BOClean same story that TDS ?

I wonder what the governments and all other customers of mr BoClean do when they read his pieces here WITH all ThE STraNgE letter switches... Thank all that we have other companies with less irritating people leading it...

 

What the market place demands are results and as long as Kevin delivers he'll be fine. I can tell you that if something unwanted invades my computer the last thing I will be thinking about is a product developers personality or lack thereof. Most of us don't really know Andreas, Magnus or Kevin. Most of us only know them from this forum and the public face they show us here. Which may or may not have much resemblance to the way they truly are. Business cares little if you are a "nice guy." Many of our "Captains of Industry" have been revealed to be real jerks. But we by their products and drive their cars because they have met the needs of the market place. If any of these three think they have invented a better mouse trap let them bring it to market and the market place will decide. Business cares little if you've won a Mr.Congeniality award. I have Kevin's product at present and he has been great when I have emailed support regarding a problem. So that is what I look at. I am sure others can say the same for Andreas and Magnus. It's game on guys. You are all developing new products or enhancing your existing one. Show us what ya got and bring your best stuff.

 

Hello,

First of all I hope anyone I mention here does not take my comments personally. I am not here to criticize anyone, and certainly not the way they do their business.

I haven’t been to Wilders for almost a year, until a few days ago when I was drawn back here after reading about HIPS test and very positive and strong positive opinion from richrf in a thread at Broadband Reports. It is interesting because I practically lived on Wilders a long before I joined and it was the only security forum I visited and dared to post. It is interesting that I stopped visiting right after they converted to vB. Isn’t it “marketed” as bulletin board that attracts members? Just a small comment and interesting observation – I use vB myself.

Anyhow, being interested in what is all this hype about HIPS here, since I didn’t see anyone on BBR discussing it, at least not on same magnitude as here, I started reading a several non-company related forums. So far, I’ve seen and read some interesting threads and posts. I’m usually highly impressed with posters. No matter if I (dis)agree. Even though there are several companies who have their official forums here, many regular posters are open minded towards other products.

The TDS-3 announcement shocked me enormously, believed it or not. I have not visited Wilders in a long time and I have not seen any talk or any indication in other forums I visit that something like that could happen soon. This also contributed in me paying attention to Wilders in past few days.

Kevin, I appreciate you taking time to talk to your customers and explaining them your company’s goals, why BOClean is the way it is, and what can we expect in the future from you. That is more than most people/companies are willing to share with their customers. Usually you have to sign loads of NDAs to find out that Norton will have a new icon in version 2006. However, I am fairly disappointed to read your posts in TDS-3 thread Magnus linked to. I know that you or anyone couldn’t care less what I think, especially since I’m not your customer, but outbursts like that don’t make anyone have positive opinion about a company. I know, because I went through same with Invision Power Services. Being their user from day one, with release of v2 and having new management, loving their product, I got, pardon my language, screwed over like millions (?) of others, made me switch to vB, not because their product is superior, more over, my users like IPB better, I find it easier to manage, and I miss some fairly important features I used daily, but it is rather the way they carried out their announcement to stop free service that made me bitter in every way. Their product is great, however the way they threat their customers is not! Banning their customers for positively criticizing their product and lying and trying to cover up things they said by purging thousands of threads and leaving their users dry, is what made me stay away from them. I like and I’m happy with vB. I’ve NEVER seen anything negative (nasty) being allowed to be said on vB forums regarding competition and seeing them providing info and being honest what their product can(not) do made me switch. What does IPS and vB have to do anything with what you? Well, I meant saying some things to your competition, no matter how your relation might be is not a good idea. While I understand you are just human and we all have bad days, it would be wise to just let it go in the future and cool off before replying. Saying as an administrator who got into fairly nasty discussions with members over some decisions made on forums. It could be interpreted in the same way, I believe. Having seen not a one bad comment about BOClean, I would hate to see anyone disliking it because of personal remarks being exchanged. While majority of your customers could not care less, some might.

