Five ways manufacturers make devices hard to repair

Pentalobes? Is that like Nintendo's Triwing bs?

 

I had to search for that...

Found this which is handy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

Found this which is amusing:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthony...asy-is-it-to-punk-the-apple-rumors-community/

Also found some references to tri-wing type screws being used in some Apple products. So perhaps the answer is "very much like"?

 

But surely the cost difference would be minimal?

 

I don't think you understand how cut-throat the competition is among notebook makers. Pennies matter. A few dollars difference is way more than enough to persuade many users to go with the less expensive model.

Understand again, the vast majority of users do NOT look at notebooks (or any consumer electronics device - even the PC) from a maintenance or technician's point of view.

They are not demanding makers provide that kind of access.

An accessible, easy to clean notebook that has W7-64, 4Gb of RAM, an Intel i5 CPU, 16" screen, DVD RW drive, 1Tb WD hard drive and 1 year warranty is going to lose out to a harder to clean notebook with the exact same W7-64, exact same 4Gb, exact same Intel i5, exact same 16" screen, exact same DVD RW drive, exact same 1Tb WD HD and exact same 1 year warranty that costs less. Even just a few dollars less.

Remember, notebook and PC makers basically just assemble parts - and all the major components come from the exact same makers.

HP and Acer do not make graphics solutions or CPUs. They source (buy) their graphics solutions from NVIDIA and AMD and their CPUs from Intel and AMD. Same with memory controllers, the BIOS, drive controllers, RAM, even the motherboards themselves.

Getting back to surface mount components - another distinct and desirable advantage to going surface mount is space - a socket takes up space - maybe up to or more than a 1/4".

A single 1/4 inch, when talking about the thickness of the notebook, can easily keep buyers away. And again, a socket adds to inventory, logistics, and assembly costs too - costs the maker is not going to absorb.

No, I disagree. For one, I have NEVER seen unique screws used on notebooks. That of course, does not mean they don't exist, but I've seen a lot of notebooks. Some do use what some call tamper-resistant, but they are typically common (among technicians) torx (star) or Robertson (square). And they are not for liability (except where deadly voltages exist) but for [supposed ] warranty issues (a whole 'nuther ball of wax).

I have been complaining for more than a decade that there needs to be an ATX Form Factor standard for notebooks. The ATX Form Factor standard allows us consumers to buy any ATX PSU and any ATX motherboard and install it in any ATX case and know with confidence all the voltages, cable connections, mounting holes, etc. will align up, connect, and work perfectly together - regardless the manufacturer.

Because there is no ATX type standard for notebooks, "proprietary" rules. There is virtually no self-build (and consequently , no self-upgrade or self-repair) capabilities for notebooks. And never will be.

 

I understand now. It's a shame that the notebook industry has ended up this way where manufacturers keep their low end models as cheap as possible, at the expense of quality, in an effort to sell more machines than competing brands. However, it's a business model that works for them, and consumers think they are buying a quality product because it is a well known brand.

Thankfully, there still are some manufacturers who provide quality even in their cheapest models.

 

""Okay. Then show us reports that show where manufactures INTENTIONALLY design and manufacture IN features that are designed specifically to thwart users from doing self maintenance.""

You don't really believe manufacturers are actually going to report this, do you? as I said, I will stick to what I said, but everyone has the right to their own opinion

 

I Had a Dell laptop 15.6 not long ago and its build quality was horrible,the lid was flimsy and the whole design was crapy and the keys would rattle while typing. now I have a late 2009 macbook and its very solid made everything about it.Keyboard keys are nice and smooth and quiet and the polycarbonate body is very well constructed.
I can access the internals with a small tweaker philips screwdriver and remove 8 screws from the bottom cover.

As far as windows Laptops IMO Lenovo external build quality seems to be better the most other brands I have seen or tried.maybe not like the old IBM but still pretty good.

 

That is a big problem with brands like Dell and HP and others too, is that the quality of their low end products is not very good. However they do make better quality business laptops. Despite this I would not own a noteobok made by either of their brands, I'd rather support a brand which makes quality products accross its entire product line.

Definately. The quality of their IdeaPad range is not as good as for the ThinkPads, but from what I've heard it is still quite reasonable. I have to give out good marks for Compal as well. My Compal laptop (yes Compal, not Compaq) has stood up to nearly six years of daily use, often being used for many hours a day, and still works flawlessly. There are no problems with any of the keys, and I've had no problems with the hinges for the lid - they have not become even the slightest bit loose after opening and closing the lid thousands of times. Also, I've never had to get it repaired. Presumably I will get at least a few more years of use out it before I even think of replacing it.

Actually for my other elctronics items e.g. phones, tablets I buy very cheap products directly from China. However for laptops I prefer to stick to high quality brands.

 

Well I think they do, but as Bill said the cost is a big factor here. If it was cheaper to make products easily maintainable, then make them hard to maintain, then I think we would be seeing more products which are easier to maintain.

