FBI must cough up Carnivore info

Discussion in 'privacy general' started by Paul Wilders, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    Read the full story:

    http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-870178.html
     
  2. Mr.Blaze

    Mr.Blaze The Newbie Welcome Wagon

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    Yesssssssssssssss Stick it to them stick it to those mofos i knew that freadom of information act was the loop hole guess what this opens up to.

    now trojan and viruse companys may have aces to green lantern as well as off shore companys yesssssssssssssss yessssss by by geen lantern mawwwwwwwwwwhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

    finaly some one socket it to the goverment yesssssssssssssssssssssssssss
     
  3. Response

    Response Guest

    In September 2000, the Justice Department commissioned IIT Research Institute, an arm of the Illinois Institute of Technology, to undergo a review of Carnivore. Two months later, the institute released its findings, saying the technology "protects privacy and enables lawful surveillance better than alternatives." The report said Carnivore provides investigators with no more information than is permitted by a given court order and that it poses no risk to Internet service providers.
     
  4. luv2bsecure

    luv2bsecure Infrequent Poster

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    What a load of $%#@$ !!!!!!!!!
    You managed to REALLY &%$$ me off!!
    I wonder who "Response" could be? A spook? A spook-friendly member posting anonymously? Whoever "Response" is they are fundamentally dishonest spreading disinformation by omission.

    Hey, if you're going to come in here and post on this board, let's at least be honest and give ALL the facts.  Especially if you're going to cut n' paste from an article without telling the WHOLE truth.

    I got a little hot under the collar reading your piece. I remember, very well, the report from the Illinois Institute of Technology being roundly criticized by privacy groups and even security pros like Matt Blaze (  http://www.crypto.com/ ) who blasted the report as a sham. I REMEMBERED WELL,  So I went hunting.

    And what do you knowo_O Your post was lifted nearly word for word from a  CNET article from November 22nd, 2000. (A date (11-22) the FBI should remember well -- Dallas, Texas? 1963?) In fact, your final paragraph WAS word for word.

    If you are going to quote verbatim from an article, at least be HONEST about it! What else, "Response," did that same article say?

    Well, let's see, you might have been honest and mentioned that (quoting from the SAME article you lifted your post from):  Several prominent universities, including the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), backed out of the application process after the Justice Department released the guidelines for the study, saying restrictions placed on the scope of the review took away from its independence.

    When IIT was chosen to perform the review, critics said it would not be independent because the IIT reviewers were government insiders.

    For example, Dean Henry H. Perritt from the university advised President Clinton's transition team on information policy. Other members of the university's review team have either worked in the past on government projects or hold active security clearances.


    And here's the REAL KICKER from right after they had selected Illinois Institute of Technology and didn't want people to know the above:
    (From the same article you ripped your post off from)

    The Justice Department had blacked out this information when it released a document about the selected team. However, people reading the documents with Adobe software were able to view the unaltered document, which adds to suspicions about the review process.

    The link that Mr. Wilder posted was about the court ruling against the FBI in its long fight with EPIC (which, by the way, the "bureau" is losing at every turn). The final insult from your plagiarized post was that this suit was mentioned in this very article from CNET with these words, "EPIC sued the FBI for information through the Freedom of Information Act and is conducting its own analysis.

    In a second batch of paperwork received from the FBI last week, EPIC concluded that Carnivore can capture and archive "unfiltered" Internet traffic--contrary to FBI assertions.

    "The little information that has become public raises serious questions about the privacy implications of this technology," EPIC general counsel David Sobel said in a statement. "The American public cannot be expected to accept an Internet snooping system that is veiled in secrecy."


    Anybody wanna read the article in CNET from 2000?
    http://news.com.com/2100-1023-248954.html?legacy=cnet

    "Response," you can't come into this forum and attempt to trick us with disinformation that has been thoroughly discredited. But, good try. People here are smarter than you may realize. It makes me think you ARE with the "bureau" as your post of disinformation is  about the quality of work we've come to expect the last few years from the FBI. How pathetic.

    John Little.......That's spelled L-i-t-t-l-e.
     
  5. Detox

    Detox Retired Moderator

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    Excellent work Luv2b!! Quite an eyeopener for those of us who are a little (ok a lot) behind on news like this.
     
  6. FanJ

    FanJ Guest

    I second that.

    Thanks John.
     
  7. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Omm...Omm...Omm...
     
