Thanks again for all the comments. @Bill_Bright Thanks for your breakdown on the history. That said, I'm not going to argue with you about the intricacies thereof. I said " apparently" for a reason. Bad Caps is something I don't know about so I simply did a startpage search and that info was basically what came up. I cant remember the exact search phrases I used. In regards to referring to computers, I didn't mean TVs radios etc, but I did read that leaky Caps affected these. By "it" I meant Caps. Forever? a silly question. If the best way to preserve my security AND PRIVACY just entailed getting the latest and the greatest, I'd stump up in a heartbeat, no problem at all. I don't believe it is, so making my old hardware last as long as I can is more than just ho hum. If it wasn't I wouldn't have bothered with this post at all. As for XP -- Perhaps before going to extremes telling all people what to do about XP, here's a challenge! read ALL of the "Building your own privacy package" thread and/or others like it, and refute all the collective advice then back up what you say with practical alternatives including decent tutorials. Seriously, maybe you could open a thread somewhere giving exact details why 7,8,10 outstrip XP in Security AND PRIVACY. You also need to factor in your view of privacy is not likely to be considered the gold standard. @Mister B I agree. @Keatah We all know heat build up is a bad thing, adversely affecting any number of components in our computers and devices. Ive regularly placed a 14" fan at anything that gets a little toasty in hot weather such as an external sound card. Just asking again, does anyone know if its not good to leave the side panels off desktops? (only while testing things)
Thanks for clarifying. My point was, you said, "the machines I'm talking about are ancient (12-13 yrs)" and "seems a bit strange it fails now after all these years". I found those two statements conflicting and confusing so my apologies for appearing flippant in my asking if you expected it to last forever. The fact of the matter is, we (humans) do expect things we pay good money for to last forever. But that, of course, is not realistic. Many assume electronics - things with no moving parts - should last forever, but the reality is, electronic components do "wear" out over time because there are billions (trillions and trillions) of electrons (which do have mass) flowing through these devices, banging into the atoms and molecules of the device's materials, knocking off other electrons and sub-atomic particles along the way. Plus, as matter heats up and cools down, it expands and contracts which also creates wear and tear - especially on the bonds between different components within each device. So electronics wear out just as grains of sand in the wind can wear down a mountain. My point there was that you specifically said (with my bold added), "(where computers are concerned) it's only on desktops." Notebook motherboards suffered from leaky caps just as much as desktop motherboards. In fact, maybe more simply because notebooks (due to their compact and confined space) suffer more from heat build up and heat related problems than PCs. But again, because most users don't attempt their own maintenance and repairs on notebooks, leaky caps with notebook motherboards did not get as much "public" notice or publicity. I apologize again if stating "TVs, radios and more" clouded the point. Seriously? Sorry ronjor, but Reality is the OP and he brought it up. There is no reason to re-invent the wheel. There is overwhelming documentation out there showing how each successive version of Windows is more secure than the previous. Not accepting that is just burying heads in the sand. Can XP be secured? As I said above, yes - for now. But for a secured operating system to remain secure, it relies on being maintained by the developer and that is not happening. At best, a security program can only put a cover over newly discovered vulnerabilities. They cannot fix the vulnerability. And at some point, maybe today, maybe next year, even a cover will not do. And with Nearly 1 million new malware threats released every day, again, at some point, one will exploit XP's vulnerabilities with no hope of blocking it, fixing it, or preventing it. So basically, XP is an accident waiting to happen. An accident that will hurt others, not just the user. And for that reason alone (a threat to others), XP needs to go away. As far as security not being the gold standard, again read what is already out there. See why Microsoft has, since Windows 7, put security ahead of legacy support even at the risk of upsetting its deep pocket corporate users. See why Microsoft is sick and tired of being blamed for security failures when it is badguys and users failing to keep their systems updated who really are at fault. Read why socially engineered malware distribution methods are the most successful methods. Then, once you have educated yourself on the malware threat, see why I say users are always the weakest link and XP needs to go away. As for practical alternatives, I already gave you three. (1) Upgrade to more modern version of Windows, (2) Switch to one of the many capable and free versions of Linux or, (3) Block Internet access to and from the XP computer. Again, I am not unsympathetic here. I hated to retire my trusty old XP system too. That's why I repurposed it into a network storage device and used it as my backup server - after blocking Internet access in my router. Retiring old but still working electronics is a way of life. We have done this before with our CRT TVs for LCD flat screens, 4:3 monitors for widescreens, VCRs for DVD players. And record players for cassette players for CD players to MP3 players. I can't tell you how many perfectly good cell phones I've retired. Not to mention old 486 computers and tiny hard drives.