 

Off topic a bit but I just looked at Lenovo website to see the ThinkPad X1 Carbon fiber Laptop,I want one now.For now I will have to drool over it.

 

Absolutely! But in technical discussions, there should be some real evidence to base it on, don't you think?

Cool! Thanks for keeping an open mind on this. When so much of what we hear is all about profit, it is often hard to see there are other influences that shape the way things are too - like user demand and even the weather (thinking about flooded hard drive factories creating a boon for SSD makers).

A shame? They are providing what consumers are asking for - small, cheap notebooks! Users are not demanding maintenance features or upgrade options.

You say at the expense of quality, I disagree, almost completely. Lack of quality suggests premature failures and that is not happening - at least on the electronics side. Even cheap notebooks tend to be very reliable - like the vast majority of consumer electronics. And that's in spite of the fact they get banged and tossed about, if not dropped.

Oh, BTW - the need for ruggedness is a primary reason to avoid as many "soft" connections (sockets, slots, cable connectors) as possible, and stick to permanent, robust mounting techniques (direct solder and surface mount) in portable devices.

That said, is it fair to blame eMachines if the Western Digital HD fails? Or the NVIDIA GPU? Or Creative sound device? Now if the case falls apart first time you open it, that's on eMachines!

As far as manufacturers keeping their low-end models as cheap as possible - isn't that the very definition of "low-end"? Middle school and certainly High School kids all need computers - typically they are required, and rarely provided by the school district. So that leave the parents to foot the bill. Even if by the school district, that's taxpayer's money there.

Where can notebook makers cut costs when very few notebook makers actually make any of their own parts? It is really ONLY the notebook cases that differentiates the notebooks (within each price category) - not what's inside!

Of course not.

But understand what both of you are suggesting. You are suggesting engineers and management at Acer/Gateway/eMachines, Dell, HP, Toshiba, Lenova, Sony (and all the others) are sitting around the product design tables discussing (conspiring!) how to intentionally make it hard for notebook buyers to do their own maintenance.

Then the plan is approved by said management - and not by an under-the-table handshake for everyone to keep quiet either.

That's multiple, HUGE international industries (and regulators/government officials!) conspiring to intentionally screw-over consumers (the world!) with absolutely zero evidence to support that "opinion". While it may appear that is what is happening, no way! There are too many consumer protection watchdogs and groups, laws and regulations - here in the US, EU, and via the UN to ensure that is not happening - at not in the "free world".

I might buy that for notebooks made and sold only in China, North Korea, or Somalia where oppressive, corrupt government leaders turn a blind eye (while lining their pockets) - but not the rest of the world.

Why aren't big screen TVs easy to open for cleaning? They have dedicated computers, fans, AC to DC power supplies, even Internet connections inside. Plus they are huge, unlike tiny notebooks. The reason why is simple - there are no "user serviceable" parts inside. No upgradable, socketed/removable parts inside. Notebooks are the same way. They provide access covers for those things you do need access to, and that's it.

Why? Because that's what users expect! No maintenance! Just like their big screen TVs, microwave ovens, tablets, home theater receivers, game consoles, cell phones, dishwasher and washing machine.

I say again, notebooks are NOT desktop replacements. The inability to upgrade parts and easy access for user maintenance are but two very important reasons why.


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Me too. I've played with a couple Ultrabooks and like them. And I was worried when Leveno bought out IBM's personal computer division that quality and innovation would drop, but it has not on both fronts.

Still, with cyber-security and warfare being a (the?) top concern for our futures, I sure wish so much of our computing hardware was not made (or at least programmed) over there.

 

I remember when you bought an OEM desktop, you would get a pretty standard motherboard form intel or one of the other major manufacturers. I recently looked at Dell desktop on sale at Staples, wrote down the service tag and did some investigating. Turns out the motherboard was something special build by a company I never knew existed. I guess my next desktop will be a self-build. At least I will be able to know what I am putting in to it.

 

Sure. ASUS, Foxconn, MSI, Chaintech all started out supplying OEM boards to the big makers - and still do. Dell is not a motherboard maker. They "assemble" computers.

 

Proprietary motherboards have been common for a long time and Dell is certainly not new to that game. Those specific examples Tech Republic gave are actually part of a larger "make hard to troubleshoot and repair" pattern which includes non-standard components, inaccessible or crippled diagnostic interfaces, proprietary diagnostic protocols and equipment, components designed to be damaged upon removal, etc that spans many industries.

The "must buy proprietary/non-standard replacement parts", "need factory provided repair", "less repair, more replacement purchases", etc models often work unfortunately. Not very well from the consumer's point of view of course, but certainly from the maximize business profits point of view.

 

""But understand what both of you are suggesting. You are suggesting engineers and management at Acer/Gateway/eMachines, Dell, HP, Toshiba, Lenova, Sony (and all the others) are sitting around the product design tables discussing (conspiring!) how to intentionally make it hard for notebook buyers to do their own maintenance.""