  8. luv2bsecure

    luv2bsecure Infrequent Poster

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    Deeeeeep Breath.
    one.
    two.
    three.
    HOLD
    and exhale.
    Omm...Omm...Omm...
    Checkout, could you relight the incense?
    We're getting pretty good at this!
    :)
    John

     
  9. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Drink this.  It'll make you feel relaxed.
    Eat this.  It'll make you sleepy.
    Smoke this.  It'll tighten your wig.

    (Hic)

    Privacy...Omm...Security...Omm...Out-of-body-experiences...Omm...
     
  10. Jooske

    Jooske Registered Member

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    Not only not the American public. Remember the Netherlands is famous for being the most phone/wire tapped country in the world. Not that we really worry, think people just as easy call the national security services to give them something to look at.
    Read yesterday some kind of equivalent in Australia with changing the definition who or what is a terrorist so they can use any kind of system to snoop on citizens and without any reasons. Of course one can expect to locate suspects they will include the computer snooping.
    Trying to find back the URL with that article for you, will edit when i find it back.
     
  11. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Perhaps "Response" (if he/she really is a member of the EffingBI) can help out here.  :D
     
  12. FanJ

    FanJ Guest

    Eh?
     
  13. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    John - Good catch! I read 'Response's' post yesterday, but by the time I finished rolling around on the floor laughing, I had to get ready for work!

    Noticed he/she/it hasn't posted back to the thread (their computer is probably still smoking from your response - keyboard too hot to touch  <g> ) , but let me just throw in an observation:

    In all my dealings with people in various places when trying to rouse them about the latest government rape of their privacy, I notice that there are many people who, far from being government agents themselves, are simply terrified to even contemplate the fact that our government would do these kinds of things to them.

    Their responses/defenses are explained quite simply - it's DENIAL of the problem, and they'll use whatever lame 'study' is available to re-assure themselves that all is right with their world, or fall back on the 'If you don't have anything to hide, why should you care what the government does?" non-argument.

    They simply can't handle what's going on these days and their response is to stick their heads up their - um, in the sand, that is.

    That's not to say that there aren't people out there deliberately spreading mis-information about these issues - there are and they do - but the greatest threat to our personal liberty today as a country isn't those people, it's the people who will not acknowledge (or do anything about)  the problem when it's staring them in the face.

    Apathy and denial, pure and simple, has brought us to where we are today - it'll eventually destroy us if something doesn't change. Pete
     
  14. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Nixon.  Hoover.  North.  Echelon.  Carnivore.  Magic Lantern.  Hey, what's not to trust?
     
  15. Blacksheep

    Blacksheep Spyware Fighter

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    I propose a toast to watchdogs who expose dirty deeds to the light of day!
     
  16. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    And I will gladly raise my glass with yours, Blacksheep -
    to freedom! Pete
     
  17. Response

    Response Guest

    Hey pete,

    How are you doing?

    Wonder if any of you read the full article that Paul posted.

    Go back and read the whole article ..especially the last paragraph. Then look at my post.


    Look familiaro_Oo_O

    As you see...I posted not one word of my own..to paraphase or comment.


    I just wanted to see if everyone was awake over here.


    Be Well people.

    Name Game, Backstroke, New Years..Time Out for now!


    Gald to see your forum is thriving.
     
  18. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    Who was that masked man? :) Pete
     
  19. Response

    Response Guest

    BTW

    I posted it since the author of that article end up his piece as those words being the "current" response from the Justice Department on the current issue.


    It is not their response at all. But he put it there for a reason... then wrote no more. What he should have done is more research just like
    luv2bsecure has already done.

    I too got hot under the collar when I read that...for all the same reasons all of you are now taking another look at it.
     
  20. luv2bsecure

    luv2bsecure Infrequent Poster

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    Response:  You are right - the article that was linked in the first post that started this thread included the same language. CNet is getting lazy in lifting from their past stories (by two different writers.) When you post something without attribution, whether it was from an article today or two years ago on the same subject, most would assume you lifted the written piece as your own. But, I'll give you that one - it was in both articles. So, what that tells us is that Pete was right when he wrote:
    Obviously, you wouldn't have cut 'n pasted the final paragraph one for word if it wasn't meant as a comment from you. Hence your name of "Response" when you posted as an unregistered visitor.  So, what changes from my original response to your "response" is that I know you're probably not from the FBI, as you took your post from the latest article rather than the older one that explained the problems with the study. And that is what matters here. What I should have done was level my aim at you for gullibility and CNet for their inexcusable failure to remind readers that the IIT study has been completely discredited.