Well, I mostly agree with Bill about capacitors. Electrolytics are the most likely component to fail in any electronic device and there are periodic bad batches manufactured that cause premature failures in mass. Sometimes they can last 30 to 40 years and sometimes it just takes a couple. The big ones with plated through connectors are actually the easiest to replace but it still requires some soldering skill and equipment. A good piece of equipment to have to check local temperatures is in infrared laser thermometer. You can check for temperature differences with the panels on and off and see if it does make a big difference.
I agree 100%. These are really handy, but not just for checking computer temps. I use mine to check my grill, skillet, refrigerator, the wall next to the furnace thermostat, the dog's nose (don't shine in eyes!) and more. In fact, after dropping my last one in a sink full of water , I replaced it with one from Grill Grates and could not be happier.
True enough. But I have two Adesso USB trackpads that are working well after ~15 years The older ATA one hasn't worked since USB became the norm for keyboards and mice. I even tried a serial adapter. I totally agree. However, Microsoft has also moved toward the Google surveillance model. Especially since 7. So yes, it's far more secure against malware than XP ever was. But it cannot be reliably secured against snooping by Microsoft. And users are also vulnerable to whomever Microsoft shares data with.
No they haven't. Google is much more aggressive than Microsoft - by far! Android was developed by Google. They use cell towers to pinpoint your physical location to within a few meters. On computers, Google tracks your data to toss up ads based on your searching patterns among other spying tactics - including what you write in gmail. No, Microsoft is not spying on you with Windows 10 Five Windows 10 privacy settings that have been falsely vilified That's not uncommon. Same with printers and many other devices. Many new motherboards don't even have one EIDE drive connector any more. My trusty old APC Smart-UPS communicates to a PC through the old style serial cable which motherboards stopped supporting years ago. But as ronjor noted, we need to say on topic.
@Bill_Bright Apologies accepted. We all know in forums, words can be misconstrued. I heard you on the laptop thing (the first time) and it made sense. As I intimated, I started from a pretty much zero knowledge with this and as we all should do, I did some searching. There's many reputable sites online, and none of us have time to cover all bases as to which these are in a given area. Again, that's why I said "apparently". To be clear, I certainly don't expect things to last forever and never said as much but I do believe in looking after equipment to get a reasonable lifespan out of it and the longer the better. XP is related to this thread in that if it wasn't for wanting to keep it, I wouldn't bother about the caps considering the machines age. You made a blanket statement saying XP needs to go. For that part I need to say I disagree, and I didn't intend for this to be turned into an XP bashing thread. If you really have constructive advice to give, then take that challenge, otherwise end of story . Lastly, I agree if a person is going to use XP they need to take some extra steps to make it safe which have been covered elsewhere. Bill, one more thing, stop twisting what I said. I did not say "security not being the gold standard" I said "You also need to factor in your view of privacy is not likely to be considered the gold standard." Vast difference. @MisterB thanks for your comments on capacitors and panels off. @mirimir Exactly....and that is the whole point about security AND privacy and which I take, is the main reason these forums exist. I always try to make my hardware choices with Security and Privacy in mind and the way things are going that is becoming more difficult. In the broad scheme of things, blaming MS, Apple, Google, Facebook, Twitter, et al more than each other is an exercise in futility and only generates red herrings. Since theyre all conduits for surveillance, none of them can be trusted enough to give me the confidence to do certain things AFAIC. Back to Capacitors. I might see if my fix it guy wants to give it a go for a reasonable price otherwise it's time to just trash it and the tower sure takes up a lot of room.