Personally, I’m not amused by comments being exchanged and with “accusations being made”. I have nothing against you, Mischel, Wayne or anyone here. I just don’t understand your comment regarding TH being one of the reasons for TDS-3 discontinuation. With all do respect to all three of you, Wayne or anyone cannot say he (or should I say TDS?) made such crucial decision in one night! I myself am junior, hopefully senior by next month, who studies management with major in Finance and Accounting. While my limited (non-existent if you don’t count internships I do during summer) experience in corporate world cannot be compared in any way to Wayne’s 18 years and, your 10 (?), I am more than positive such decision should have been obvious to DCS a long time before it was announced. While I am not aware who manages DCS business, who’s who, what is your relation with them, what is relation between AT vendors, one cannot blame other for their business decisions. And I am speaking with highly limited knowledge of your personal relations and quarrels you have/had between you.

If you allow me to explain myself – While I have no idea who picked on who in AT business, it’s wrong to assume and blame other companies for one’s failure (company = TDS, sorry for equalling those), IMO. You guys run your own businesses, and blaming others for not sharing stuff, for being competitive, lowering/increasing prices, for having free version, for having different goals, different business model is not a valid fact. Noone stops anyone to whatever they want with their company/product. You are not a cartel, and even those who sign a contract, are known to break it. Having a market where everyone follows same model, offer same products is bad for customers, because they gain nothing. Then it would just be a matter of preference. AV market is somewhat different, they incorporate detection for trojans, spyware… and distinct themselves somehow – some have good heuristics, some strong signatures, some are light, some are popular brand names, some proudly emphasize they have the best response times (issuing new definitions), and so on, I have yet to see that sort of thing between AT products. While some are trying to focus on other things than trojans, majority does not.

Ideally, DSC (whoever is a manager) should have predicted what is going to happen with one of their products. They must have known the cost of having it and whether or not it is profitable. With all data and experience they have/had they must have known it’s going to happen “a long time before” it did. Saying (generally speaking) it is someone else’s fault they could not keep up with competition is not valid. It is someone’s fault – the management’s. I don’t wish to piss off anyone, if you see it that way I apologise, I am merely looking at things from business perspective rather than personal. It’s the management who runs the business, who makes decisions, who should know what long term goal is, what company can and cannot do/provide, what should they do after….not some third party. I am sorry to see such sudden decision. As I said, ideally, the management should have “see it coming” and stopped selling the product months ago, issue announcement where they would say they will be providing support/upgrades/definitions to a product until or for X months, after which users will have to find another solution. Saying this was sudden decision only makes me wonder about the people who run the company and have been in the business for almost as I am old. If you’re present for so long, you should have, and I’m aware that’s not always the case, more knowledge than a person/company who is new comer on the market. On the other hand, I understand Wayne completely, and he is correct with every point he made. Companies which are not afraid to make decisions which benefit them and their customers are survivors. I admire that. It takes a lot of courage to do it and I doubt I would be able to make one myself. While I made comparison with IPB, mostly due to fact it was carried out similarly, it is was not meant in a bad manner. Wayne did the right thing. He offered an apology (more than IPB customers/users were ever given), and a license to another product. He did not have to, but he did, and it speaks much about him. While we can debate on what should have been done and how, it’s over now and it’s too late to debate it, IMO.

Another thing I am not humoured about is starting a discussion that should have never taken place. As much as I said some things to Kevin, for which I hope he doesn’t take it (too) personal, I am not thrilled to see Mischel turning TDS-3 thread upside down, and now here. You both take it as you wish, however, I honestly think you should either respect each other, or take it in private. It does not make both of you look good. It takes two to tango.

There were some other things I wanted to clarify, however, I won’t. I apologise for being utterly long, talking about some maybe irrelevant things… My intention is not to start a discussion about TDS-3 all over again, nor is it to criticize anyone how to do/run their business. I have nothing against either of you. I’m just rather disappointed with scarce explanations given, and some facts being raised that should not matter.

I wish you all good luck with your products. While I tried all but BOClean, due to fact there is no trial (but heard nothing but positive), I hope your good reputation and of your programs should not be affected by recent/past events.

Excuse my bad English as well. I hope no people were put asleep by reading this.

Regards,

r.

 

A balanced and well thought out post richter.

 

Excuse me for another drunken stuper posts.

For those that wonder about the VENDERS, Be assured they know some of the blackhat programmers as well as each other.