And almost all corporations do everything they can think of to get you to
spend as much money as possible, I used to be in marketing for years and
believe me we used to have what we called think-tanks where all we did
was to try to figure out ways of getting into your pockets and I would say
ALL company's do this, so to answer the question is "YES" and a lot more
as much as they can possibly get away with

 

I'm not saying the quality of low end notebooks is terrible, but it is my opinion that you will get a better quality low end notebook from ASUS, Compal or Sager/Clevo than you will from some of the big brands.

 

They are not really proprietary in the sense of a unique design, or that it functions in a unique way. They are really just "branded" OEM boards. For example, ASUS and Foxconn are major suppliers of motherboards for computer makers (PC and notebooks). The boards are actually standard ATX (or µATX) form factor boards, identical to those sold directly to consumers or to computer makers - except maybe just one tiny letter off in the part number, a different sticker, and typically the BIOS has been branded too in the OEM versions (which is really what then makes it work with that one brand - and thus the "proprietary" tag).

All the more reason to shop around to see what's inside the box. The problem with going with some of the lessor known brands is warranty support may not be up to the level as the big guys. And for portable devices that can be a problem if you travel overseas. For example, pretty sure Compal is not sold in the US. However, they are a HUGE OEM provider for many computer makers who do operate here.

So once again, even Compal, Sagar/Clevo just assemble parts made by someone else.

Of course they do. And I don't have a problem with that. But all companies also know that repeat customers (and their happy friends) are who will carry the company into the future. It is much better to make $75 profit twice than it is to make $100 once.

 

No, I was talking about proprietary as in custom connectors, pinouts, form factors, so forth. The types of things that prevent one from doing a drop in replacement using standard parts. Dell is one manufacturer that was well known for that (I purchased many Dimensions over the years). If they finally and fully got away from that in recent models (?) that would be good news. Santa is going to have to buy *something* for Christmas this year.

 

Yeah, but that's not really happening any more. They got slammed (big time) when users wanted to upgrade their graphics cards on PC (for one good example) but to do that, they needed a bigger PSU first. But the companies would swapped a wire pair around in their PSUs and boards forcing users to buy only their provided PSUs (which, except for that one wire pair, they were ATX PSUs).

Too many users fried their boards when connecting real ATX PSUs, or were upset (to put it nicely), upgrades were not available or too expensive. Or in some cases, connected their OEM PSUs to other motherboards with dire consequences.

You have to remember that today, even in notebooks, they still buy their RAM, drives, and just about everything else from other (though related) industries. Western Digital is not going to make a unique (proprietary) connector for Sony, another for Dell, another for HP, etc.

The big thing with notebooks is it does not matter where any of the "fixed" external connections are going to appear on the case exterior. A USB port can be on the left, right, front, back. But on a PC, it MUST appear (as required by the ATX Form Factor standard) in the rear I/O panel area with the graphics, audio and other standard ports, to ensure it appears correctly once installed in the (and ATX) case.

Generally, with PCs, proprietary is not a problem. However, some assembly techniques may. I have had cases, for example, that used tines punched out of the motherboard mounting panel that were then twisted and crimped down to secure the motherboard in place, instead of standoffs and mounting screws. Removing the motherboard (untwisting and unbending the tines) ended up with so many broken tines, a new case was needed.

Notebooks will always have proprietary issues.

I've been building my own PCs for 20 years. But if you are not into that (and no shame there) I would recommend a local builder who builds the machine for you - a shop, not the kid down the street. It will cost a bit more, but you will get better support and a machine better suited to your needs, and none of the fluff and other junk the factories will foist on the machine.

 

I 100% disagree. It depends on a brand of a notebook.

 

Oh? Please provide a link to a notebook that is easy for normal users to open up and replace parts. Frankly, I have NEVER seen a notebook that accommodates maintenance so I would be very interested in that.

 

It depends on what you are talking about. On many notebooks the bottom of the notebook is easy accessible, so that any parts on the motherboard can be accessed.

 

@Roger - please note the following sequence of comments.

And your response? It depends. Thanks.

So I ask again, please provide a link to a notebook designed to make it easy for "normal users" to open up and "replace" parts.

And note normal users "replacing" and "upgrading" parts on these proprietary machines is what this topic is about. Not just "access".

Exceptions do NOT make the rule! By far, the vast majority, if not all notebooks do NOT fully open up for easy access. You are lucky to have little access panels to add RAM or maybe clean the CPU fan.

But still, not wanting to automatically assume, I ask you provide a link to just one notebook (one exception) that was designed to make it easy for "normal" users to open up and do maintenance.

 

My 2 thinkpad notebooks:
1) thinkpad x120e
2) thinkpad T23
Both require 1 or 2 screws removal to replace HDD and RAM. And these parts are easier to remove than on desktops, where you most often have to remove 4 screws!