And I am not twisting your words. I am trying to illustrate a point that must not, but sadly is being ignored. And I am not bashing XP. It was an outstanding operating system for over 8 years - "was" being the operative word. And that past qualifier is for 2 irrefutable (in spite of what some may want to believe) reasons. (1) Keeping in mind XP was designed to support legacy software and hardware, that is, 1990s hardware and software technologies, the state-of-the-art in hardware technologies has advanced beyond the capabilities of XP and (2) the sophistication, perversity, and proliferation of badguys and the malicious code they produce! That is, the security limitations of XP. Sorry, but this is a contradiction with your desire (stubbornness?) to keep XP. While related, there is a HUGE difference between privacy and security. Microsoft is NOT in ANY way attempting to compromise your computer or to gain remote control over it. Microsoft is NOT in ANY way attempting to hack your computer to get your credit card numbers, bank account passwords, or to learn your mother's maiden name. Microsoft is NOT in ANY way attempting to learn your email contacts. Microsoft is NOT in ANY way attempting to turn your computer into a zombie machine, then draft it into a bot-army for distributing spam, malware, or to conduct DDoS attacks against others. Those are all "security" issues (that is, NOT "privacy" issues) that XP is ill-equipped to thwart. There is nothing Microsoft can glean from your system that your ISP, added toolbars, or your favorite search engine does not already know! If you truly think XP now is protecting your "security" (or your privacy), you are sadly mistaken. Now back to capacitors, I would not waste time or money on this except as a fun learning project. I sure would not pay anyone else to replace them. I might, to keep my soldering skills honed, do it. If that sounds like something you would like to do, then I say, go for it. Make sure you have a steady hand, and a good soldering pencil - I recommend one no more than 40 watts, 45 watts at the most, if you are fast and steady.
Bill you twisted my words. OK Im telling you straight. Enough. This is NOT the place to discuss XP at this level. Go elsewhere and do it. Soldering is not something I want to do at this point even for fun. Too many other things to do.
No, I didn't. I quoted you, then replied. The facts about XP remain the same, regardless how you feel about them. And they are not my opinions, but actual facts. Just as the differences between security and privacy are facts, and those differences remain the same too, especially as they apply to modern operating systems, like W10. But I am not here to argue or ruffle feathers. So I agree, this is for a different discussion. Then at this point, you need to determine the value (to you) of this system now, and how much, if any, you want to put into it. As I noted, there are sites that specialize in recapping motherboards and they do it for fairly reasonable fees. And because they are experienced soldering on multi-layered circuit boards, they do a good job, and guarantee their work. The problem is, once you recap a board, you will still have 12-13 year old electronics - including all the other components on the motherboard, and I am assuming the RAM, CPU, and graphics card (if not integrated) too. Perhaps you still have 12 - 13 year old drives and power supply in there as well. Old (obsolete) RAM and CPUs are often hard to find, and generally expensive too. Often, the only available replacement options are used parts off eBay. If that board does not support SATA drives, even EIDE (PATA) drives are becoming less available. So do you keep throwing good money after bad and be nickel and dimed to death? Or do you write it off and buy all new? Only you can answer that. But for my humble opinion, if an old motherboard or computer had some historical significance, I can see putting money into it. Like an old Commodore 64, Altair, or original Mac or IBM PC. But typically, with a 13 year old PC, it is the data on these old systems where the real value is. And that data can much more easily be brought into current times (if you don't wait too long), than keeping the old computer working. A simple EIDE to USB adapter can safely, efficiently, and cheaply make that possible.
Nope, you twisted it plain and simple. You said "As far as security not being the gold standard," I said "You also need to factor in your view of privacy is not likely to be considered the gold standard." Maybe I should give you some lines and get you to repeat it , what, a thousand times to see if the message gets through. You can have the last say on XP it wont make any difference at all. Now lets leave it at that. I certainly am looking at getting an adapter, which not only does IDE > USB but SATA as well. In my jurisdiction they're pretty pricey, but it's looking like a great option with HDDs lying around the place and mounting up. The mobo I've been referring to in this thread is a gigabyte P4Titan, the other board that I *think* is dead (was going to breadboard it but haven't had time, and it would be a first) is an ASUS P4PE, same era. Will look at the writing on the caps on the Asus just as a matter of being curious and compare. The only time I would consider playing around with taking a MB out is if I have nothing to lose and curiosity REALLY got the better of me, and that can blow hot and cold. I can see that there is a diminishing point of return with keep the old going, basically digging a hole to fill it up again. As explained above, I'd trash it in a heartbeat .... and I concede the dated architecture of these machines is going to be more problematic as time goes on. I've been considering Linux options again, and after some recent searching into that, I have to say for a newbie it still looks somewhat daunting. There seems to be a lot of rivalry making it confusing to choose which is the best option, plus, again its time priorities. Sometimes you just want stuff to work without facing yet another steep learning curve.
On that hardware, Mint Cinnamon would work as well as Xp more than likely but there is a learning curve and I would recommend partitioning the disk in two equal partitions, installing Xp the first one and then installed Mint on the other one and letting Grub dual boot them to see if Linux really will work for both machine and user. I recommend Mint in this because it is set up to be not too difficult for Windows and the learning curve is not so bad. There are really inexpensive IDE to Sata adapters that just plug into the back of an SATA drive and have an IDE PATA cable connector on the other side of the board and that is what work best. No need to use a USB drive which would be a lot slower.