Here is what HaCkEr DeFeNdEr ( holy father ) has to say.

"available antivirus systems are KAV, Norton, AVG, Panda, McAfee, NOD32, Avast! and PC-cillin, if you need antidetection against any other antivirus it is not general problem, just ask

this is PER VERSION price, e.g. antidetection against Kernel PS 0.3, 0.4 and 1.0 is + € 90.00 not + € 30.00, but there are exceptions in this, these versions are for single price:
F-Secure BlackLight 1.0.1017.0, 1.2.1003.0
F-Secure BlackLight console 1.25.1006.0, 1.28.1006.0
Sysinternals RootkitRevealer v1.00, v1.01, v1.10, v1.20
Sysinternals RootkitRevealer v1.31, v1.32, v1.33, v1.40, v1.51, v1.53, v1.54, v1.55
Malicious Software Removal Tool 1.3.586.0, 1.4.639.0, 1.5.661.0, 1.6.710.0, 1.7.755.0
RootKit Shark 3.11, 3.22, 3.27
FHS 1.0, 1.1
UnHackMe 1.0, 2.0
UnHackMe 2.5 beta, 2.5 beta 2, 2.5
modGREPER 0.1, 0.2 "

I see no mention of Trojan Hunter, BoClean or TDS-4 ( oopsss) he he

If Kevin say Rootkits are no problem for him, I will go with that. Don't know he is talking the "private builds"

If the others ARE doing work for the GOV, then I am sure they have had intensive background checks as Kevin has. Um Duh?

controler

 

Thanks, but you summarized everything I wanted to say in a few sentences just above, lol.

 

Maybe Holy Father is not such a bad guy. What do you think?

From the hacdef blog:


anonym -

$$$ is at the root of all that is evil. There are also two sides to every coin.

As an example:
Imagine that there were no files that are to be marked as "viruses." Then there would be no need for Anti-Virus software; therefore, no more $$$ for the chosen professions of those working in Anti-Virus tech.

I can see how one who actually makes money off of viruses (anti-virus) would stand up as righteous and call those who support their jobs the "bad guys." An interesting marketing gimmick that is.

When there are people that make the jobs of anti-virus a difficult task by doing their own form of "anti" work (anti-anti-virus?)... I can see how these people could be labeled a collaborator to the "bad guys" (or girls).

What I can make of this is the anti-detection service offered here is quite possibly cutting into the almighty dollar of the detection services, and because of a hobby at best. So, yes, it is a very bad and evil thing depending on which side you're on...

 

i wasn't aware that Richrf was also a developer.

Semantics . So if we switched from calling someone a professional instead of expert it makes things better? Whether you choose to use the tag expert or professional, it goes without saying there are precious few of them around here.

So am I a "professional" because I contributed to a security article you found enlightening?

 

Semantics can be important. It is all in the eye of the beholder. I have done a little studying as a "amateur" on the field of semantics and also hypnotism.

Apparently, people can be influenced by the labels they put on things. Label someone a "physician" and automatically people think they know more about health then they do and this may or may not be true....how do you know the person doesn't have a "fake" physician's license?

I choose not to be influenced by "experts" because I have chosen to attach certain meanings to that word that I have a disdain for.

The word "professsional" is different to me in that it also means having certain standards of conduct, like having a "real" physician's license rather than a "fake" one. To me, a person can have all the knowledge in the world and if they don't conduct themselves in a "proper" manner, then they don't carry as much weight with me.

I don't consider myself a professional in the software industry for two reasons. I don't have the knowledge level and I sometimes engage in needless ego "headbanging" with others when it really is not necesarry.

It is fairly easy for me to observe the "professionals" on here. They impart knowledge to others and don't have to go out of their way to make "amateurs" feel inferior......but all words are semantics any way, so none of what I said really matters.

The "experts" know who they are and the "professionals" know who they are too but all of this is neither here nor there....and off-topic....so I'll stop now.....and get up enjoy this beautiful day.



Starrob

 

Starrob -
A good post - As an "amateur", I personally agree with the emphasized part regarding "professionals". That is the primary reason I continue to visit WSF as compared to some other forums.

Rob

 

The popcorns popping.