    I know by the time I got to the final paragraph of the latest CNet article I had smoke coming out of my ears from someone even TRYING to use that flawed IIT study as anything but a front job for Carnivore. (Especially considering the individuals involved.) So my criticism stands even as I am quite relieved that "Response" didn't apparently know what he was defending when he cut 'n pasted from the latest article. At least, I hope not. My apologies for having you pegged as a spook. If you didn't know, you didn't know. I also apologize for having you pegged as a plagiarizer. Understand I had no idea you were posting from the article word for word. It was a comment all its own, especially when coupled with the visitor name you used -- "Response." You chose to just post part of the article and that's where I am angered by CNet for not telling the whole story about the ITT study in this latest article - as they did so well in their other.

    I agree with Pete's astute observation that one doesn't have to be a spook to buy this stuff, but merely in denial about what's going on with Carnivore and the FBI's claim of integrity in their use of it and their false insistence it cannot do more than their claims. I hope you are not so naive as to feel the FBI is an agency full of good old boys who wouldn't dare abuse such technology. Why not join us here for more discussion?

    Or.... am I being paranoid if a small part of me wonders if you already are here with us? I must admit though, my paranoia has been running high of late knowing that under the guise of the (anti) PATRIOT ACT the spooks are having a field day. But then again, I bet a lot of us wonder when a visitor drops by for a thought if its not a member making a point without having to answer for it. It wouldn't be the first time. If this whole issue of the FBI/EPIC face-off and the "truth about Carnivore" is of intense interest to anyone, please email me as I have tons of things I could send you to review.

    John Little ( I only spell my last name for freedom-busting spooks.)
     
  21. Response

    Response Guest

    The Court Order

    I have some more time right now..the day the court order came out on this recent decision I had a copy of it.

    This is what it says....

    This IS the Court Order
    http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/court_order.html

    I know exactly what it means and I do not need someone from zdnet, cnn, the washington post, or
    newsbytes to interpret what it means.

    http://www.newsbytes.com/news/02/175507.html

    All these guys are looking for an angle and copy each other for their news outlet.

    I like to read the "facts," and not interviews from either side as to what the judge's decision means>
     
  22. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    John - I think it's writerranger jerking our chain, waddayou think? And where's that article I saw earlier this morning about how Carnivore is a whole lot less selective in what it collects than the FBI originally would have had us believe (something from EPIC, I believe). Pete
     
  23. luv2bsecure

    luv2bsecure Infrequent Poster

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    Okay...

    Response: Just how DO you feel about the issue at hand? Maybe I have you pegged all wrong. I just posted my last thing and read your "BTW" and now I am confused. You have now posted before I did and seemed as put out as me that the CNet articles are different (in that this latest one wrote what you pasted in your post without the further reporting of the questions about the review process and the final results of the ITT study.) Are you saying you agree with all of those who have blasted the IIT Report? Even after learning that was a paste from the latest article, I assumed you were defending the benign nature of Carnivore (mainly because of the name you chose "Response"). I was glad to read your latest post as it sounds like you are actually agreeing with what I wrote concerning the "independent report." Just confused by the name, etc. That's why maybe just a sentence or two along with your original posting of a paragraph from the article would have helped. If you are on board and don't actually buy that IIT study, I am glad to know that.

    BTW, I have written to CNet about their mentioning the IIT Report in this latest article on EPIC's win in court without mentioning all they have reported in the past. I'll keep everyone posted as to whether I receive a reply.

    John
     
  24. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    lol! Dueling posts at the SAME minute!

    Response - Welcome to the forum!

    Seriously suggest you register - you see how fast un-registered posters get less-than-savory reps attributed to them? :) Whether it's deserved or not?

    (John, that's no reflection on you whatsoever, I was thinking the same things after his first post!). Pete
     
  25. luv2bsecure

    luv2bsecure Infrequent Poster

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    Everytime I post, Response has posted something else right after I hit "post". Now, it looks like you WERE with EPIC all along. Now I really wish you would have added something to your paste from the CNET article. If you are  as involved and interested as you appear to be, I am very, very curious why you posted just that pasted paragraph under the name of "Response" and without comment? Just really curious as much as anything.  It sounds like you could have had a lot to offer.

    Pete, that article about EPIC's arguments was the link in Mr. Wilder's original post. That was the CNET article dated March 27th. EPIC's involvement in the suit and information on all litigation over Carnivore can be found at http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/  

    You might also be interested to know, if you haven't seen the news already, that EPIC filed suit yesterday against Tom Ridge's Office of Homeland Security over their secret plans on the National ID card. I would have mentioned this earlier, but we've been dealing with this interesting post from "Response" which seemed to be a defense of the FBI in their defense against the EPIC lawsuit.

    Whew!

    John  
     
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