Well now that I've got this HP Core2 Duo up and running with XP Pro I'm probably not going to be needing to use SATAs in the old machine, but I'd more than likely still want to access the old IDE drives from the HP on the odd occasion when the old machine does die ...which, as we've all discussed can happen at any time. I wouldn't even bother putting the drives in an external case. As it stands at the moment, there's just an 80GIG XPPro HDD and 40GB XP Home HDD in the old computer. I always have my drives with 2 partitions. What I am enthused about though is with the HP I can boot from USB. The two old machines couldn't do that. I was hoping to try Linux out on a bootable USB when I get time to look into how to do that.
My mistake - though twisting implies intention, I did not intent to twist privacy and security. In fact, my intent was to show their differences. My apologies. My intention was to dispute your claims, not twist them. You implied that, in your view, privacy is the "gold" standard, or at least equal to security. That is just not true (unless, as Ed Bott noted, you are in the IT Press seeking sensationalized headlines). Security IS the gold standard we must go by - thanks to the badguys, not Microsoft. Security MUST trump all (Freedom is NOT free!). And because XP is a potential threat to the rest of us, not just the user, it needs to go away, or at least stay isolated from networks that have Internet access. Where the "twist" is happening is you misunderstanding and twisting the meaning of "privacy" with "security". They are not the same. You have expressed your desire to keep XP in part because of how you perceive Microsoft's "surveillance" practices as a threat to your "security". That is not true. And you apparently perceive surveillance as an equal threat to you as security vulnerabilities. Sorry, but that is not a rational comparison, nor is it sound rationale to keep XP. Again, with Windows 10, Microsoft is not attempting to compromise your computer or to gain remote control over it. They are not attempting to hack your computer to get your credit card numbers, bank account passwords, or to learn your mother's maiden name. They are not trying to get your email contacts or to turn your computer into a zombie machine for distributing spam, malware, or to conduct DDoS attacks against others. But with XP, badguys are attempting to do all those things, and more. And again, those are all "security" issues, NOT "privacy" issues. W10 is much more capable to deal with those issues now, and in the future. XP is ill-equipped to deal with now, and that will continue to get worse. And FTR, Windows Vista and Windows 7 are not too far behind either - though at least Windows 7 is still being maintained by Microsoft. **** If you have several HDs (both IDE and SATA) laying around and you have a need to access them frequently, then instead of one of those adapters, I recommend a docking station. I have one of these and really like it. There are some for just IDE or just SATA that less expensive. They are MUCH more convenient and robust than connecting and disconnecting cables all the time. And if aesthetics are important, the docking station looks better setting on your desk compared to a bunch of cables and connectors. Yes, they cost more, but IMO, well worth it if swapping drives in and out often is something you will be doing.
@Reality Here is a howto on replacing capacitors on a motherboard. It is equally applicable to replacing capacitors on any computer product pcb. http://www.capacitorlab.com/replacing-motherboard-capacitors-howto/ Dust does collect both in my front Panel and towards rear of case. Have to remove both panel covers to clean and at same time inspect. Everything looks in good condition. I don't ever recall running the PC with panel covers off and using a fan in hot weather although the pc is powered off when not in use. Are you having heat issues? Airflow good? Been fortunate to have XP running for 12+ years with mostly minor issues. In the past I have run different Linux distros on the system including on VM. At one time I had linux Mint on one drive and Windows XP on another drive.(Dual-boot) There are alternatives out there for those who question newer Windows OS's privacy issues. If your BIOS doesn't support USB boot you could look at PLoP Boot Manager. Haven't tried it myself for that purpose, but maybe someone else has.
KeyPer, thanks for weighing in. I periodically inspect for dust which I don't like and deal with accordingly. Regarding heat, I'm pretty particular about stuff running hot, which I also don't like. The PCs don't seem to have given me any trouble over the years. Occasionally the ambient temps get a little warm where the computers are situated but where I am geographically is moderate. Also when I have mulitiple devices running that can cause heat buildup so I like to have a fan running especially in summer. I've noticed with my old Mac G4 DP the fan can chug away and an external fan certainly helps. Of recent times (last year) as you know I've had cause to do swapping out of hardware. In testing this computer with the bad cap, I'd been swapping out the XP home HDD and the HDD I got out of the other system which I installed XP Pro on. I wanted to exercise lots of caution about having them both active at the same time in case of issues like correct master and slave positions and jumper settings which I was learning about. At this time I just left the cover off because I was doing lots of fiddling. Also I heard way back that leaving the covers off wasn't good because it could cause the air flow to be misdirected or something. Kinda made sense, but this full sized tower has a heap of room and aiming a fan at the innards was just me being extra cautious. So many things to look at. I've been looking at Virtual Box, but I need to learn the basics before even installing that. Yes the BIOS of the HP Ive got up and running does support USB booting.
