the cloud, completely removing any benefits for us entirely. If those benefits weren't enough to justify the Freeware release in the first place, how can you possibly think removing those incentives would make us change our minds?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  22. siketa

    siketa Registered Member

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    You could put 20$ price tag on and change it to Lifetime license. :D
    I would buy it...
     
  23. safeguy

    safeguy Registered Member

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    I've got to say that strictly from a business POV, splendid move.
     
  24. smage

    smage Registered Member

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    I personally think it's a good decision.

    It's all about being able to make enough money to have a sustainable business. Competition is getting really tough these days in the security industry, so many good products are available for free. The big companies like Symantec and Mcafee already have well established contracts where their software come pre-installed on users' PCs.

    A smaller company like Emsisoft has to compete with all these and it must generate enough revenue to inject into its research and development in order to survive.

    The way to go is to have an automated suite so as to target the wide audience. The costs of keeping a stand alone behaviour blocker unfortunately outweigh its benefits.
     
  25. Empath

    Empath Registered Member

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