It is surprising how many folks don't even consider ambient temps when addressing the cooling requirements of their computer equipment. My house faces East and has full exposure to the sun all morning through mid-afternoon. My computer room/office is on the front of the house on the 2nd floor and has two large windows. It probably does not help the house is 55 years old (in terms of good, or I should say lousy insulation). With 2 main computers, the backup server, 4 monitors (I have two on my primary computer) and 3 UPS, it did not take long for the room to easily start pushing 85°F, 10 - 15°F warmer than the rest of house. These high ambient temps directly impacted the temps of the computer components. And like you (and as suggested by the last line in my signature), I don't take kindly to "stuff running hot". That also caused the CPU, GPU, and PSU fans to run at or near full speeds and loud fan noise is something I don't like either! If you include at least 2 case fans per computer, that was 15 or so fans whirling at or near full speed in a 12 x 12 foot room. This extra heat was great during the cold Nebraska winters, but not during the warm spring and fall, and especially not during the hot summer months. My house has central air conditioning but my problem is the thermostat for the AC is in the hallway on the other side of the office wall. So after a couple hours of sun and computers heating up the office (and that common, uninsulated interior wall) the thermostat would kick in and freeze out the rest of the house (and burn up my bank account with the utility bill each month). I ended up buying a small 6000BTU window AC just for the office in the warmer months to keep ambient temps ~70 - 72°F. While that little AC ran a lot, my monthly electricity costs actually dropped as the house AC cycled on much less often. That said, motherboards, CPUs, PSUs, and even most GPUs have become much more "green" and efficient in the past few years. I built all new systems when W8.x came out, moving to SSDs. I also moved my backup server (and its monitor and UPS) into the basement. And I started putting faith in Windows sleep mode to work properly (previous, all systems ran 24/7). The office still can get 2 - 3°F warmer than the rest of the house but I no longer need the window AC.
As far as VirtualBox goes which I've used before I would recommend increasing the ram on the PC if you do go that route. Not sure what you have for ram presently but 2 or 3 gigs of memory would be better. Also slimming down the OS as much as possible will help as discussed in the "privacy package" thread. Haven't used VB in quite sometime so check vulnerabilities and updates. Also read info about leaving covers off which may affect airflow.
There are alternatives to electrolytic, most offer better life and reliability, but are more expensive and/or physically bigger, the main reason that electrolytic are used is cost. Like many electronic components, heat cycles, current cycles contribute to the life of a cap. As with all fluids the mean temperature has an effect on evaporation rate There is some evaporation all the time and with every use there is more evaporation. This leads to a reduction in capacitance and increase in ESR ( resistance to AC currents essentially), the capacitance could still be sufficient, but ESR increased to cause a defect in the circuit. Eventually they fail. If you continue to use your motherboard you will increase the demand on other capacitors in circuit, which will lead to shortening their life (as well as knock on effect out the total capacitance possibly being out of spec causing malfunction).
@Compu KTed, the HP has 2 GB RAM, HDD SATA, integrated graphics. Pretty sure this model can take 8GBs and unless I can get this VERY cheap I won't bother but I'm not complaining as I got the whole thing for nothing, but I'm only too aware, it too is on the "back straight". I agree that just like servicing and servicing and servicing an unremarkable old car it's eventually going to be the same with computers. Been wanting to post up for a while about hardware options with Security and Privacy in Mind. That'll be for the building your own privacy package thread as i'ts in line with what we're talking about there. Been doing a bit of reading at the VB forums and it seems to be inconclusive as to which Version is the last for my OS. Some are using V5 which isn't officially supported but don't report any trouble from what I've seen. @NGRhodes no worries, the bad cap computer is sitting there doing nothing and will remain so for now, but I have to boot once more to get a bit of important info off then it can just wait until I make a further decision on it. @zapjb intermittent problems? Not my favourite scenario in trouble shooting.
